RPGnet - User contributions [en]

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-29T01:33:21Z

206.129.215.132: /* Character CP */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 3000 || 1000 || 300 || 0 || -300 ||-1000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP || 0 || 200 || 400 || 800 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! 3000 !! 1300 !! 900 !! 1400 !! 3200 !! 7600 !! 16200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

::This is good, though I don't know if we should formally include "ninja" in the rules.

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

;template power CP: Each point of template power is worth 200 CP.

;template ability CP: The CP of a template ability is the ability's special CP plus 300 CP for a +1 modifier or 1000 CP for a +2 modifier.

;template agility CP: Use this table to find the CP for the template's agility.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000

;template speed CP?: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

: Q: How do these speeds compare to ability levels in terms of damage-per-round (when a human sized character is fighting another human sized character)?
:: A:_______________________________________________________

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP?: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance CP maximum potential

none 0 no extra health, power agility or speed
low 100 +50% health/power
medium 300 double health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed
high 500 triple health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed

:This looks good to me.

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: Use this table to find the CP of a character's extra ability modifiers.

1 2 3 4
100 300 1000 3000

;extra agility CP?: Should +1 extra agility be worth 1000, 2000 or 3000 CP? -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

: 1,000 CP makes it an alternative to "master", and makes "master" less frequent amongst beginning characters.

;extra speed CP?: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-29T01:22:51Z

206.129.215.132: /* Template CP */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 3000 || 1000 || 300 || 0 || -300 ||-1000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP || 0 || 200 || 400 || 800 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! 3000 !! 1300 !! 900 !! 1400 !! 3200 !! 7600 !! 16200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

::This is good, though I don't know if we should formally include "ninja" in the rules.

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

;template power CP: Each point of template power is worth 200 CP.

;template ability CP: The CP of a template ability is the ability's special CP plus 300 CP for a +1 modifier or 1000 CP for a +2 modifier.

;template agility CP: Use this table to find the CP for the template's agility.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000

;template speed CP?: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

: Q: How do these speeds compare to ability levels in terms of damage-per-round (when a human sized character is fighting another human sized character)?
:: A:_______________________________________________________

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP?: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance CP maximum potential

none 0 no extra health, power agility or speed
low 100 +50% health/power
medium 300 double health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed
high 500 triple health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed

:This looks good to me.

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: Use this table to find the CP of a character's extra ability modifiers.

1 2 3 4
100 300 1000 3000

;extra agility CP?: Should +1 extra agility be worth 1000, 2000 or 3000 CP? -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

;extra speed CP?: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-29T01:18:50Z

206.129.215.132: /* New Extra Ability Scale */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 3000 || 1000 || 300 || 0 || -300 ||-1000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP || 0 || 200 || 400 || 800 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! 3000 !! 1300 !! 900 !! 1400 !! 3200 !! 7600 !! 16200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

::This is good, though I don't know if we should formally include "ninja" in the rules.

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

;template power CP: Each point of template power is worth 200 CP.

;template ability CP: The CP of a template ability is the ability's special CP plus 300 CP for a +1 modifier or 1000 CP for a +2 modifier.

;template agility CP: Use this table to find the CP for the template's agility.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000

;template speed CP?: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP?: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance CP maximum potential

none 0 no extra health, power agility or speed
low 100 +50% health/power
medium 300 double health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed
high 500 triple health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: Use this table to find the CP of a character's extra ability modifiers.

1 2 3 4
100 300 1000 3000

;extra agility CP?: Should +1 extra agility be worth 1000, 2000 or 3000 CP? -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

;extra speed CP?: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-29T01:18:32Z

206.129.215.132: /* New Extra Ability Scale */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 3000 || 1000 || 300 || 0 || -300 ||-1000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP || 0 || 200 || 400 || 800 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! 3000 !! 1300 !! 900 !! 1400 !! 3200 !! 7600 !! 16200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

:This is good, though I don't know if we should formally include "ninja" in the rules.

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

;template power CP: Each point of template power is worth 200 CP.

;template ability CP: The CP of a template ability is the ability's special CP plus 300 CP for a +1 modifier or 1000 CP for a +2 modifier.

;template agility CP: Use this table to find the CP for the template's agility.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000

;template speed CP?: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP?: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance CP maximum potential

none 0 no extra health, power agility or speed
low 100 +50% health/power
medium 300 double health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed
high 500 triple health/power, +/- 1 agility/speed

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: Use this table to find the CP of a character's extra ability modifiers.

1 2 3 4
100 300 1000 3000

;extra agility CP?: Should +1 extra agility be worth 1000, 2000 or 3000 CP? -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

;extra speed CP?: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-28T22:32:56Z

206.129.215.132: /* New CP Scale */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 600 || 300 || 100 || 0 || -100 || -300 || -600
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP ||-1000 || -600 || -300 || 0 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! -400 !! -200 !! 0 !! 600 !! 2400 !! 8300 !! 18200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

===New CP Scale===

We can probably get CP to do some but not all of the following things. The choice of which are the most important should guide our choice of CP scales:

* tell us who will win in a duel
* compare a pack of predators to their prey
* reflect hours of training
* measure pounds of meat
* reward quest completion
* measure progress
* set limits to development

We should choose the GROWTH (linear, geometric, doubling, tripling or power of 10) of a sequence of CP values separately from it's RANGE (CP of the lowest level, average and maximum level.) Any lowest level CP, average CP or maximum CP can be applied to any type of growth by multiplying the sequence of CP values by a constant.

Growth is more important than scale when looking at narrative reasons CP grows faster or slower at different levels and how many different abilities characters should have at what levels during different stages of character development. Scale is more important than growth when comparing the value of stats to each other: speed vs. health vs. agility vs. power vs. abilities, etc.

Narrative reasons ability CP growth should be faster or slower:

* In the US, education vs. income is a nearly-linear relationship, this favors a linear scale, but the correlation between either education or income and ability is hard to establish, and it's even more difficult to say what KIND of correlation that would be. Maybe education and income have a linear relationship because both education and income are proportional to ''square root'' of ability, so a high school education is level 2, an associate degree is level 3 and a PhD is level 4.

* An untrained guy can beat one other trained guy and then he's done. A student can beat two in a row, an expert can beat 3, a master can beat 6, a legend can beat dozens. An expert can beat two guys simultaneously, a master can beat 3, a legend can beat a dozen. This is very fast growth, but not power of 10. This favors a tripling scale.

Ability CP scales whose growth is faster than linear but
slower than powers of 10 and which have level 1 between
100 and 500 CP and level 4 between 1000 CP and 10000 CP:

geometric growth:
100 300 600 1000 CP = 100 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
200 600 1200 2000 CP = 200 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
500 1500 3000 4500 CP = 500 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
100 400 900 1600 CP = 100 * mod * mod
200 800 1800 5000 CP = 200 * mod * mod
500 2000 4500 8000 CP = 500 * mod * mod
doubling growth:
100 200 500 1000 CP = 50 * 2.15 to the mod power
200 500 1000 2000 CP = 100 * 2.15 to the mod power
500 1000 2000 5000 CP = 250 * 2.15 to the mod power
tripling growth:
100 300 1000 3000 CP = 32 * 3.16 to the mod power
300 1000 3000 10000 CP = 100 * 3.16 to the mod power

: I like the 1st (lower-number) tripling scale because it makes the biggest CP difference between ability levels, while not gratuitously inflating the over all CP scale.

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 100
0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 ... 10,000

: This strikes me as sound.

;template power CP: power should be more expensive than health, but fairly low cost compared to roll modifiers. Power also grows very fast, so let's put it's CP on a linear scale. However low power is a serious handicap because it makes you unable to hurt armored opponents, so perhaps low power should have a negative CP.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 50
0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 1800 ... 10,000 CP = 200 * power
-800 -600 -400 -200 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4)
-1200 -900 -600 -300 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4) OR 300 * (power - 4)
-2000 -1500 -1000 -500 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4) OR 500 * (power - 4)

: I like the top one, it's the most straight-forward one to figure out from a player's perspective.

;template ability CP: Roll modifiers should be expensive. Their values are capped and they don't grow fast, but their effects compound and grow quickly, so their CP should grow quickly. Template abilities can be level 1 or 2. The CP difference between 1 and 2 ability should be greater than the difference between 0 and 1 abiility, so it should grow faster than doubling, but probably not by powers of 10. Tripling is probably just right. Which basically leaves us with the choices of whether 1 template ability should be worth 200, 300 or 500 CP:

1 2
200 600
300 1000
500 1500

;template agility CP: Agility CP should be significantly more expensive than Ability CP, but 2 levels of ability are usually better than 1 level of agility, so the CP difference of an agility level should not be greater than twice the difference between ability levels.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-1200 -600 -200 0 200 600 1200 (geometric)
-3000 -1500 -500 0 500 1500 3000 (geometric)
-2000 -1000 -500 0 500 1000 2000 (doubling)
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000 (tripling)

;template speed CP: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance = CP
low = 0
medium = 100
high = 200

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: extra ability should be worth more than extra health and power.

;extra agility CP: +1 extra agility should be worth at least 1000 CP, no less than the difference between expert (2) and master (3) ability and no more than 2 times the difference between master (3) and legend (4) ability. -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

extra ability CP: extra agility CP:
1 2 3 4 +1
200 600 1200 2000 (geometric) 1000 to 1600
500 1500 3000 4500 (geometric) 1500 to 3000
200 500 1000 2000 (doubling) 1000 to 2000
500 1000 2000 5000 (doubling) 1000 to 6000
100 300 1000 3000 (tripling) 1000 to 4000
300 1000 3000 10000 (tripling) 2000 to 14000

;extra speed CP: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-28T22:21:58Z

206.129.215.132: /* Template CP */

==Modifier Range==

===Proposals===

* template agility ranges from 0 to 6 instead of 0 to 8
* template abilities range from 0 to 2
* extra ability modifiers range from 0 to 4
* templates can have disabilities, but total disability modifiers cannot be less than -4
* when two disabilities affect a roll, use the worst one instead of adding them together
* negative circumstances modifiers are not added together or added to disability modifiers. Just use whichever is worse. If two negative circumstance or disability modifiers have a compound effect which is significantly worse than the individual circumstances, then the compound effect is a third circumstance with a worse modifier which is used instead.
* positive circumstance modifiers are also not added together. Use whichever is best. They are added to agility, ability, move modifiers and whatever negative modifier applies. Significant compound effects of two positive circumstances are treated as a third positive circumstance with a better modifier.
* An attack should automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1.
** This gives everyone a 1 in 36 chance of automatic success.
** A 1 in 36 chance of success is like someone with no training fighting a master.
** A "ninja" would still have the usual advantage over a master, expert or student, but she would be unable to defeat an infinitely large untrained mob.
** We could call rolling a 6 a "perfect" attack roll because it's the best you can roll.
** Does armor absorption still apply when the attack automatically succeeds?

===New Size Table===

Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.

{| style="text-align:center"
! align="left" | Example
! style="width:4em" | mouse
! style="width:4em" | rat
! style="width:4em" | cat
! style="width:4em" | human
! style="width:4em" | horse
! style="width:4em" | elephant
! style="width:5em" | whale
|-
| align="left" | mass || 20 g || 300 g || 5 kg || 80 kg || 500 kg || 8 tonnes || 50 tonnes
|-
! align="left" | Agility !! 6 !! 5 !! 4 !! 3 !! 2 !! 1 !! 0
|-
| align="left" | agility CP || 600 || 300 || 100 || 0 || -100 || -300 || -600
|-
! align="left" | Speed !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1 !! 1/2 !! 1/2
|-
| align="left" | speed CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 ||-3000 || -3000
|-
! align="left" | Health !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 6 !! 15 !! 50 !! 100
|-
| align="left" | health CP || 0 || 100 || 200 || 600 || 1500 || 5000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Power !! 0 !! 1 !! 2 !! 4 !! 10 !! 30 !! 50
|-
| align="left" | power CP ||-1000 || -600 || -300 || 0 || 2000 || 6000 || 10000
|-
! align="left" | Cover !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 6 !! 6
|-
! align="left" | Absorption !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 1 !! 2
|-
| align="left" | armor CP || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 600 || 1800
|-
! align="left" | Total CP !! -400 !! -200 !! 0 !! 600 !! 2400 !! 8300 !! 18200
|}

===New Extra Ability Scale===

This scale is fairly realistic while still meeting people's expectations for martial arts masters and allowing characters to start out as experts then double their ability as they gain experience. It also allows extreme characters to develop a degree of prowess which is not quite realistic but fits expectations set by comic books, movies and games.

;student (1 extra ability modifier): A martial arts student, ignoring other differences in health, power, etc., can beat two guys with no training in a row (without rest) but not simultaneously.

;expert (2 extra ability modifier): A martial arts expert, ignoring other differences, can beat two guys with no training simultaneously, or three in a row. He can also beat two students in a row, but not simultaneously.

;master (3 extra ability modifier): A martial arts master, ignoring other differences, can beat three guys with no training simultaneously, or six in a row. He can also beat two students simultaneously, or three in a row, or two experts in a row but not simultaneously.

;legend (4 extra ability modifier): A martial arts legend (world champion), ignoring other differences, can beat at least a dozen guys with no training simultaneously, or a very long line one at a time. He can also beat 3 students at the same time, 6 students in a row, 2 experts at the same time, 3 experts in a row, or 2 masters in a row but not at the same time.

;ninja (4 extra ability modifier, 1 extra agility): A ninja can beat two martial arts legends in a row, but not at the same time. He can also beat 2 masters at the same time, 3 masters in a row, 3 experts at the same time, 6 experts in a row, a dozen students at the same time, a lunch line of students, and an infinite number of people with no martial arts training. It takes so many fighters to take down a ninja that sending two ninjas is ineffective because it increases the ninja surface area available to attack :-)

===New CP Scale===

We can probably get CP to do some but not all of the following things. The choice of which are the most important should guide our choice of CP scales:

* tell us who will win in a duel
* compare a pack of predators to their prey
* reflect hours of training
* measure pounds of meat
* reward quest completion
* measure progress
* set limits to development

We should choose the GROWTH (linear, geometric, doubling, tripling or power of 10) of a sequence of CP values separately from it's RANGE (CP of the lowest level, average and maximum level.) Any lowest level CP, average CP or maximum CP can be applied to any type of growth by multiplying the sequence of CP values by a constant.

Growth is more important than scale when looking at narrative reasons CP grows faster or slower at different levels and how many different abilities characters should have at what levels during different stages of character development. Scale is more important than growth when comparing the value of stats to each other: speed vs. health vs. agility vs. power vs. abilities, etc.

Narrative reasons ability CP growth should be faster or slower:

* In the US, education vs. income is a nearly-linear relationship, this favors a linear scale, but the correlation between either education or income and ability is hard to establish, and it's even more difficult to say what KIND of correlation that would be. Maybe education and income have a linear relationship because both education and income are proportional to ''square root'' of ability, so a high school education is level 2, an associate degree is level 3 and a PhD is level 4.

* An untrained guy can beat one other trained guy and then he's done. A student can beat two in a row, an expert can beat 3, a master can beat 6, a legend can beat dozens. An expert can beat two guys simultaneously, a master can beat 3, a legend can beat a dozen. This is very fast growth, but not power of 10. This favors a tripling scale.

Ability CP scales whose growth is faster than linear but
slower than powers of 10 and which have level 1 between
100 and 500 CP and level 4 between 1000 CP and 10000 CP:

geometric growth:
100 300 600 1000 CP = 100 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
200 600 1200 2000 CP = 200 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
500 1500 3000 4500 CP = 500 * (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + mod)
100 400 900 1600 CP = 100 * mod * mod
200 800 1800 5000 CP = 200 * mod * mod
500 2000 4500 8000 CP = 500 * mod * mod
doubling growth:
100 200 500 1000 CP = 50 * 2.15 to the mod power
200 500 1000 2000 CP = 100 * 2.15 to the mod power
500 1000 2000 5000 CP = 250 * 2.15 to the mod power
tripling growth:
100 300 1000 3000 CP = 32 * 3.16 to the mod power
300 1000 3000 10000 CP = 100 * 3.16 to the mod power

===Template CP===

;template health CP: Each point of template health is worth 100 CP.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 100
0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 ... 10,000

: This strikes me as sound.

;template power CP: power should be more expensive than health, but fairly low cost compared to roll modifiers. Power also grows very fast, so let's put it's CP on a linear scale. However low power is a serious handicap because it makes you unable to hurt armored opponents, so perhaps low power should have a negative CP.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 50
0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 1800 ... 10,000 CP = 200 * power
-800 -600 -400 -200 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4)
-1200 -900 -600 -300 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4) OR 300 * (power - 4)
-2000 -1500 -1000 -500 0 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 9,200 CP = 200 * (power - 4) OR 500 * (power - 4)

: I like the top one, it's the most straight-forward one to figure out from a player's perspective.

;template ability CP: Roll modifiers should be expensive. Their values are capped and they don't grow fast, but their effects compound and grow quickly, so their CP should grow quickly. Template abilities can be level 1 or 2. The CP difference between 1 and 2 ability should be greater than the difference between 0 and 1 abiility, so it should grow faster than doubling, but probably not by powers of 10. Tripling is probably just right. Which basically leaves us with the choices of whether 1 template ability should be worth 200, 300 or 500 CP:

1 2
200 600
300 1000
500 1500

;template agility CP: Agility CP should be significantly more expensive than Ability CP, but 2 levels of ability are usually better than 1 level of agility, so the CP difference of an agility level should not be greater than twice the difference between ability levels.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
-1200 -600 -200 0 200 600 1200 (geometric)
-3000 -1500 -500 0 500 1500 3000 (geometric)
-2000 -1000 -500 0 500 1000 2000 (doubling)
-3000 -1000 -300 0 300 1000 3000 (tripling)

;template speed CP: template speed can be 0, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Speed basically has a multiplying effect on power. 2 speed gives you a combo with a maximum of 50% extra power compared to a powerful attack. 3 speed can do a combo with up to twice the power of a powerful strike, and 4 speed gives you up to 150% extra power. 1/2 speed basically cuts your power in half, and 1/4 speed basically cuts your power by 75%. Unfortunately power varies dramatically. It's tempting to base the CP on human-sized characters, but the characters most likely to have low speed are giants. On the other hand the characters most likely to use high speed are little guys, but we want to keep the CP value of speed high so a super-template with both speed and power has very very high CP.

template speed: 0 1/4 1/2 1 2 3 4
whale-based CP: -10,000 -7500 -5000 0 5000 10000 15000
elephantine CP: -6000 -4500 -3000 0 3000 6000 9000
horse-based CP: -2000 -1500 -1000 0 1000 2000 3000

:Keep in mind that the above figures are for the OPTIMAL value of speed. Speed only helpful when the character can use a combo. We could also consider using your power to determine your speed CP:

0 speed CP = -200 * template power
1/4 speed CP = -150 * template power
1/2 speed CP = -100 * template power
1 speed CP = 0
2 speed CP = 100 * template power
3 speed CP = 200 * template power
4 speed CP = 300 * template power

;template variance CP: Now that template variance actually limits your maximum character development in certain areas, it should have a CP value.

variance = CP
low = 0
medium = 100
high = 200

===Character CP===

;extra health CP: Each point of extra health is worth 100 CP. Extra health can be positive or negative. For example -3 extra health is worth -300 CP.

;extra power CP: Each point of extra power is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be positive or negative. For example -2 extra power is worth -400 CP.

;extra ability CP: extra ability should be worth more than extra health and power.

;extra agility CP: +1 extra agility should be worth at least 1000 CP, no less than the difference between expert (2) and master (3) ability and no more than 2 times the difference between master (3) and legend (4) ability. -1 extra agility CP should be the same size but negative.

extra ability CP: extra agility CP:
1 2 3 4 +1
200 600 1200 2000 (geometric) 1000 to 1600
500 1500 3000 4500 (geometric) 1500 to 3000
200 500 1000 2000 (doubling) 1000 to 2000
500 1000 2000 5000 (doubling) 1000 to 6000
100 300 1000 3000 (tripling) 1000 to 4000
300 1000 3000 10000 (tripling) 2000 to 14000

;extra speed CP: A character can have +1 speed or double speed. Double speed effectively doubles or un-halves power, while +1 speed increases power by 1/3 or 1/2. Power varies dramatically, but the characters most interested in extra speed will be large characters, and there's no reason to make speed cheap, so we can treat extra speed CP as if the extra speed always doubles maximum combo power. We could base extra speed on horse power (2000 CP) elephant power (6000 CP) or whale power (10000 CP) or somewhere in-between. Many world-class fighters have modest speed, so it is okay (but not necessary) for extra speed CP to be as great or greater than the CP of a legendary ability level (4). Extra speed CP could also be based on template power or total power. (200 * total power or 400 * template power or something like that.)

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)