RPGnet - User contributions [en]

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-23T00:07:33Z

69.91.151.232: /* Half Power Notation */

==The Best of the Best==

The CP of extra health: [[Mano a Mano:Character_Creation#Build]]

Should we remove "add two best athletic abilities to health", even if maximum ability level is 4? This could result from setting "master" level at 3 and "maximum" level at 4... something like:

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Novice - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Student - average ability for someone involved with the subject
2 : Expert - better than most people who develop this ability
3 : Master - undisputed reference in the field
4 : World Champion - might be the best in the world

:yes we should. Even if maximum ability level was 2 or 3, the "two best athletic abilities" rule would create a need for negative health in little critters like bugs - and that's just one of the problems with the "two best athletic abilities" system.

:Your scale does point out an interesting point of symmetry: Normal human health, agility and power is 4. With medium variance, humans can double their health or power (increasing them by 4 levels) If they can also increase their extra ability modifiers by up to 4 levels that's some interesting symmetry.

:A different way to interpet the 0-4 scale would be to treat 2 as something less than an "expert" and more like a junior teacher, advanced student or other rank that starts from having mastered the basics and begins real-world application, competition or learning advanced techniques.

==Half Power Notation==

*"half power - full power" notation should only be used on a character's equipment list.
*If half power is listed on the character sheet, it does not have to be looked up (a player can do the math in his head each time if he prefers and remembers our special half-math properly.) However a table reference is always simpler in a combat round than division, especially when that division is compounded by other division.
**A table reference is not ALWAYS simpler: it can be difficult to explain and it can be slower than simple halving for some people, but I can accept the assumption that a table reference is faster for most people unless new evidence appears to contradict it. Also I think attackers are likely to memorize their half and full power, because it's the same every time they use the weapon, so compounding effects won't be severe.
*When players look up a move, they need to find all of the information about that move in one place.
**What is all of the information about a move?
***can be used in a combo ("quick action" or "combinable")
***cannot be used when injured or with an unwieldy weapon ("strenuous" aka "powerful action")
***used with hand weapons and natural weapons (hand to hand)
***used with thrown weapons
***used with bows and guns
***can give you the dominant position (grappling)
***cannot be used on the ground (standing)
***can put the opponent off balance or on the ground
***can hurt the opponent (attack) with half power or full power
***does only stun (choke)
***has a +1 attack bonus
***gives a +1 defense bonus until your next turn
***gives a +2 defense bonus until your next turn
***has double range (powerful throw)
**examples of some action summaries - all the information about the move requires AT LEAST the following:
***quick strike (combinable hand to hand attack)
***strategic strike (strenuous hand to hand attack with +1 attack bonus)
***cautious strike (strenuous hand to hand attack with +1 defense until your next turn)
***powerful strike (strenuous hand to hand attack with full power)
***outreaching strike (strenuous hand to hand attack with full power and +1 defense against weapons with less reach until your next turn)
***quick throw (combinable thrown weapon attack)
***powerful throw (strenuous thrown weapon attack with full power and double range)
***heave (strenuous thrown weapon attack with full power)
***aim (combinable action which gives a +1 attack bonus to your next attack unless you get hit)
***quick shot (combinable gun or bow attack with full power)
***strategic shot (strenuous gun or bow attack with full power and +1 attack bonus)
***cautious shot (strenuous gun or bow attack with full power and +1 defense until your next turn)
***draw and fire (strenuous bow attack which does not require the bow to be already drawn)
***draw (combinable bow action which prepares the bow to be fired)
***load (combinable gun action)
***unload (combinable gun action)
***replace a clip (powerul gun action)
***push (combinable grappling attack which puts the target off balance)
***trip (strenuous grappling attack with full power which puts the target off balance)
***slam (strenuous grappling attack which puts the target on the ground)
***hold (combinable grappling attack)
***wrench (strenuous grappling attack with full power)
***choke (strenuous grappling attack with full power which only does stun)
***disarm (strenuous grappling attack with full power which takes the target's weapon)
***drop (combinable action which ends up on the ground)
***stand (combinable action which ends up standing)
***instant stand (strenuous action which ends up standing with +2 defense until your next turn)
*If we use the phrase "half power", we should use it to mean something very specific on the character sheet which is called "half power."
**Yes, I think "half power" and "full power" should be specific names for the two parts of the "power" column on a character's equipment list.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Talk:Mano a Mano

2008-01-22T23:38:39Z

69.91.151.232: /* Half Power Notation */

==The Best of the Best==

The CP of extra health: [[Mano a Mano:Character_Creation#Build]]

Should we remove "add two best athletic abilities to health", even if maximum ability level is 4? This could result from setting "master" level at 3 and "maximum" level at 4... something like:

extra ability modifier : description
0 : Novice - has used the ability without developing proficiency
1 : Student - average ability for someone involved with the subject
2 : Expert - better than most people who develop this ability
3 : Master - undisputed reference in the field
4 : World Champion - might be the best in the world

:yes we should. Even if maximum ability level was 2 or 3, the "two best athletic abilities" rule would create a need for negative health in little critters like bugs - and that's just one of the problems with the "two best athletic abilities" system.

:Your scale does point out an interesting point of symmetry: Normal human health, agility and power is 4. With medium variance, humans can double their health or power (increasing them by 4 levels) If they can also increase their extra ability modifiers by up to 4 levels that's some interesting symmetry.

:A different way to interpet the 0-4 scale would be to treat 2 as something less than an "expert" and more like a junior teacher, advanced student or other rank that starts from having mastered the basics and begins real-world application, competition or learning advanced techniques.

==Half Power Notation==

*"half power - full power" notation should only be used on a character's equipment list.
*If half power is listed on the character sheet, it does not have to be looked up (a player can do the math in his head each time if he prefers and remembers our special half-math properly.) However a table reference is always simpler in a combat round than division, especially when that division is compounded by other division.
**A table reference is not ALWAYS simpler: it can be difficult to explain and it can be slower than simple halving for some people, but I can accept the assumption that a table reference is faster for most people unless new evidence appears to contradict it. Also I think attackers are likely to memorize their half and full power, because it's the same every time they use the weapon, so compounding effects won't be severe.
*When players look up a move, they need to find all of the information about that move in one place.
**What is all of the information about a move?
***can be used in a combo ("quick action" or "combinable")
***cannot be used when injured or with an unwieldy weapon ("strenuous" aka "powerful action")
***used with hand weapons and natural weapons (hand to hand)
***used with thrown weapons
***used with bows and guns
***can give you the dominant position (grappling)
***cannot be used on the ground (standing)
***can put the opponent off balance or on the ground
***can hurt the opponent (attack) with half power or full power
***does only stun (choke)
***has a +1 attack bonus
***gives a +1 defense bonus until your next turn
***gives a +2 defense bonus until your next turn
***has double range (powerful throw)
*If we use the phrase "half power", we should use it to mean something very specific on the character sheet which is called "half power."
**Yes, I think "half power" and "full power" should be specific names for the two parts of the "power" column on a character's equipment list.

==Mechanical vs. Organic Characters==

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

:There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

:How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

:Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

==Combat Abilities==

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

;Weapon Proficiency: Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

;Athletic Abilities: Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect ''how'' you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

==Limitations==

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

* Template limitations not currently on the template:
** Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
** Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
** natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a '''limit''' (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
* CP Allowance
** How much CP for heroic characters?
** How much CP for super-heroic characters?
* Equipment
** starting equipment (character creation)
** shopping (character development)
* PCs vs. NPCs
** templates
** occupations
** abilities?
** equipment
* Character ability level limits?
** character creation
** training
** occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

* Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
* Disabilities
** A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
** A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

==Ability Checks in Combat==

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

:A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)