LeviathanTempest:ArchivedCosmology

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One of the important elements that's been informing our efforts to codify Leviathan and its world is the presence of the Primordial ocean, a layered reflection of the previously unsundered universe. The Tempest of the title is formulated as a force that occured around or due to the death of Tiamat as the "first progenitor," dividing the true Primordial Ocean from the world and causing the growing madness of the Tribe.

The Progenitors[edit]

Frank Trollman starts us off[edit]

"when Tiamat ruled the ocean in the before time, she had children beyond counting and those children were the inhabitants of the sea. But foremost of her followers were the Leviathan, which were divided into "schools" which partook of a different portion of Tiamat's multi-headed spirit.

And when Marduk killed Tiamat it poisoned the water and cut the Levithan off from her divine source. And they were no longer able to live alone in the sea, but were subjugated by humanity and forced to mingle their blood with man's. And now there is an awakening of the ancient blood of the sea as the last of the corners of the world are poisoned."

CasperLions follows up[edit]

The Leviathan were the high priests of civilization of Tiamat's brood on Earth. This civilization was composed of the Lahmasu subjects, those human breeding partners of weaker blood, and of the less perfect harmonies of the Primeval and this world, more twisted products of the difficult union: the Naga (brooded humanoid monsters) and the Typhons (giant sea monsters). Only the Leviathan managed to get the experiment right. The behemoths of the Primeval realm, which all together composed (or were extensions of) Tiamat, had tried to spread to the world, our world, which according to them Tiamat had given birth to. The Leviathan were successful because they had the bodies of humans in this world and the bodies of behemoths in the Primeval, they were the perfect joining of the two and could speak for both worlds.

With Tiamat's murder by the Marduk, the Leviathans think their spiritual extensions are the only behemoths left alive in the now corpse sea Primeval realm, which is just a bunch of giant corpse behemoths and parasites feeding on them otherwise, and the whole place is wracked by the Tempest, which flows through the Leviathan to this world as well. Some believe that the Leviathans are the conduit of the storm others believe that the Primeval as the mother realm is tied to this universe and Tiamat's murder is wracking it with or without the Leviathan's conduit. So now the Leviathan have the responsibility as the only things left. High priests left now with the gods dead, they have a responsibility to avenge their mother, to calm the Tempest, and for the actions their mad kin the gigantic Typhons and the Naga race perform without guidance from the mother.

Note: This was linked with the Caste and Role models for splats.

The Primordial Ocean and the Depths[edit]

Basically, extraplanar seas that are host to impossible or gargantuan life, as well as potentially containing ruins of the Tribe's lost society. The Leviathans can travel into the Depths, but something (The Tempest, a rift caused by the same, or a lack of appropriate knowledge) prevents them from ever arriving at the first waters.

An early model[edit]

"Before her murder, Tiamat was all things and all things were Tiamat, at least that is the way it was in the Primeval realm and so passed on origin into the realm of Earth. It's the instinct of every sound in the story of a tribesman's ancestors, therefore, to be assimilated by that all inclusive chaos while simultaneously struggling for distinction, for singular survival. Without the mother's touch anymore, this instinct is nothing short of a schitsophrenia of one's own self; flesh, bone, and spirit. Struggling to stay afloat in a storm that's not there, you create ripples which create a new storm radiating from yourself. The Leviathan is a fractured being, each and every one.

Instincts not meant for these aeons tearing the very being apart and letting the corruption of the dead sea of the Primeval, the stinking corpse-sea of Tiamat's realm from which the world was formed, seep into the cracks. Primeval parasites and the entropic rather than protean chaos that the Primeval has become, these taint the connection to the once great and terrible and pure in it's instincts of both creation and destruction Primeval realm. The Primeval as it was in the day of the mother is no more, in it's place a Tempest that has loomed over this world ever since."

"The original Primeval sea was so horrible, so wonderful to behold. Their ancestors before the fall, rather than imagining them as what, terrible beasts that lurked in the darkest abyssal regions of the world? The world was the abyss originally. This was a chaos of creation, which is true and important to note. The Tempest is the result of this being maligned, mutated into a chaos of decay. But both creation and decay require equal amounts of destruction. This is not lamenting the barbarity of the Leviathan's ancestors, that is something that should be reveled in even if few of the tribespeople do, which is their own failing, at least according to their legacy. This is the lamentation of the rot, of the decay, of the stagnation that has occured in the Primeval sea and thus become as there to here."

Concerns of Entry[edit]

"A sort of much more vicious Sea (the Rokea term for the Umbra in W:tA) then? I'd also suggest rivers or your swamp/marsh/bayou/bog areas being good spots to move through, since this is at least a bit about Swamp Monsters still. Maybe "dead water", places where the water has become stagnant, motionless, devoid of life are the only places where a Leviathan can migrate through to the other side, as a balance to the procreative force they exist as otherwise."

"How about this: a Leviathan can travel to the 'deep chaos realm' or whatever we're calling it through any pool of water of sufficient Size. However, in order to be a suitable vessel/passage, the pool must have been totally still and undisturbed for a number of consecutive hours equal to it's Size. The slightest gust of wind or drop of water will create ripples, resetting the clock, and of course any water under the influence of supernatural forces cannot be considered properly still. Crossing through the pool without disturbing it requires success on a roll of tranquility minus power stat; Leviathans with power stat higher than their tranquility have a hard time leaving and coming back in quick succession (particularly since they need larger pools to travel at all), and don't play well with others."

"It should be completely possible (and badass!) for a (higher level) Leviathan to jump out of an airplane in our world into a typhoon or hurricane and cross the Gatewaters if it is stormy enough, landing into the Tempest. Of course, a Leviathan in a boat or on a rock, or more than likely just swimming, in mortal waters in a storm would have an even easier time crossing the Gatewaters, as they're closer to their (figurative and literal) Element.

Snow, Ice, Rain, Fog, Algae, and even Mud and Blood should all be possible to use as Gatewaters, if not all equivalently easy. Blood, due to it's primal and occult nature, is probably more potent per-ounce and Depth."

"Crossing over to/from the Mortal World (needs better name!) and the Deep, you must use the Gatewaters. As discussed, I suggest either intense stillness, OR very stormy chaotic conditions, with different requisite, advantages and dangers for each.

Special effects-wise, the Gatewaters are someting akin to a miniature storm that comes over you (obscuring you and leaving you in the Deep). The gatewaters aren't really a place themselves (like the Hedge, it's more like the Gauntlet, but even then there were no Border Marches like the Gauntlet had) I'd say crossing over causes a LOT of collaterol damage. Using a pool causes it to fog the backyard and maybe splash out lots of water. Using a tub or whirlpool, even if you can, probably violently and dangerously spills the water everywhere, making a return trip to that tup impossible. The Gatewaters aren't a separate realm, they're just the edge, like the edge of water and air itself.

It should be more difficult to cross the Gatewaters into the Deep when you're inland on a continent. You can still do it in a lake or pond or swamp or river, but Oceans are easiest. Something about the salt. Although a subterranean cavern or vast swamp or big lake or raging river or mountain waterfall should work great. Even a liquid pool within a glacier.


I'd say the deeper in water, still or not, you are in this world, the easier it is to use cross the Gatewaters into the Deep. It can be done insomething as deep as a swimming pool, but it takes something extra to pull it off in a bath-tub: a powerful ritual or sacrifice or cult or maybe the tub is buried deep underground or is on a craggy mountain or in a swamp?"

Shaping things up a bit[edit]

"Maybe the Primordial Sea is the Abyss. Maybe it's not. Maybe Changeling Arcadia is Mage Arcadia. Maybe it's not. Maybe Pandemonium is the home of the Demons of Inferno. Maybe it's not. Maybe the source of the Principle and the Pyros is the Aether. Maybe it's not. Maybe the Underworld is Stygia. Maybe it's not.

Maybe the Primordial Sea is as dark and deadly as Stygia, and terrifying and purifying as Pandemonium, as chaotic and divine as the Aether, as anachronistic and fateful as Arcadia, and certainly as powerful in life as the Primal Wild.

Or maybe the Primordial Sea is what was there before the Abyss.

Maybe the Primordial Ocean was there before the Supernal, which are very human heavens for very human creatures. The Primordial Ocean is not Human. It was the 'heaven' for what came before humanity and Marduk.

Maybe the entire existance of the Supernal itself, not just the Abyss, is a cosmic usupation.

Maybe the "Dragons" as the mages call them, were traitors to their broods, and had sided with the apes to create the Tempest, and ascended to the new Supernal Realms as a way of "siding with the winners.""

Models of what's there[edit]

"You could look at movies such as The Abyss. Make it so that the deeper you go, the more primoridal the Earth has stayed; creatures like giant squid, crazy weird anglerfish, and other monstrosities on the level of the Leviathans' gigantic forms exist there, maybe even Leviathan-created gathering places where, through some eldritch magic, you can shift back to your less-than-monstrous form."

"About the Leviathan Otherworld (I favor calling it the Deep, for reasons you'll read below)...

The Spirit World is ultimately largely bidimensional, i.e. flat. The Hedge is a bit more complicated, but its chaotic nature makes it essentially directionless.

The Leviathan Otherworld has to be three-dimensional. You should be able to go front and back, left and right, but the most important travel you can do should be up or down.

In fact, depth can gradually subsume the other dimensions. That is, the closer you are to the surface of the Deep, the more space there is to do your own thing, almost overlapping with the real world. But whoever goes to the bottom will meet anyone else also striving for the bottom, and at the deepest of the deep, all of space is basically one point.

Cthulhu may, or may not, be sleeping at this point."

"Also as relevant as Depth (related? not related?) should be Tempest (Storm? Chaos?), how chaotic, raging, and maddening, mutating and/or soul-affecting the Storm of the Primordial Ocean is. Also, (related? not related?) is the Brine, the level of sickness, brackish, pollution of the water. Also, "Glow"? The amount of light and heat, maybe?

There are likely Currents that aren't entirely due to the Tempest, as well. Natural currents. Where do they flow? How are they (and all other attributes of the Deep) related to the Mortal Seas and Lands?

If the Deep (Primal/Primordial/Old - Sea/Ocean/Water) is the other world, then there should be islands of rock and substance in it. But what are they made of? How about slain Primordial God Monsters (the masters?), or perhaps the Bones of Tiamat herself? Islands of a great Depth are like meteors in the blackest of space, wereas Islands of a lesser Depth are like Islands in our world, and may in fact phase in and out of the Gatewaters into the regular old mortal world if the stars are right (see the story "Dagon" and R'lyeh? as well as Avalon Lumuria and the Burmuda Triangle stuff?).

At the "Surface" of the Deep, you're not in the mortal world, yet, but it might be easier to cross over not for Leviathans, but for MORTALS. Ships in the Burmuda Triangle often find their way onto the surface of the Deep. At the Surface, you do see the Above- the Sky of the Deep's dimension. Which I'd motion is almost ALWAYS storming or at the very least foggy, thundering in the distance, or heavily clouded. Sometimes at night you can see the alien stars and Moons (plural!), but all told, no Leviathan, Naga, Typhon, Armiger, Sister has seen the Indigo Sun from the surface of the Deep since Marduk... The Rememberers Remember, but that's what they do.

To distinguish the Surface of the Deep from the surface of our world, I'd say that it's not as... defined? The water keeps getting less dense like it does in Depth, but there's not as much of a clear demarcation between liquid and vapor? The whole Surface of the Deep isn't Fog, and you can breach and swim in it like regular water, and their are splashes and tides, but it'd be an easy way to tell the difference.

There are flying things that live in the Deep's Sloudy Sky. Echidna that stuff again, maybe? The Islands that break the surface host cities of thralls, cults, maybe Lahmasu and Leviathans. Naga? Annunaki? The rare very big islands that break the surface may host entirely non-aquatic or non-draconic primordial beasts. Other Cryptids?

Leviathans can walk around on the Deep's Islands fine, but they have to content with the hostile landscape and indigenous creatures.

There's nothing stopping a Leviathan from breaching the Deep's Surface (different from the Gatewaters) and going up into the sky, if they have the means such as blasphemous leathery wings or some kind of Tower of Babel or hang-glider. But like I said it's more often than not at least raining or windy or foggy, if not outright Tempest. But then they have to deal with the Flying Ones."

"The Deep should have Icebergs, or even whole frozen regions. Also parts of it should boil due to the Tempest or maybe Glow?"

"I motion that the Deep does not even roughly resemble Earth's landscape or even size, like the Spirit World Shadow does."

"what lives in the Deep?

I'm still trying to sort it out in my head, but here's what I've been thinking: the deeper you get, the harder it should be to go even lower, like in real oceans. That's the sort of mechanics that already exists with the morality scale in WOD. It's easy to go from 10 to 9, and pretty hard to go from 3 to 2. And you can get derangements while doing it.

So why not reuse a similar mechanic, with a similar set of rules, derangements and all? What if the Deep was actually a mental construction? Not cultural/intellectual like the Astral realms, and not platonic ideals like the Hisil, but a sort of deep id thing? It ties in with the madness and the primordial themes of L:tT.

It would explain why the suface is wide and varied: after all, all the leviathans and their cousins have their own minds and varied points of view, but it narrows down conceptually as you go deeper inside the monster side.

The "Cthulhu" that sits at the pointy bottom of the Deep is the Ur-mind, the original life-force that powers Leviathans. It is also entirely alien to the human mind.

The various creatures and gibbering things that populate the deep are the cephalopod equivalent of neuroses, unresolved fears, and conflicting points of view on the world.

The islands in the Deep are indeed made of the remains of Primordial Gods, but more specifically, they are the remains of their identities, their senses of self, rock-hard truths in an ocean of consciousness. That means they sometimes hold very old information or memories, that can be mined there.

It also solves the problem of why Leviathans would go into the deep. They shouldn't cross it often, like werewolves or changelings, because there are actually few things of worth there and many, many dangers, not least the risk of losing track of your humanity as you descend deeper. They should only go there when there is no choice. It should be a momentous event."

Some models of Reality[edit]

Like this![edit]

The Deep

  • The Upper Air

( The Continent, The Barrier, and Tidewaters )

  • The Doldrums
  • The Riptides
  • The Chthonic Depths
  • The Primeval Ocean


From the Leviathan point of view, we live on the Continent, separated from the Upper Air and the Doldrums by the Barrier. The Doldrums being where phantom islands and lost ships go. Tidewaters are access points (usually going to the Riptides, from where you can descend down into the dangers of the Chthonic Depths?). The ride gets choppier the higher/lower you go (with the riptides and upper air being medium chop for a Leviathan) due to the Tempest. No member of the Wicked Tribe (the Leviathans) has ever been said to reach the Primeval Ocean ever since the Tempest, and it gets worst the further you go through the Deep. The Primeval Ocean is basically going so deep in the Deep you come out the other side - the fabled celestial ocean, the godwaters, the really really groovy place from whence the primordials came and where their corpses are rotting now in the Tempest created stagnation (the Tempest churns things up elsewhere, keeps things dead placid in the Primeval Ocean, like the eye of the storm).

Or this![edit]

  • The Shore: The Real World, such as it is.
  • Breakwaters: places high, deep, or low where beings can easily pass out of the Shore (causes the deaths and disappearances of a few humans and Chthonians, who are no longer adapted for the place as it were, each year.
  • Shallows
  • The Depths
  • The Primeval Ocean


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