Once more with feeling/Logs/Small Group/In Denandsor/Nuwa and Antonee (about slavery)
Nuwa: "So, am I getting a lecture as well?"
Antonee: "Just a short one. I'm actually surprised at how short they've been. Especially Dhiren's."
Nuwa: "Oh?"
Antonee: "Yes. He actually seemed rather receptive, which I hadn't expected."
Nuwa smiles. "Perhaps you should examine what you based your expectation on then."
Nuwa: "We often think we know people better than we actually do."
Antonee nods. "True enough. Though, no offense, my expectation did come from his behaviour. And talking to some of the other Exalts in our motley crew."
Nuwa: "What did they say?"
Nuwa: "And who did you ask?"
Antonee: "I would prefer not to say, as I assured them that I would not pass on the details of what they told me. I hope you understand?"
Nuwa makes a throwing away gesture. "So long as you understand that what applies to you and me about what we think we know about people, naturally applies to them as well. The best way to learn about someone is to talk to them yourself - that way you are only burdened by your own misperceptions, not those of others as well."
Nuwa: "What did you want to talk to me about then?"
Antonee: "I want you to stop attacking Solitary Talon over the issue of her keeping slaves. It's disturbing circle harmony, and a number of us are growing sick and tired of it."
Nuwa: "Attacking? That is not the word I would have chosen. It implies a hostile intention, when mine is the exact opposite."
Nuwa shrugs. "I had myself come to the conclusion that public debate is unlikely to bring about anything good, though."
Antonee: "Regardless of your true intentions in the matter, she is perceiving them as hostile. Therefore attacking is the correct word to use."
Nuwa: "I don't pretend to know Solitary Talon well, but I suspect she puts much value on being perceived as superior and 'winning', which makes her consider actually thinking about our words and possibly accepting them as a loss."
Nuwa: "Publicly, that is."
Nuwa: "I have hope that a more reasonable discussion is possible in private."
Antonee nods. "She is from a Dynastic background. An emphasis on being seen as superior is par for the course, in my experience."
Nuwa: "I am confused on why she would perceive us as hostile, though. Determining intention is such a basic technique, even if for some reason cannot judge the same from expression, which I would have expected her to be an expert in - again from her background."
Nuwa shrugs. "But there we are at the matter of misperception again."
Antonee:"Well, you *are* trying to take away what she sees as her privileges. I rather suspect anyone in that position would perceive you as hostile."
Nuwa: "Many people are unreasonably attached to worthless things, yes."
Nuwa: "Though I am not trying to take anything away from her."
Nuwa: "Merely trying to explain to her why it is not something worth having in the first place."
Nuwa sighs. "Maybe in talking to her alone we will have less problems. She can insult me all day if she likes, I can deal with that. I find I have a rather harder time ignoring her insults to Dhiren."
Nuwa: "That is my failing, of course."
Antonee sighs. "From what the other Exalts told me, I suspect young Dhiren is not without blame in that matter."
Nuwa: "Provocation, accusation, name-calling. It's a vicious cycle of verbal violence."
Antonee nods. "Agreed."
Nuwa: "Well, how about you? We seem to be able to speak rationally to one another, so I might as well ask: Where do you stand on the matter? Earlier you implied that you kept slaves yourself ..."
Antonee shrugs. "I do, yes. They could not afford to pay their debts, so they were seized and sold as punishment. I have the deeds of sale at the camp, if you wish to inspect them."
Nuwa: "Would you say the legality of it matters much to the ethical aspect of it?"
Antonee: "No. I believe slavery is ethical, but the precise legal form it takes does not concern me. The legal form she operates under is different to mine, but that is of no relevance."
Nuwa nods. "Why do you have slaves?"
Antonee shrugs again. "Because they are useful, it allows them to pay their debt to society, and because I haven't figured out how to solve the problems I'm encountering building automata to do their tasks. Pick one."
Nuwa: "Is that an 'and' or an 'or' between those possibilities?"
Antonee:"It would be an 'and'. May I ask why?"
Nuwa: "The latter would imply that you do not know your own reasons. The former on the other hand suggests that you see several reasons without clear weighing between them. An important difference as I'm sure you'll agree. I am curious why you would ask me to pick one of them, though."
Antonee: "Because you appeared to wish for a single reason. My apologies."
Nuwa: "No apologies are necessary. There is rarely just one reason for anything."
Nuwa: "How would you weigh these reasons?"
Antonee: "I would not. They are all of equal relevance to me."
Nuwa nods. "I see."
Nuwa: "Could you explain to me this 'debt to society' you speak of? I'm afraid I don't entirely understand that."
Nuwa: "Or rather, the explanations I have heard to date have differed wildly and it would help me to know which one you are employing."
Antonee: "It is simple enough. They have violated the laws of society by committing various criminal acts. Theft, indebtedness, et cetera. Therefore they have a debt to society."
Nuwa: "So that means that theirs is a temporary punishment, not a permanent taking of freedom? How long on average does this punishment last?"
Antonee: "It varies, depending on the nature of the crime, it's severity, and which Magistrate they get. Debtors typically get from five to ten years, thieves ten to twenty. Murderers and rapists suffer either a life of slavery, usually hard labour or fighting in the arena, or they are put to death."
Nuwa: "Those seem rather harsh punishments in many cases. But then that is a matter of law and not of philosophy."
Antonee: "The punishments are well publicised. It is their responsibility if they then chose to break the law." Antonee says, shrugging slightly.
Nuwa: "So, would it be fair to sum up your reasons as follows? For your own convenience, which you have found no better or cheaper way to bring about? And because you support a code of law that uses temporary enslavement as punishment for criminal acts?"
Antonee nods. "That seems reasonable."
Nuwa: "And given the choice between buying slaves and hiring servants, are financial concerns or the service to society you render by enacting its punishment the more important factor?"
Antonee: "Hmm. Probably the service to society. I think I do have someone who sold herself, but I would have to check the ledgers to see."
Nuwa: "So, given a society that worked well with a different model of punishment, and other means to satisfy your desire for convenience - which is no more than a matter of time and effort, if I have understood you correctly - there would be no reason for you to keep slaves?"
Antonee: "Not particularly, no. I dealt in luxury goods. Not the kind of thing you want slaves to produce. Too much risk of someone deciding it's worth the risk to sabotage production."
Nuwa nods slowly. "Thank you for explaining this to me."
Antonee nods back. "It was my honour. But, out of curiosity, why are you so opposed to slavery?"
Nuwa: "To be a slave is to wear metaphorical chains, both physical and mental. This impedes or prevents them from seeking enlightenment, which is the potential of all beings with a soul and their right to pursue. It also means injury, degradation and abuse, which I would not wish on anyone and which often damages those who inflict it as well."
Antonee blinks. "Abuse? What are you talking about? Nobody abuses their slaves, they're a valuable investment."
Nuwa: "So you say. I do not know how you treat your slaves. Since she will not let me talk to them without threatening to murder them I do not know precisely how Solitary Talon treats hers and have only her word for it. But that alone would speak against you - did she not state proudly that she punishes her slaves by forcing them into sexual acts in order to strengthen her authority? Would you not call that injury, degradation, abuse or inflicting suffering on another human being?"
Antonee: "Yes. And? They're her slaves, not mine. She doesn't interfere in how I treat my slaves, I don't interfere in how she treats hers."
Nuwa: "And I have seen similar things with my own eyes in other places. Excessive violence of all sorts, inhuman treatment as objects instead of beings with a soul."
Nuwa: "You said that nobody abused their slaves ever, I was refuting your point. Or did I misunderstand you?"
Nuwa:"We are speaking about the issue of slavery in general, Creation-wide, are we not?"
Antonee shrugs. "Like I said, she's from a Dynastic background. Their standards are different."
Nuwa: "So, does that answer your question why I am opposed to slavery?"
Antonee: "It does, yes. Thank you."
Antonee pauses for a moment. "Incidentally, which Style do you use? I want to learn one which employs Grand Daiklaves."
Nuwa bows slightly.
Nuwa: "I have named the Style I am developing the Silence Ascendant Within The Tempest."
Nuwa: "I suppose some of its methods could be modified to be used with a Grand Daiklave."
Antonee: "I see. In that case, would you be interested in setting up a communal dojo? I believe we have several students of the Martial Arts in our circle, and it would be good to share techniques."
Nuwa: "I myself seek mastery in depth, not so much in variety. But I will gladly share some of my findings. Perhaps not alongside my non-Exalted students, though. I fear they may be disheartened by the sight."
Antonee nods. "That is a fair point."
