RPGnet - User contributions [en]

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T04:35:26Z

69.91.151.156: /* Modifier Range */

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:4em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Example
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success avoids the worst case scenario===

chance automatic success when:

1 in 6 attack roll is 6
5 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll isn't
1 in 12 attack and defense rolls are same even number
1 in 12 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 4, 5 or 6
1 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 1

* 1 in 6 automatic success is like having no more than 2 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 12 automatic success is like having no more than 3 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 36 automatic success is like having no more than 4 points difference between modifiers

For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make the chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So a 1/36 chance requires huge characters to have something like 50 health, a 1/12 chance requires something like 20 health, and a 1/6 chance only requires about 10 health. (Speed might also be taken into account. If the big guy has half speed he needs double health to make up for fewer chances to hit.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

:I think checking the target's roll is an unnecessary step that makes little difference (1/6 vs 5/36.) The defender is already comparing his roll to armor, why add complexity?

===CP limits range===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T04:18:27Z

69.91.151.156: /* Modifier Range */

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:4em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Examples
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success avoids the worst case scenario===

chance automatic success when:

1 in 6 attack roll is 6
5 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll isn't
1 in 12 attack and defense rolls are same even number
1 in 12 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 4, 5 or 6
1 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 1

* 1 in 6 automatic success is like having no more than 2 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 12 automatic success is like having no more than 3 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 36 automatic success is like having no more than 4 points difference between modifiers

For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make the chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So a 1/36 chance requires huge characters to have something like 50 health, a 1/12 chance requires something like 20 health, and a 1/6 chance only requires about 10 health. (Speed might also be taken into account. If the big guy has half speed he needs double health to make up for fewer chances to hit.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

:I think checking the target's roll is an unnecessary step that makes little difference (1/6 vs 5/36.) The defender is already comparing his roll to armor, why add complexity?

===CP limits range===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T04:17:51Z

69.91.151.156: /* CP limits range? */

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:5em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Examples
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success avoids the worst case scenario===

chance automatic success when:

1 in 6 attack roll is 6
5 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll isn't
1 in 12 attack and defense rolls are same even number
1 in 12 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 4, 5 or 6
1 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 1

* 1 in 6 automatic success is like having no more than 2 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 12 automatic success is like having no more than 3 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 36 automatic success is like having no more than 4 points difference between modifiers

For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make the chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So a 1/36 chance requires huge characters to have something like 50 health, a 1/12 chance requires something like 20 health, and a 1/6 chance only requires about 10 health. (Speed might also be taken into account. If the big guy has half speed he needs double health to make up for fewer chances to hit.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

:I think checking the target's roll is an unnecessary step that makes little difference (1/6 vs 5/36.) The defender is already comparing his roll to armor, why add complexity?

===CP limits range===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T04:17:10Z

69.91.151.156: /* Automatic success */

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:5em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Examples
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success avoids the worst case scenario===

chance automatic success when:

1 in 6 attack roll is 6
5 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll isn't
1 in 12 attack and defense rolls are same even number
1 in 12 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 4, 5 or 6
1 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 1

* 1 in 6 automatic success is like having no more than 2 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 12 automatic success is like having no more than 3 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 36 automatic success is like having no more than 4 points difference between modifiers

For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make the chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So a 1/36 chance requires huge characters to have something like 50 health, a 1/12 chance requires something like 20 health, and a 1/6 chance only requires about 10 health. (Speed might also be taken into account. If the big guy has half speed he needs double health to make up for fewer chances to hit.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

:I think checking the target's roll is an unnecessary step that makes little difference (1/6 vs 5/36.) The defender is already comparing his roll to armor, why add complexity?

===CP limits range?===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T04:14:08Z

69.91.151.156: /* Automatic success */

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:5em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Examples
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success===

chance automatic success when:

1 in 6 attack roll is 6
5 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll isn't
1 in 12 attack and defense rolls are same even number
1 in 12 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 4, 5 or 6
1 in 36 attack roll is 6 and defense roll is 1

* 1 in 6 automatic success is like having no more than 2 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 12 automatic success is like having no more than 3 points difference between modifiers
* 1 in 36 automatic success is like having no more than 4 points difference between modifiers

For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make the chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So a 1/36 chance requires huge characters to have something like 50 health, a 1/12 chance requires something like 20 health, and a 1/6 chance only requires about 10 health. (Speed might also be taken into account. If the big guy has half speed he needs double health to make up for fewer chances to hit.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

:I think checking the target's roll is an unnecessary step that makes little difference (1/6 vs 5/36.) The defender is already comparing his roll to armor, why add complexity?

===CP limits range?===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-24T03:36:12Z

69.91.151.156:

==Modifier Range==

template agility ( 0 to 6) proposed limit
extra agility (-1 to 1) current limit
template ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
extra ability ( 0 to 4) proposed limit
disability (-4 to 0) limit if disabilities don't stack
move modifier ( 0 to 3) aim (+2) and strategic attack (+1)
+ circumstances (-1 to 1) proposed limit
---------------------------
combat modifier (-6 to 19)

The opponent might also have a modifier from -6 to 19, so the worst case scenario is -6 vs. 19, a range of 25 points.

The following table shows a proposed size table with 0 to 6 agility instead of 0 to 8. General categories have been replaced by single specific examples (mammals) with CP values (for the agility, health and power on this table). The CP values are not exactly correct.

{| style="text-align:center"
| rowspan="10" width="200" valign="top" align="left" |
Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following examples should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.
! CP !! style="width:5em" | Agility !! style="width:5em" | Health !! Power !! style="width:7em" | Mass !! align="left" | Examples
|-
| -400 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 20 g || align="left" | mouse
|-
| -300 || 5 || 1 || 1 || 300 g || align="left" | rat
|-
| -200 || 4 || 2 || 2 || 5 kg || align="left" | cat
|-
| 200 || 3 || 5 || 3 || 80 kg || align="left" | man
|-
| 1600 || 2 || 10 || 6 || 500 kg || align="left" | horse
|-
| 7100 || 1 || 20 || 12 || 8 tonnes || align="left" | elephant
|-
| 22700 || 0 || 50 || 20 || 50 tonnes || align="left" | whale
|}

The following table is a proposed extra ability modifier scale. Would the same range apply to template ability modifiers? Should there be a total ability modifier (template + extra) limit?

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Barely exposed - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Novice (Technical Certification) - has started to seriously develop the ability
2 : Student (Bachelor's Degree) - average ability for someone involved with the subject
3 : Expert (Master's Degree) - better than most people who develop this ability
4 : Champion (PhD) - might be the best in the world

===Can we limit ranges to prevent worst case scenario?===

We could avoid the "worst case scenario" if we get the total range down to 4. (So no two characters will be totally outside each other's range.) which if we used the above ability range, we would have perhaps 2 levels of ability (0 = student, 1 = Master) +/- 1 extra agility, and +/- 1 template agility. Special moves and circumstantial modifiers would still give many moves a 0% or 100% chance of success. To absolutely prevent an automatic success or failure by limiting modifiers we would have to limit the sum of the maximum and minimum character AND tactical or circumstantial modifiers to a maximum difference of 4. It would literally be impossible to have just two levels of each template agility, extra agility, template ability, extra ability, and any modifier based on your choice of moves or circumstances.

===Automatic success===

What if we have attacks automatically succeed when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls a 1 (1 in 36 times)? For automatic success to solve our balance problems, big characters would need enough health to make a 1 in 36 chance of hitting a winning proposition when a large character fights a tiny character. So either we increase it to more than a 1/36 chance, or we jack up elephant-sized health into the neighborhood of 50 health (which would be fine by me.)

What if attacks succeed automatically when attacker rolls a 6 regardless of the defender's roll (1 in 6 times)? Big characters might not need so much more health, but success would be more random and ability difference less important. (And it's probably not as realistic.)

(Automatic success is more important than automatic failure. An automatic success rule increases the minimum chance of success from NEVER to OCCASIONALLY. An automatic failure rule (i.e. the attack always fails if you roll a 1) rule would only cut the maximum chance of success from ALWAYS to USUALLY . A chance to get lucky and do some damage makes the difference between total failure and a shot at victory while the chance to maybe not get pummeled once in a while doesn't keep you from getting killed by the rest of the blows which still rain down upon you.)

Here's an alternative critical hit rule I like: if you roll a six you automatically succeed unless your opposition also rolls a 6, and if you roll a 1 you automatically fail unless your opposition also rolls a 1. This gives you a 5/36 chance of automatically succeeding or automatically failing.

The best automatic success rule depends on how much randomness you need or want:

*If we feel that a 0 to 4 range is sufficiently random, then a 1/36 chance of automatic success (such as the 6 vs. 1 rule) would give us the same randomness for even the most extreme cases.
*If we feel that a 0 to 3 range is sufficiently random, then we should look for a 1/12 chance of automatic success rule Examples: if the attacker and defender roll the same even number the attack automatically succeeds. Or the attack succeeds when the attacker rolls a 6 and the defender rolls more than 3 (to get around armor).
*If we feel that a 0 to 2 range is sufficiently random, we should look for automatic success 1/6 or the time (when the attacker rolls a 6).

===CP limits range?===

Character points can limit the range of modifiers two ways: by reducing maximum modifiers, and by increasing minimum modifiers.

To find the maximum modifier we have to look at the player who is tweaking his character for maximum combat bonus. We won't choose the template with the best modifiers, but with the best modifier-to-character-point ratio. He may also take advantage of some disabilities, so we need to add maximum negative CP to the total CP limit. On a scale where +2 has more than twice the CP of +1, the player will prefer a bunch of +1 modifiers to a few +2 modifiers. If agility has twice the CP of a combat ability, this character will try to put 1/3 of his CP into template agility (depending on what templates are available), 1/3 into extra agility, 1/6 into template ability modifier (again depending on what's available) and 1/6 into extra ability.

Suppose the player is making a 2500 CP character. Ideally 800 CP would go into template agility, 800 into extra agility, 400 into template ability and 400. Suppose he finds a template with 600 CP of agility (6) and and 600 CP of ability (3) then suppose he puts 200 CP into extra agility (1) and 1000 CP into extra ability (4). His total modifier is 6 + 3 + 1 + 4 = 14.

To find the minimum modifier we cannot look at the player doing the opposite tweak: minimizing his combat bonus, because that player frankly could give a crap about his chances in a fight. Instead we should look at a character who makes combat bonus a very low priority, perhaps dumping his last 100 CP into getting +1 to some combat ability. This character will have a very average template to minimize CP - the game will probably not have templates which are clumsy AND weak. So his minimum template agility is -1. This suggests that the minimum total modifier for a character who is not designed for fighting but not designed to be an easy target is 0.

0 to 14 is not a very tight range. It is tighter than -5 to 17, and it can probably be improved by changes to the CP scale. Remember that the tweaker splits his CP as evenly as possible between the 4 ways to increase his combat bonus: template agility and abilities and extra agility and abilities.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)