RPGnet - User contributions [en]

File talk:Bob-Quick-FlexCityRat-300px.jpg

2017-07-05T06:11:10Z

Tyciol: Created page with "==Dat image== Anyone know the source? Really resembles the quick flex girl on page 59 of Savage Rifts - The Tomorrow Legion Players Guide. ~~~~"

==Dat image==
Anyone know the source?

Really resembles the quick flex girl on page 59 of Savage Rifts - The Tomorrow Legion Players Guide. [[User:Tyciol|Ty]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 23:11, 4 July 2017 (PDT)

Talk:Worst RPGs ever

2016-04-05T03:21:09Z

Tyciol: reply, new section, organizing, removing https://wiki.rpg.net/index.php?diff=201216 since pointless

=2008=
==Fashan==
Hey--Spawn of Fashan was a real game? I remember Lawrence Schick's hilarious review of it in Dragon magazine, and I thought the review was a joke.

John {{unsign|68.145.109.100|28 March 2008}}

=2009=
==Hypocrisy==
LOL -- your critique is a bit hypocritical actually. AD&D and almost every other successful RPG is all about killing racial minorities -- just not ones identified with real life minorities who can talk back and sue out of game. Although if I am not mistaken AD&D was sent letters by the NAACP threating to sue based on their perception than Drow represented the real life black minority. Of course nothing ever happened because in most campaigns the evidence was too ridiculous thin to take to court.

Bottom line? Successful RPGs use racial war with fake races because every games needs easily identified enemies. Uniforms are not very flexible and limit the game to idealistic Prussian War rules (no spies, no civilians, nobody out of uniform and limited variety of uniforms). Fake races keep the legal issues from cropping up too early.

--Just Noting Reality {{unsigned|69.23.124.142|07:01, 22 May 2009}}

==FATAL review==
Has anybody else noticed that the link to the FATAL review is dead?

Rich {{unsigned|91.110.231.26|00:30, 26 May 2009}}

Here's a link to a mirror -
http://web.archive.org/web/20080208091645/http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html

Trent {{unsigned|98.242.104.248|20:43, 30 April 2010}}

==deadEarth==
Question: How did deadEarth not even make the running? {{unsigned|67.201.179.121|01:57, 6 August 2009}}

=2011=
==1st FATAL==
Is there any way to view the first pubilished edition of FATAL? Not the "From another time", the "Fantasy adventure" one. I want to see just how much they changed. {{unsigned|71.229.74.0|05:09, 2 March 2011}}
:There is a list of books at https://web.archive.org/web/20020105154301/http://members.tripod.com/Contingent_88/fataldownload.html not sure if they all got made. [[User:Tyciol|Ty]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 20:21, 4 April 2016 (PDT)

=2012=
==SenZar==
SenZar does not deserve to be on here. The game is mechanically solid, probably the best game in its style released prior to 3e D&D. It has cheese metal iconography, but that does not make it a bad RPG. {{unsigned|99.170.101.50|04:06, 12 May 2012}}

=2016=
==pointless quote==
:F.A.T.A.L., which has been called "the date rape RPG, without dating"
I realize this shows up (albeit as "without the dating") on [https://1d4chan.org/wiki/FATAL 1d4] but it's a silly quote.

FATAL does have rules for dating, under "seduction", and they are far more thorough than the rules on rape. For something stereotyped with rape, the rules barely focus on it at all and they're incredibly silly (only males can rape, only females can be rape, a rapist must outweigh their victim, etc) [[User:Tyciol|Ty]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 20:21, 4 April 2016 (PDT)

Talk:FRRPart2

2014-07-08T08:08:28Z

Tyciol: Tyciol moved page Talk:FRRPart2 to Talk:FRRpart2: lowercasing P for consistency, parts 3-5 use lowercase

#REDIRECT [[Talk:FRRpart2]]

Talk:FRRpart2

2014-07-08T08:08:28Z

Tyciol: Tyciol moved page Talk:FRRPart2 to Talk:FRRpart2: lowercasing P for consistency, parts 3-5 use lowercase

Hall and Co. brage about how "difficult" their game is. I do not think that word means what they think it means. [[User:24.8.177.254|24.8.177.254]] 01:37, 5 October 2005

I notice that Hall "corrects" the use of "which" and "that", [http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Whichvs.That/Whichvs.That01.html and gets it wrong]! [[User:174.6.69.189|174.6.69.189]] 13:31, 5 June 2009 (PDT)

FRRPart2

2014-07-08T08:08:27Z

Tyciol: Tyciol moved page FRRPart2 to FRRpart2: lowercasing P for consistency, parts 3-5 use lowercase

#REDIRECT [[FRRpart2]]

FRRpart2

2014-07-08T08:08:27Z

Tyciol: Tyciol moved page FRRPart2 to FRRpart2: lowercasing P for consistency, parts 3-5 use lowercase

Part 2/5 of the FATAL Review Rebuttal. --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]]
----
<blockquote>
So check this out: There's five primary stats, right? But, in a
nod towards the residents of insane asylums who smear the walls with their own feces, each
stat has four sub-stats which determine vital, important information like, say,
enunciation, or kinetic beauty. So, you actually have a stat that determines how well you
can speak, or how pretty it looks when you move. 

You should have used "that" instead of "which". Enunciation and
Kinetic Charisma (not beauty -- by now the reader should not expect accuracy from Darren)
are important sub-abilities (not sub-stats). For example, if a character is a
spell-caster, then Enunciation is important to their spell-casting. Enunciation is also
important to bards. Kinetic Charisma is important to a dancer, and probably anyone trying
to seduce another character. There are well over 100 occupations, and each uses a
different blend of the sub-abilities. Did Darren read the game?
Burnout: Just to elaborate once again. Imagine a mage getting
charged by a hill troll. Before the troll gets there, which is determined by the
sub-ability of physical fitness, the mage tries to cast Wooden Carapice, which would give
himself an additional 15 to current armor. Enunciation would determine if he could speak
the chant fast enough to cast the spell. 
Sartin: Would this be a bad place to mention that you have to randomly
roll all 20 sub-abilities? And the roll is 4d100, halve it, and subtract 1? Then you go
back and calculate each primary ability by averaging all four of its sub-abilities. Which
is really cool when you consider that primary abilities are rarely if ever used by the
rules. 
</blockquote>

4d100 has changed to 10d100. Keep in mind that a character can be created in five minutes or
less with the FATAL Character Generator, available free at fatalgames.com. Then again, the
complexity of determining sub-abilities ((10d100)/5 - 1), compared to other RPG's,
supports my claims that it is the most difficult, detailed, and realistic RPG available. I
mentioned realism because the curve produced by 10d100 is superior to anything else
I've seen, as well as the fact that the mean is 100, which is easy to interpret.
Therefore, the statistical curves produced by rolling for sub-abilities in FATAL are more
realistic, and represent real distributions better than other RPG's. Although primary
abilities are used less frequently than sub-abilities, I disagree with "rarely".
Just the same, the focus is on sub-abilities, not abilities.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Go ahead and make about 20 characters and see how well
they fit into the Bell curve. Ive tried and its much more accurate than
anything Ive seen.

So, basically, saying
that this game should be burned is an insult to fire.
</blockquote>

Saying that this game should be burned is an
insult to RPG's and gamers worldwide.

<blockquote>
The worst part of reviewing this shit is that I actually have to
think about it. I actually have to read this shit, then try to explain it to you, then I
have to spend half an hour with a pencil up my nose trying to fish out the piece of brain
that died the minute that I tried to use it to understand FATAL. And God almighty, that's
not a fun job. I'm genuinely worried that this is going to start interfering with my life,
so that I start wind up adding on pointless, redundant statistics to everything that I do,
like the guy who writes [http://philippe.tromeur.free.fr/hybrid.htm Hybrid]. 
Based on the lack of quality of Darren's comments, I doubt he thought about FATAL or
read much at all.
Burnout: Come on now, giving credit where its due he
probably read it. Just he couldnt understand most of it. Thats why hes
thinking so hard and fishing out his brain."

Also, for x=(c)(number of words in review)*ycc+kill me you fucks
kill me.
Sartin: It's hard to believe, but even Hybrid is less of a waste of atoms
than FATAL. You can catch my review of it [http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/hybrid.html here].
Just for example: Charisma includes Facial Charisma (how good you
look), Vocal Charisma (how you sound,) Kinetic Charisma (how pretty you look when you
move), and Rhetorical Charisma (how fast you CAN FUCKING SPEAK.) That's right, everybody:
You can determine how fast your character can speak, in words per minute. What a
statistic.
While speech rate may seem pointless to a reviewer who doesn't read closely, Rhetorical
Charisma is important to some characters, just as with Enunciation and Kinetic Charisma,
noted above. Above all, the information is there, if needed. If not needed, it doesn't
need to be read.
Burnout: Just a side note, Facial Charisma is not how good you
look. Its how good your face looks.

Sartin: Yeah, where to begin? I mean, I can't count the number of
campaigns I've seen where it matters whether your face can be THAT much prettier than your
body. But don't worry. Even if you blow that 4d100/2-1 roll for it, you can beat it by
wearing a bag over your head, like most FATALites probably do in real life.

It would be interesting to have a poll with hundreds of anonymous participants who rate
photos of their faces and ours, just to see.
Burnout: I believe in giving details so here we go again.
Imagine, if you will, fighting your way to the top of a tower where a female mage is
attempting to cast the spell FATAL upon the world. Now when you get there you have the
option of outright killing her. But there are so many options in FATAL one of which is
trying to seduce her and make her break her concentration as a by-product. Now being a
mage of high enough level to cast FATAL she obviously has high skill points in spell
casting, familiarity. So in order to break her concentration you need to seduce her AND
roll a high enough sexual adeptness check to be considered exceptional (80 or higher). In
order to do this it would help to have high Facial Charisma and Bodily Attractiveness
sub-abilities. 

And while we're on the subject, it's cool that Kinetic Charisma
is entirely separate from Hand-Eye Coordination and Agility. That's right! You can be the
clumsiest, most spastic sack of shit who ever lived, and yet still inspire boners because
the way you pick up that bottle of Jack Daniels to help you get through this game is just
so Kinetically Charismatic. Meanwhile, you fans of the controversial pastime of hot,
sweaty man-love will enjoy how, with Vocal Charisma, the lowest possible rating will get
you a description of "gay".

Finally, Darren provides an argument. Should Kinetic Charisma be correlated with
Hand-Eye Coordination and Agility? If there is a correlation, it should be weak. Consider
a female in high school or college, who moves attractively. The gestures she makes with
her wrist, the way she moves her head, and how she walks -- most consider her to be
kinetically charismatic. However, I believe it is reasonable for a female like this to be
tested by a Phys. Ed. teacher regarding either Hand-Eye or Agility, and perform poorly.
The opposite also seems plausible. Therefore, if a relationship exists, it is weak. As
these sub-abilities stand, orthogonal to each other, is reasonable. Just the same, I am
interested in exploring this further. I thank Darren for providing one argument not devoid
of all reason or support.
Burnout: Darren claims we are homophobic yet, he uses the term
hot, sweaty man love.
</blockquote>

And Rhetorical
Charisma...yeah. I mean, this happens all the time in the dungeon:

The scope of FATAL is much wider than
adventuring in a dungeon. In fact, if you consider the majority of occupations, the most
general form of role-playing in FATAL should be gaming either as a peasant in a hamlet or
a serf in a town.

Player: Okay, the dark priest HAS to be down to his last few hit points.
As I take my next strike, I'm gonna shout "This is for my brother! Eat testicle pubes
and die, scrotum breath!" 

Gamemaster: Now,
hold on! I'm not sure you could get that entire sentence out before you hit. Oh, if only
there was SOMETHING we could roll to see!

Burnout: Actually I believe what Sartin is looking for is
Enunciation not Rhetorical Charisma. In this case if his Enunciation were not high enough
he has the option of waiting to finish the sentence before striking. Though, if he chooses
that he runs the risk of the dark priest attacking first. Anyway, Rhetorical Charisma is
used more in the case of Haggling for a lower price for buying equipment or a higher price
for selling.

If Jason read the game, he'd know that
should be MaimMaster, not Gamemaster.

<blockquote>
I spent some time trying to scream, but nothing came out but
blood.

Please try again.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Okay, people. Remember that Darren's a professional, and we're
reviewing on a closed course. Don't projectile vomit blood at home!

Darren's a professional? Professional at what? It's sure not debating or reviewing. I wonder if
Darren's capable of an advanced degree? Nevermind, they're easy to get.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Isnt it obvious Byron. Hes a professional at
projecting vomitous blood, iIn accordance to the wording used by Sartin.

I should also spend some time describing the artwork for this
game. Most of it is obviously photographs run through the [http://www.adscape.com/eyedesign/photoshop/four/filters/graphicpen.html Graphic Pen] filter in Adobe Photoshop; and most of the photographs depict two beer-swollen
morons pretending to fight about as smoothly and realistically as any fight on Star Trek -
which is to say that it's stiff and really, really staged. There's also startling
depictions of the ARTWORK HERE monster, and crudely drawn pornographic sketches here and
there. As a matter of fact, the ARTWORK HERE monster must be the most common wandering
monster in FATAL, given its frequency of appearance.

There is only one "crudely drawn pornographic" sketch, and it was drawn by my
wife. Actually, it was the fun of the moment, not intended as permanent artwork. She is a
capable artist, though someone who sees that sketch should know that it took her less than
five seconds to sketch it. As for the altered photos, they are also not intended as
permanent artwork. The Artwork Here monste r(which, by the way, is not all caps, just in
case Darren's interested in getting it right) is now dying a slow death, since art is
being added and is one of the reasons the most recent version has not been made available
for some time. A professional artist is now working on FATAL.
Burnout: To give credit where its due, Darren is somewhat
right on one point here. Being one of the people in the photographs hes speaking
about, I can say that one other person and I were drunk when taking these pictures. And as
Byron stated they were never meant to be in FATAL, even worse permanent artwork. By the
way, if youve ever played with a bardiche while drinking you would now its
better to look staged than to chop your buddys head off.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Wait, he was trying to be intimidating? I thought he was going for
a "Hi! I'm a silhouette of a bearded jackass who couldn't pass muster in the
SCA!" look. Really, take a white marker and scribble on some black construction
paper, and you won't be too far off from what little artwork HAS been filled in here. If
Hall used Photoshop to create these images, he sucks at it. 

Who was trying to be intimidating? The last potential creature Darren mentioned was the
Artwork Here monster. Was the Artwork Here monster trying to be intimidating? My question
is: can Jason write clearly? Who is bearded? I was definitely no good at PhotoShop when
altered pictures of myself and my buddies. In the last few months, I'd say I got pretty
decent at PhotoShop. For example, I thoroughly redesigned the Fatal Games Website.

Here, check it out:

Really. It's from the
combat section. Actually, that one isn't so bad...the guy on the right is obviously Hall,
and no illustration that depicts Hall in a state of imminent fustigation can be all bad.

<blockquote>
The image used without permission is on the second page of Chapter 10: Combat.
</blockquote>

Hmmm...

Oh, yeah. I'm either
drunk or half-blind, or someone needs to try harder.

<blockquote>
I'm guessing Jason's drunk.

Or check this description of an ability check:
For example, a slovenly trollop offers herself to a strapping
young adventurer if and only if he can expediently say a tongue-twister of her choice.
Driven by hormones, the young male agrees, and asks what is the tongue twister. The
courtesan challenges "Huge hung hero hunks hastily hump horny heaving hot whores. How
'bout it, huh?"
So: Not only do we have a splendid example of the level that
FATAL operates at, we also have an example of the game's utter misogyny. You will never,
ever find a female character in this game who isn't a prostitute and/or proclaimed slut,
because that's the only kind of women that exist in these dipshits' imagination. There's
also not-English ("what is the tongue twister" instead of "what the tongue
twister is"), and, for the final kick in the balls to my leathery psyche, you have to
check against your Enunciation stat in order to say it.

I admit to making a mistake. However, Jason's powers of observation seem to leave much
to be desired. For example, it should be, "and asks 'What is the
tongue-twister?'" Did he expect the reader to overlook his misuse of the colon next
to "So:", or simply not notice the dangling preposition "at", which
would be better written as "the level at which FATAL operates." For that matter,
FATAL does not 'operate' in the sense he meant. His poorly worded attack is actually
hypocritical. By the way, Enunciation is better termed a sub-ability than a stat.
Burnout: Darren states You will never, ever find a female
character in this game who isn't a prostitute and/or proclaimed slut, because that's the
only kind of women that exist in these dipshits' imagination. I take offense to
these remarks but will answer in terms of the game itself. With exception of very few,
like Hierophant and Druid, a female can choose to be any occupation she so desires and
there are even occupations set aside just for females, other than whore. Like baroness,
chambermaid, dairymaid, delouser, duchesses, queen, laundress, lacemaker,and ladies,
amongst many others. There are also many occupations where both males or females are rare
or uncommon but they do exist.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Appropriately enough, that example ends with the adventurer
blowing it and losing the girl. How unintentionally autobiographical! 

Is that what Jason needs to believe to feel better? His suppositions sound as unreasonable as
grounds for religion.

But while we're on the
subject of whores and sluts, there are also few occupations in this game that get more
wordage from Hall than whoring and all things related to it (and even those only exceed
the whoring volume through huge charts or long, boring ass skill lists).

Whoring doesn't get much attention at all.
Would anyone like to make any comparisons? Jason refuses to support his argument.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Sure Ill make a quick comparison. Ok whore as an
occupation gets a page and a half with no charts. Ill check how many have that much
or more. Assassin has two pages with one four line chart. Brotheler gets a page and a half
no charts. Clerk gets a page and a half no charts. Doctor gets a page and a half no
charts. Druid gets three and a half pages including three charts that cover about a full
page. Gladiator gets a page and a half no charts. Knight gets a full page no charts. Mage
gets three pages about one and a half in charts. Ranger gets a page and a half no charts.
Scribe gets a page and half no charts. Sorceror gets two pages about one and three
quarters pages in charts. Thats all. I count 11 occupations that get the same or
more wording than whore. Seems like more than few to me. There are also a lot that get a
whole page to themselves so whore doesnt get that much more than them.

</blockquote>

And all the whore and
whore-related profession descriptions, of course, instantly footnote you to
"information on whores has been obtained from Medieval Prostitution, by Jacques
Rossiaud". Which, as it turns out, is a book on prostitution...in southern
France...in the time period spanning the 1400s. And yet Hall is basing an entire world on
it. Yes, people, this is what passes for "research" and "historical
accuracy" in FATAL.

<blockquote>
If Jason read the book, he'd  know that in numerous places, information on
brothels and whoring is generalized to Europe. The arguments of Jason fail to stand here,
as usual. Finally, He has no idea how the world for FATAL (Neveria) will end-up, based on
the FATAL system rules alone. The reader should know that this is what he tries to call a
review.

</blockquote>

Actually, I tell a
lie. One aspect of whoring you won't see FATAL spend time on is sexually transmitted
disease. Yep, with the loving attention Hall pays to sex, genitalia, whoremongering, and
rape, there isn't one damn word in the entire book about STDs.

So Hall's either
careless beyond imagination, or didn't feel "the most difficult, detailed, and
realistic game available" needed to present anything that might be a possible
consequence to raping and fucking your brains out. Your call!

<blockquote>
I searched for information on sexually transmitted diseases in the Middle Ages.
Although I did not search with vigor, the few times that I have searched, I have failed to
find any information. Some others have made this same argument. When I asked them to
provide a source, so that I can include the information, I never heard from them again. If
Jason were credible, he would provide a scholarly source.
Burnout: From what I have heard, they existed but nobody was able
to diagnose STDs. Not that I see it mattering much. Considering the fact that in
FATAL youd be lucky if a character lived long enough to be effected by the long term
effects of STDs. And in the short term most would be nothing more than minor
annoyances. Every 1d4 hours you must scratch your balls due to crabs. Or due to urinary
tract infection take 1d2 LP of damage during each urination over the next 1d4 weeks. Only
problem is, as stated by Byron, no one has brought a scholarly text to prove they even
existed let alone could be diagnosed.

Then there's the charts - pages and pages and pages of charts. I
should mention that the Bodily Attractiveness stat affects your breast cup size, although,
of course, only for women.
Does Darren intend to argue that Bodily Attractiveness should affect the cup size of
men? I hope that Darren's lack of clarity does not frustrate the reader. By the way,
multiple historical texts indicated that large, spherical breasts were desirable. This was
noted in the series by Giles, in either _Life in a Medieval Village_, _Life in a Medieval
City_, or _Life in a Medieval Castle_. It has been noted in other books as well, but these
are sufficient to support my claim for now, especially since Darren's claim is unclear, at
best.
Oh, and you can get "retard strength". Check the
formula out for determining this:
(71 - retard Intelligence) x 3 = (% chance of Retard Strength).

I hate the author. I really fucking do.
Is Darren close to retardation, or is he close to those with retardation? There must be
a reason he is emotional and takes this so personally. He only notes that Retard Strength
exists, and that he hates me for it. By the way, I have neither searched nor found any
material supporting Retard Strength. However, it is important to note that it is based on
the experiences of some females I knew in college. Their jobs, about which they were
obviously never overjoyed, consisted of taking care of retards. They would tell stories of
how some of them would flip out, and how it would take multiple male nurses, or whatever
they are, to subdue them. At any rate, the girls were impressed with each such occurence,
stunned by the surprising strength of retards. In fact, if you observe the features of
someone with Down's Syndrome, for instance, you will notice that their metabolism seems
not quite right, and that they seem thicker than average. Another thought is that retards
may not know the limits of their strength. Sometime I will focus on exploring the validity
of Retard Strength, but for now, that is all the information I have on the subject.
</blockquote>

Sartin: As bad as Darren's making this sound, he hasn't been telling you
the tenth of it. These abilities - and the charts for them - could deep-throat a sperm
whale. 

Not counting the
4d100/2-1 roll (may it burn in hell), there are three central, massive idiocies at work
here. In order:

<blockquote>
Burnout: Its your opinion that the roll should burn in
hell. Then show any other RPG that has a roll for abilities that better emulates the Bell
Curve.

</blockquote>

Lame ass references
and quotes

I love how when every sub-ability mentions skills or bodily features or
combat stats, we get a big "(SEE CHAPTER (insert lame ass chapter number
here))", as though we're too stupid to catch the chapter references in any of the
other 19 sub-abilities that are right next to it. But then again, FATAL was written for
FATALites, not you or me or anyone else whose IQ doesn't begin with a decimal point, so I
guess it's necessary.

And even though I've gone to great lengths to be clear, such as with the premises of
the game, Darren and Jason failed to consider them. Also, one reason for multiple
references to other chapters on the same page (but not to the same chapter from the same
sub-heading) is because a reader may randomly select a page and a paragraph, and be
redirected appropriately. Unlike a conventional book, a gaming book is not often read in a
linear, front-to-back, fashion, even if it should be (and these two provide the example).

And I have to love
that "Brute force bereft of wisdom falls to ruin by its own weight" quote -
yeah, it's utterly hypocritical, but it's also half-assedly ironic, given that nearly
every FATALite to date has presented themselves as a total death- and rape-monger while
having no clue how much their belovedly rape-enabling game sucks.

Whether you like or dislike this quote, it
is from Roman times, so it supports historical accuracy. Why is it hypocritical? In fact,
isn't it hypocritical for Jason to call it hypocritical (see above)? Besides, I've never
presented myself as a rape-monger, though FATAL does enable rape. 

General
idiocy/pointlessness

Like Intelligence:
Spacial. With a way cool "Unfamiliar Object Assembly (# of pieces)" column. This
would be the most complex machine a character can understand or some shit. Those with 100
Spacial can only understand machines with 200 parts, but with above-average Spacial, that
will quickly grow to thousands of parts. Of course, where you're going to find something
with that many parts in the most realistic fantasy setting available is a mystery to us
both.

<blockquote>
By the way, it's not "Spacial," but Spatial Intelligence. Since Jason's
imagination seems limited, I will offer instances of objects with numerous parts: A
clockmaker qualifies as someone who needs to understand objects with numerous parts. An
engineer such as an archtect needs to understand objects with numerous parts. FATAL is
possibly the only fantasy medieval game that lets a player role-play diverse and accurate
characters such as these.
Burnout: Actually I find Spatial Intelligence very important in
my line of work even though not dealing directly with mechanical parts. Being a Quality
Control Supervisor I have to look at blueprints and imagine how the part will look in a
three-dimensional space by only seeing one to three views in two-dimensional space. In
some instances the part cant be made from only one piece so I have to figure out
what the smallest number of pieces it would take to complete said part. Quite an
intriguing concept. 
</blockquote>

Or the Math
sub-ability, with a "Highest math possible" column. Huh. I had no idea Geometry
is the highest math any character can understand.

<blockquote>
A premise of the game is historical accuracy. In terms of technology, the year for the
game is 1335 A.D. Calculus was not invented prior to this year, so geometry is the highest
possible math that a character can understand. Again, Jason offers no support for his
argument, which is obviously fallacious.
</blockquote>

Or the Common Sense
sub-ability, with a "likely to" column to explain what low Common Sense
characters are likely to get caught doing. The lowest possible rating is "Get caught
for greater scheme: attempt to kill a god", but "Appear at emergency room after
getting dick caught in zipper" and "Write FATAL" are just as likely.

The Vocal
sub-ability has that "gay" note, of course, but if you're around 88-114, your
description is "ordinary". Now check out the descriptions above and below it: 

84-87: "Always says 'uh' or 'uhm'" 
88-114: "Ordinary" 
115-120: "Avoids 'uh' or 'uhm'"

So where does this
leave "ordinary" speakers? Do they avoid "uh" and "uhm" half
the time, and always use them the other half? It's a mystery for the ages, or for
whoever's got Hall's bong.

Yes, the ordinary person uses vocal
fillers such as "uh" and "uhm".

Burnout: Lets just say an ordinary person uses them. But
not always. But, also fails to avoid them. So they sometimes use uh and
uhm.

And it's cool to
know that Health will help out with that Urinating skill. And it helps with your hearing,
too, for some reason. Also, did you know that only people with below-average Health can
have allergies? So if you have even one allergy, congratulations: you're a FATAL weenie
and will have a penalty on Urinating. Disgraced, you will be hopeless until you realize
that all you have to do is fucking drink a two liter already and wait a day, which will
give you a high enough mod to automatically score a "flood" on the chart and (if
you're average height) get it as far as 16 feet with total accuracy (naturally, being
"the most realistic game available", FATAL makes no distinction between power
and accuracy. Or, for that matter, the ever-increasing difficulty in "holding
it").

Although I'll refuse to consider why Jason
may have difficulty holding it, I'll admit that FATAL could be more realistic here, which
is a core goal of the game. It seemed overly complicated to introduce hearing as a
sub-ability, so realism was sacrificed in this instance. As nothing's perfect, Jason
successfully attacks an element of the game. I can live with it.

But speaking of
realism and Urination, what's really cool is that you can't piss unless you roll over
5...and the roll is d100 + Urination Skill Points + (average of Health and Hand-Eye
Coordination skill modifiers) +/- ("Time Since Last Urination vs. Ounces Drunk"
modifier).
That sounds realistic to me. Though a person can usually force a little out, it's
possible to truly not have to go. And for what it's worth, Health can certainly relate to
a character's bladder.
Of course, you'll
have to drink at least 16 ounces if you want to urinate without a penalty or having to
wait more than half an hour, but that isn't very hard. FATAL characters can practically
urinate at will! I have this stupid image in my mind of them beating down their opponents,
chugging down those drinks, and standing around holding their dicks (and diddling every
open hole in sight) for that half an hour just waiting for that Urination roll. Hell, they
probably carry huge funnels so they can be extra quick with getting in the 256 ounces (and
+80 mod) that will all but guarantee a "flood". Fucking shit, they probably have
greasy T-shirts over their armor that say "PENIS! CUNT! ANAL CIRCUMFERENCE! Put a
condom on my head, I'm a FATALITE!" God with a flying orgasm, SenZar has never looked
so mature and deep as it does this fucking moment.<o:p>

<blockquote>
Burnout: I would just like to point out the hypocritical nature
of the urination statement made here. While he attacks the skill itself and finds no need
he stated earlier (Glad you remembered from page one) that he wanted to  inject
kerosene into my bladder, piss on them, and then set them on fire. So he forces me
to ask if he would have a need for a urination skill check instead of injecting kerosene.

</blockquote>

But hey. If you can
get that Urination skill up to 100, that will cancel out the worst possible penalty for
drinking 0 ounces. Spell your name with the realism!

Of course, what Jason fails to consider is
that for a character to acquire a Urination skill with a Skill Modifier of 100, the
character must, on average, have achieved 20 levels, which most never will.

Oh, and about that
Retard Strength? It's only +2d10 for humans. And with abilities running from 1-199 (and
occasionally beyond), that's not exactly worth bothering with. But that's what makes it so
100% FATALish - it reveals Hall's total wankerness, but adds more or less nothing to the
game.

It adds realism to the game. A gain of 20
Strength sub-ability points can be considerable. For example, if an average male human has
115 Strength and bench presses 150 lbs., then an average male human with a maximized
Retard Strength of 135 (115 + 20) could bench press 203 lbs. Therefore, it adds something
to the game. More than anything, it (hopefully) discourages players from being so willing
to play retards. In DnD, the most popular RPG, abilities are determined with 3d6, offering
a range of 3-18. I think most gamers have known fighters who easily accept a character who
is retarded, if Intelligence were truly considered as a normal curve.

<blockquote>
The fact that there
are fucking *20* increasingly pointless and redundant stats, and the way they interconnect
or fail to is stupid
</blockquote>

None of the sub-abilities are redundant. As
usual, Jason does not support his argument.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Actually, in contrast all the abilities and
sub-abilities are very useful for at least three separate skills. 
</blockquote>

Let's go right to Bodily Attractiveness. Oh, look: "Males with high
Bodily Attractiveness tend to have high Physical Fitness, Strength, and Height" -
yeah, maybe if all four stats weren't ''totally random''. Sure, high Bodily Attractiveness
will boost those a little, but even if yours is the mind-blowingly maximum roll of 199,
you'll only get a +18 bonus. You'll forgive me for going "Woooooo!" in the most
intensely sarcastic voice I can muster. It's not enough of a "tendency" to
matter much of a shit against the random element. <o:p>

<blockquote>
Bear in mind that the "random element" creates a distribution that
approximates a normal curve. Jason mistakenly implies that players roll a single die that
produces a range of 1-199, which is obviously false. For example, if a male has a Bodily
Attractiveness sub-ability of 199, then it would increase their Physical Fitness,
Strength, and Height by 18. Considering only Strength, a male character that had an
average Strength of 115, would apply the + 18 modifier, and have a Strength of 133. This
character's bench press would increase from 150 to 190. Of course, the ludicrous portion
of this example (the Bodily Attractiveness of 199) is part of Jason's argument. In order
to have this sub-ability, a player has to roll '00' (otherwise known as 100), 4 times
consecutively. The odds are 1-in-100,000,000 (100 x 100 x 100 x 100). Even in this extreme
instance, FATAL seems realistic. Jason made a weak argument, again.
</blockquote>

But fuck it. For
FATAL guys, pretty = stronger. I'd add some crude speculation here about what team Hall is
batting for, but I can't think of one homosexual on this forum who even remotely deserves
the degradation of being lumped in with him. (It's just too damn bad my team doesn't want
him, either.)
For most females, attractive males =
stronger males, within reason. Jason seems adversive to the thought; I wonder why.
<blockquote>
Burnout: I guess Sartin hasnt had enough contact with
females to realize this yet. But if I remember correctly it was a female who brought this
to your attention wasnt it Byron?
</blockquote>

Meanwhile, the
inverse is also presented - low manly Bodily Attractiveness penalizes your Physical
Fitness, Strength, and Height. Guess there aren't historical or realistic
"tendencies" towards ugly bruisers.

When a male is stronger, he tends to be
more athletic. Males who tend to be more athletic also tend to be more physically
attractive to females. Nevertheless, Jason oversimplifies his argument. Jason fails to
consider two other factors: Physical Fitness and Facial Charisma. He seems to have meant
that a character who is strong, has an ugly face, but isn't very fit. This combination is
likely. Jason's argument is poorly considered.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Im starting to get tired of finding contradiction
in the reviewers statements. But here we go again, he just said a couple paragraphs
ago that its not a big enough mod to be effective against the random element. Now he
states that because of the inverse, ugly bruisers werent the tendency. The fact is
according to what Ive seen during game-testing, both ugly and good-looking bruisers
are, about, equally probable.
</blockquote>

But guess what! All
that shit's only for males. Like Darren already mentioned, female Bodily Attractiveness
increases your Cup Size. It also decreases your Strength and Weight. Again, total
bullshit. But what the hell. It's nice to know the ideal FATAL girl is a death camp
survivor with a basketball under each nipple.

Somehow, I don't
think that shit flew during history, either.

I always thought that the medieval
standard of beauty for a female was that she was fat, because it meant that she was
wealthy. This is not true according to the Giles books, cited earlier. They quote another
historical source, that claims that the perfect woman has large, round breasts, blond
hair, and a waist that a man can fit his hands around. Obviously this is as unrealistic as
the measurements of the Barbie doll. Some things never change. Jason thought wrongly, as
seems to be the case in this 'review.'

<blockquote>
Burnout: This really surprised me as well. I thought the medieval
standard of beauty wasnt fat, but plump. For both the wealth factor and the fact
they assumed larger waist meant they could bear more children.
</blockquote>

Naturally, most
games just give you stats and let you picture how they fit together. (It's a fun process I
call "getting to visualize the character you actually created".) But then, those
games weren't designed by misogynistic human accidents who would lose a battle of wits
with an plus-sized assplug dressed up as a crack pipe. FATAL, sadly lacking that
distinction, insists on drunkenly interconnecting these stats in ways that have a flung
piece of shit's chance in heaven of being "historically/mythically accurate"
because, gee, it's not like standards of attractiveness have been TOTALLY DIFFERENT in
different eras, places, and myths or anything.

TOTALLY different? So, a female that is
obese and flat-chested was the greatest natural aphrodisiac in what era, place, or myth?
Obviously, Jason doesn't mean what he says. Just the same, I admit that cultural variation
exists, but also acknowledge the norm across such variance. Cultural variation is not
covered in the core FATAL book, and will be covered in the second and final book,
_Neveria_.

Burnout: Actually I
find what is called "getting to visualize the character you actually created,
more like laziness of game creators to make a complete character. Whenever gaming in
D&D or any other game, the fact that they didnt state eye color, hair color, or
anything like that, I never cared to know those things. But, now playing FATAL where they
are stated for you I find its nice to know such things. 

But noooooo. In
FATAL, sexiness has one standard, everywhere, all the time, all over the world, because
Hall apparently forgot the exact meaning of the words "realistic" and
"historically" after he hit his head on that toilet I mentioned when I
deciphered his research. Oh, well.

Of course, FATAL
hardly gets its head any farther out of its ass with the stats it doesn't stupidly try to
interconnect. Can you predict what can happen when character facets like speech or beauty
or intelligence are governed by three or four totally random stats each? Just keep
reading.

If Jason read the game, then he knows that
sub-abilities are not totally random. In addition to the sub-abilities representing a
normal curve, each may be modified by other factors, such as gender and race. Rants do not
even take effort to undermine with reason.

Facial Charisma at
175+ gives you a description of "causes wetness". And with all the total
randomness, it's so cute that you can blow that Bodily Attractiveness roll badly enough to
get a head start on being the strongest, fattest woman alive, but still roll enough Facial
Charisma to catch boners anyway. Fucking FATAL.

See above.
Burnout: First off, Id like to see such a variance occur,
with the rolls being closely related to a Bell curve I just dont see it happening.
Besides, I have seen females that from the neck up are pretty good looking. Its just
less common than the inverse, which Ive also seen, its so common I actually
have a word to describe them Butterface. When someone looks good all over
but her face."

Wow, look!
Enunciation! Naturally, this is a sub-ability of Dexterity. You'd think it would be under
Charisma or Intelligence, but I guess you see something stupid every day. Anyfuck, I
really like how Enunciation determines your "Maximum Speech Rate", but
Rhetorical Charisma determines your "Average Speech Rate". Ugh. NO ONE FUCKING
CARES.

Cool, so don't use it. However, if Jason
played a character who needs Enunciation, then it would be important to him. Jason seems
incapable of seeing beyond his nose, since the world is full of people who'll probably
play differently than he does. FATAL accommodates more gamers with more occupations,
realism, detail, accuracy, etc., than any other game, as far as I know.

<blockquote>
Burnout: What Sartin also forgets to mention is that with a
higher or lower than average Enunciation, spell chanting time is adjusted to make it take
less or more time respectively.
</blockquote>

Of course, since
both sub-abilities are (say it with me) totally random, we don't really know what happens
when your Maximum Speech Rate ends up being lower than your Average Speech Rate, but it's
just on this side of "totally possible".

See the annihilation of his "totally
random" argument above.

Tying into these two
nicely, of course, is Language (an Intelligence sub-ability). Especially that
"possible # of languages learned" column. Naturally, with FATAL being the
"detailed" and "realistic" game that it is, it's possible to get a
high Enunciation and Rhetorical Charisma without rolling high enough in Language to
actually be able to speak a language.

Has anyone ever seen a review of a review?
Jason's adverb "nicely" is misplaced. Since it relates to the verb, it is better
suited next to "Tying," such as "Tying nicely into..." Some animals
are capable of enunciating very specific sounds, yet do not speak a language as FATAL uses
the term. Perhaps the bellow of one retarded ogre is more charismatic than that of
another. After all, the definition of Rhetorical Charisma states that it is to solicit
emotions. On that level, one bellow could solicit emotions better than another. I think
Jason's point was that if a character plays a retarded ogre who is incapable of language,
that it frustrates him that his character could still have a high Rhetorical Charisma,
even though it seems useless. From the normal curve of nature, Jason's arguments seem
useless, yet he still wrote a review. See a similarity?

Burnout: To
elaborate, weve all probably heard a parrot talk or say a few words. Does that mean
it knows a language? Of course not, it can just enunciate those few words well and,
probably doesnt know the meaning of them, except that it means the parrot gets a
treat.

Am I amazed that
Hall came up with all those bullshit interconnections for Bodily Attractiveness, but
didn't bother to imagine how any of his other attributes might fit together? If FATAL were
a movie, it would make Battlefield Earth look like an utterly convincing, well-considered
masterpiece.

At least Jason tried to support this
beforehand, even though he failed miserably.

Of course, we can't
let all this shit go without looking at the age modifiers.

Infant modifiers are
presented, in case you wanted to play Baby Geniuses against a backdrop of anus fisting and
16 foot urination. And it's not as crippling as you'd think, either. The total Strength
modifier is -90, so if you were lucky enough to roll 180 Strength or so, your infant
adventurer will be about as strong as an average adult human. Bodily Attractiveness is
also -90, so again, an excellent roll will still leave you with average adult fuckability
and little or no BA penalty to those Seduction and Sexual Adeptness rolls.

I am surprised to read a valid argument from
Jason.  I thank him for thinking, even if it took 300 attempts (eh, rough guess).
This is easily fixed. Instead of the modifier being a - 90, it will be a - 90%.

Burnout: I think
without a doubt he hit upon something that needed to be changed, and changing it to a
percentage will definitely do the trick. Now weve come across, finally, the reason
for a review.

I've flushed RPGs that
were better thought out this.

It seems Jason meant "thought out THAN
this."

Language is also a
blast when you toss it through the age modifier bullshit. With the Child-category penalty,
you'll have to roll at least 95 for that, or you won't be capable of learning a language
until you hit puberty. (Roll less than 65, and you'll have to wait until adulthood. Below
55, of course, is that magical threshold where you'll either jump off a cliff or face a
lifetime of being unable to say "Look, shithead! I can't learn any languages!")
Of course, if your race happens to be most varieties of Ogre (-50 to Language) or Troll
(-90)...

By changing the modifier to a percentage,
this works perfectly.

I also like how
Reflection (which determines your earliest memory) increases at Middle Age and Old Age. I
had no idea getting older makes you remember more of your childhood.<o:p>

<blockquote>
Of course, when a character is Venerable, they lose 50% of Reflection. However, Jason
is right that the Earliest Possible Memory should not increase into Old Age. This may
forever be a small limitation of the system, since nothing is perfect. I'm tempted to
applaud Jason, but I will not be fooled by a mere moment of coherence out of an hour of
diatribe.
Burnout: Im starting to see signs of a real review here.
Im getting worried. Im not sure how to imagine that one working out. But, it
will be worth looking in to.
</blockquote>

After all this crap,
though, I have to admit to one bright point. I liked how some of the sub-abilities
provided real life-kinda examples or descriptions for each score. Like Strength listing
how much you can lift, or the Vocal Charisma and Math columns I mentioned (okay, those
ended up being dumb anyway, but the basic idea wasn't so bad). Examples like these can
give solid ideas on how good a score really is, something many RPG systems have had
trouble with. Of course, this hardly makes up for how the generation rolls are 4d100/2-1,
or how my bitching troll berserker probably won't know any languages, or how there are 20
attributes for things a sane game could have covered with 8-10, but whatever.

A game that Jason considers sane, I consider
simple. I need it to be more complicated to keep my interest.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Could the 20 sub-abilities be done in 8-10? Yes
probably. Would it be just as detailed? No chance in hell. That is of course one thing
FATAL shoots for, is to be more detailed than other RPGs. In this aspect, FATAL
succeeds.
</blockquote>

Anyway, I hope this
entire section was mind-numbing for you. Because you can barely imagine what it's like to
read and dissect this shit-hauling train wreck.

And on that note,
let's let Darren have the review back. 

<blockquote>
Or, check this shit out:
According to a prominent philosopher, males tend to be more
spirited, savage, simple, and less cunning. Females, on the other hand, tend to be more
compassionate than males, more easily moved to tears, at the same time are more jealous,
more querulous, and are more apt to scold and strike. Females are, furthermore, more false
of speech, and more deceptive. Females are also more wakeful, shrinking and difficult to
rouse to action.
And later:
The philosopher's observations presented above are
generalizations and do not hold true for all characters. Certainly, it is possible to find
a surpassingly shameless male, or a female who is less susceptible to depression than
males, but these instances are the exception to the rule, assuming that the above
observations are correct.

This is what the authors are talking about when they say that the
game is "historically accurate"; they've taken Aristotle's thoughts on gender,
then used them to justify their own sexist stupidity.
Darren fails to represent my work, so here's the actual footnote: 
"In Book IX of "Historia Animalium," Aristotle refers to gender differences
and compares animals as well as humans. His comments are deemed relevant to the setting of
F.A.T.A.L., due to the prevalence of his opinion throughout the Middle Ages."
They make assertions, then try to weasel out of them later on in
the same paragraph - "This is all true unless what the philosopher says isn't true,
in which case it isn't true."

Of course, Darren is only quoting his imagination. Actually, my comments are not in the
same paragraph as Aristotle's, but the following paragraph (poor Darren can't seem to get
anything right). As a matter of fact, here is the paragraph about which Darren wrote:
"The philosopher's observations presented above are generalizations and do not
hold true for all characters. Certainly, it is possible to find a surpassingly shameless
male or a female who is less susceptible to depression than males, but these instances are
the exception to the rule, assuming that the above observations are correct."
As the author, I neither agreed nor disagreed with Aristotle's observations in FATAL.
Personally, I disagree with Aristotle's opinions on women, and consider Aristotle sexist.
This, however, is irrelevant. His opinions existed historically, and were accurate to
Ancient Greece, Rome, and the Middle Ages as well. This is why I noted "...assuming
that the above observations are correct."
Aristotle may have been a brilliant philosopher, but when it came
to women, his head was up his ass; ditto Plato, who thought that human women had fewer
teeth because horses were the same way. On top of that, the statements that Aristotle make
are internally self-contradictory; women are more wakeful, yet difficult to rouse to
action?
Just think about it for a second, understanding that it is a translation. I'm
suggesting that anyone should agree with it.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Of course philosophers are who you turn to when you're creating
something with a basis in reality. (And yes, especially when your beliefs are so
limp-dicked that you're only "assuming" the philosophers are correct.)

<blockquote>
As should be obvious, I do not assume that Aristotle was correct. However, in an
accurate gaming world, it is better to assume that Aristotle is correct than to impose
modern norms.
</blockquote>

That's much better
than basing your shit on the findings of, oh, researchers or historians or scientists or
anyone else whose ponderings and conclusions actually have to be based in reality.

It is hypocritical to argue (earlier) that
FATAL should be historically accurate and not impose modern ideas on the fantasy medieval
world. Yet, here Jason proposed the opposite: that it is better to use modern ideas than
classical ones. Does he understand how inconsistent his arguments are? As the footnote
states on the page he probably never read, Aristotle is appropriate to a fantasy medieval
gaming world, regarding gender; his thoughts were very influential, perhaps moreso than
anyone else.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Not having read much of Aristotles work, Im
gonna stay out of this one.
</blockquote>

Then again, Hall also
tries to wank "scholarly literature" by us to justify heavier female attribute
penalties. Here's the official rationalization:

According to the
adjustments above, it may seem as though males are superior, though it is important to
understand that there are other instances, such as nurturing, that are not apparent in the
adjustments and may become evident and valuable during role-playing. The function of
altering gender according to the table above is to shift the averages of the sexes to more
closely resemble reality. The shift in range represents masses of characters better than
extreme instances. For instance, the highest measured Intelligence is that of a female,
though by large numbers females tend to score slightly lower than males in Intelligence.
In this case, shifting the range lower for females also prevents the possibility of a
female possessing the highest Intelligence. This is an unfortunate limitation.

Fucking god, where to
begin?

By understanding that the "shift in
range represents masses of characters better than extreme instances." If Jason
understand this, then all the rest should fall into place.

"For instance,
the highest measured Intelligence is that of a female, though by large numbers females
tend to score slightly lower than males in Intelligence"?

Yeah, I'm sure that
when he wasn't attending to Sexpot Annie, Hall had a lot of fun rounding up women from
medieval Europe and testing them. Of course it's perfectly valid and "historically
accurate" to assume they would have the same Intelligence-reducing (and Bodily
Attractiveness-raising) "nurturing" and "background" as modern day
women, right?

<blockquote>
Burnout: Assuming that historical texts are correct, by and
large, most women didnt have any schooling at all. While some males didnt
either, even less females did. Also, going by in terms of masses the female gender would
have slightly less intelligence than male.
</blockquote>

What better information does Jason have?
Does Jason offer any support for his criticism? No.

And on that note, even
if Hall were claiming this shit as modern gender modifiers, he only selected the parts of
his "scholarly literature" that went along with his retarded views. Even the
first work listed, "The Smarter Sex: A Critical Review of Sex Differences in
Intelligence" (by D. Halpern and M. LaMay) claims that males more frequently have
certain types of mental retardation, but you're sure as fuck not going to find that in
these rules.

This is because Jason fails to understand
distributions of Intelligence when controlling for gender. Males have wider distributions,
or distributions with less central tendency, larger standard deviations, etc. Considering
Intelligence, female distributions have more central tendency. What this means is that
when considering large numbers of females, they tend to be closer to the mean, while males
tend to deviate farther from it. Therefore, there are more male retards and geniuses, and
females are more average. However, this is irrelevant to the gender modifier. The gender
modifier does not affect the central tendency of the distribution, but the mean itself.
Jason seems to know nothing of even basic statistics.

As a side note, I have considered having
separate die-rolling methods for males and females. Male characters roll their
sub-abilities with [(8d100)/4 - 1], while females roll [(10d100)/5 - 1]. When both
standard deviations are considered, the average is 15! This would be a novel contribution
to RPG's.

"In this case,
shifting the range lower for females also prevents the possibility of a female possessing
the highest Intelligence. This is an unfortunate limitation"?

Burnout: What Sartin
forgets to mention is that according to gender modifiers, males cant acquire the
highest bodily attractiveness, language, intuition, or reflection. This is also an
unfortunate limitation.

Translation:
"Yeah, this is an unfortunate limitation...which I just admitted creates a result
that isn't true in reality (because I forgot I'm designing the most realistic RPG
available)...but guess what? I haven't taken it out, because I would rather claim that the
female masses are stupider than men than make my rules accept that at least one woman has
scored a higher IQ than any man to date!"

Wrong. Even though I include this
information, I am fair and not sexist. I understand that these issues are always
sensitive. Just the same, it is less biased to consider the mean to be more important than
an outlier. Especially when it is now possible (though not in the version currently
available -- I'll update it soon) for a female character (and a male as well) to raise
their Intelligence. Therefore, a studious female may surpass all males. I am very proud of
how closely this models reality, especially considering the simplicity of the model.

It's an ugly game.

This is an ugly review.
----
[[FATALReviewRebuttal|Go to part 1]] - [[FRRpart3|Go to part 3]]

FRRpart2

2014-07-08T08:08:10Z

Tyciol: creating back button

FRRpart3

2014-07-08T08:07:12Z

Tyciol: creating a back button

Part 3/5 of the FATAL Review Rebuttal. --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]]
----
<blockquote>
There's also the issue that the average human being will have had
experience with women, as opposed to the Dunwich-dwelling inbred shack cavemen that wrote
FATAL. They borrow stupid generalizations about women from ancient philosophers because
they don't have the stones to say what _they_ want to say about women; namely, that they
are good because they have penises and women are just there to be slaves to them. This is
just pathetic on a Biblical scale.
It's been covered before, but since Darren is redundant, I'll reiterate that ancient
and medieval sources, including ones with which I disagree, are cited to be historically
accurate. This supports the premises of the game.

Burnout: I have to point out that I rather enjoy the company of
females, as do most Fatalists. They bring a whole different approach to the table as far
as conversation and just hanging out than do males.
The races: Don't particularly care about them; all of the
mythology that they're shitting on has already been done, and done better, by D&D.
Worse yet, the game has monstrous PCs - this in a game that claims historical accuracy,
but can have monstrous PCs in the same game as human PCs. As a matter of fact, the game
isn't so much historically accurate - y'see, that would actually require work - as it is
historically related, in the same way that humans are distantly related to microbes.
Races have been lightly researched, and sources have been cited, referenced by
footnotes. That's more than I can say for any other game.
Burnout: What readers should know is where Darren focuses on
historical accuracy here, he forgets to notice the part about mythical accuracy. When you
combine the two you get a world of human PCs with monstrous PCs.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Yeah, the races also sucked a hot one. Oh, look, you can be an
"anakim" half-demon-kinda-character. That was so cool when SenZar did it. SEVEN.
YEARS. AGO. 

SenZar had anakim? I doubt it, though I admit I've never observed the game.

Except that even
SenZar Demonians were never this lame. "Most anakim are the result of an incubus or
succubus mating with a human. These anakim are more commonly called cambion. Oftentimes,
cambion children show no signs of life until they are seven years in age"? Right.

Actually, yes, right. This is historically
accurate. About the "no signs of life" part, I don't believe that was in the
source cited as a footnote, but it was found on-line. I hesitate to use on-line resources,
and am sorry that I cannot support it at this moment. If this were the only thing
criticized, I would look it up. Suffice it to say, I did not invent this part.

Would-Be Mortal Mother: Oh, no, a stillborn! Oh, wait, I died during
childbirth. 

Lord Asmodean,
Master of the Seven Phalluses: Huh. We should keep it around for seven years, just in
case!

For some reason,
anakim are also the only monstrous race to not have Bodily Attractiveness or Facial
penalties. Despite that they also have to roll d10 weird physical traits on a d100 table.
Hmmm...

Bear in mind that an incubus or succubus is
an attractive demon.

09: The anakim has
cat-like eyes. The character loses d8 Facial Charisma since the eyes are so large and
round..

Huh. Okay:

18: The anakim has the
legs of a goat.

24: The anakim has the
odor of rotting flesh extend one foot away from their body.

25: The anakim has
eyes that are permanently bloodshot.

54: The anakim has
gils on the side of their neck, allowing them to breathe underwater.

64: The anakim has a
third eye in the middle of their forehead. Having three eyes improves Vision by 1d20
points. Since 50 Vision points is perfect Vision, these bonus points are applied in this
direction.

66: The anakim is
accompanied by an odor of feces which extends 1d6 feet from their body.

I wonder why those and
many other disgusting or deforming results aren't worth an attractiveness penalty.
"Historically/mythically accurate" standards of beauty sure are a bitch to
figure out, aren't they?<o:p>

<blockquote>
Jason's right, I'm putting it in.
</blockquote>

More good ones:

40: The anakim causes
humans within one foot to desire anal sex according to their sexuality.

As usual, in case you
forgot someone was holding a gun to your head and making you read FATAL. Or that sexuality
can be argued to include "Does not desire anal sex from either gender".

It is numerically impossible for an anakim
to be asexual. Jason's back to senseless arguments again.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I think he means the anakim doesnt desire anal
sex. Not the fact the anakim doesnt desire sex, period. And the fact is that any
anakim with a debauchery score of less than 70 will not desire anal sex.
</blockquote>

45: The anakim is
cannibalistic. Eating vegetables will make this anakim nauseated.

Uh, I think
"carnivorous" is the word you're looking for there.

Nope, I meant cannibalistic. Is that too
complicated for Jason to consider that a cannibal may eat the meat of other creatures, but
that eating vegetables will nauseate them? Apparently so.

95: The anakim has
abnormal hatred for females. Whenever within 1d100 feet of one, the anakim must make a
Drive check at TH 30 or attack with the intent to kill.

That's nice. Given the
contempt FATAL in general already shows females, I'd hate to imagine what it would
consider an "abnormal hatred" of them. And that 1d100 thing. What the fuck?
Every time a female might get within 100 feet, does he have to roll to see just how many
feet she can come before he has to make the Drive check? Or does he just roll once, when
the character is created? But why make it so totally random?

It is nice, when taken in context, which
Jason fails to consider. For example, he failed to mention:

"94 The anakim has abnormal hatred for
males."

If Jason considered this one, then his claim
of contempt for females is biased, not the game. Soon, anakim traits will be included in
the FATAL Character Generator, and it will be apparent that you should only roll once. I
wish Jason weren't so easily confused.

Burnout: It seems the
emphasis of this review though: To take things out of context and pass it off as misogyny
or lack of research.

Oh, right.
"Historical/mythical accuracy". Cause, you know, there's lots of myths where one
half-demon hacked apart women when they got within 90 feet, but another half-demon could
stand them as close as 15 feet.

Ok, ok, so we (I say 'we', because Ryan came
up with most of these) took liberties here for fantasy. Just the same, the game does not
contradict history, it merely expounds on what is accurate.

But whatever. There
are races other than anakim, but Darren's right. None of it is worth caring about.

Still, it's cool to
see that even in a "historically/mythically accurate" game, humans still have a
lifespan of 73 years.

Again, it is obvious that Jason knows little
of lifespan. While on the one hand, lifespans were short in the Middle Ages. They were
also very long for many of the Ancient Greeks. How long did Gorgias live? Scholars
speculate, what, 80, 90? What about Democritus? The same is true of countless others. This
demonstrates that the human lifespan was not simply less-evolved, but that with proper
nutrition and exercise, a human could live a long life. Also note that humans reach Middle
Age at 31. This was difficult to determine, and I did consider the lifespans noted in
several books. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough room to footnote every sentence.
Research this on your own, but be fair and cover a wide variety of sources as I have.

And that on the Racial
Hatred table, "hatred" is by far the most common attitude between races,
especially for humans (despite their status as the most "neutral" race). In
fact, the only races FATAL humans have anything less than total hatred for are themselves
and all three races of non-dark dwarves and elves. Oh, wait, they only dislike anakim,
despite that race's legendary, mythically accurate, [http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/deadearth.html deadEarth]-like abilities to
smell like shit, have triple-size penises, or be walking anal sex aphrodisiacs.

Well, some anakim smell like shit. The
anakim are still human in form, unless altered by their trait table, and are still likely
to be attractive. Finally, they are still half-human.

Naturally, humans have
not just a lack of hatred, but a preference for each other. I guess there's either just
one human race in FATAL (white, of course), or that all the interracial tensions that
sadly exist even today weren't historically accurate enough to bother mentioning.

One assumption I have made in writing FATAL,
and it won't be made explicit until the gaming world is written, is that all non-European
influence has been removed. That's right, I've attempted to minimize Asian,
Middle-Eastern, and Egyptian influences, as well as others. Therefore, corpses are not
embalmed and buried, but burned. Asian spices do not exist, nor does tobacco or zombies.
Consequently, the human race is Caucasian. This is not racism, but merely the result of
restricting the scope of the game to only that which originated in Europe. Hopefully, you
will not find food, plants, herbs, monsters, nor anything else originating from outside
Europe.

<blockquote>
In addition, there's huge areas of white space reserved for
artwork, which I guarantee you will never be filled.
Darren's guarantee was being broken as he wrote those words.

Burnout: Just a side note, I have seen the cover page as it will
appear in the final version and it looks kick ass. I cant wait to see the rest of
the art.
You can find personality traits matched up with physical traits,
in a bit of quackery that used to be called physiognomy. The guys who wrote FATAL never
met a discredited science that they didn't immediately hump the leg of.
Oh, and here's the cream of the crop: You can actually roll to
determine randomly determined sexual characteristics, including vaginal circumference -
how much a particular vagina can accept. The fun part is, as these morons would know if
they'd even been in contact with a vagina, is that a vagina can expand to any size - like,
say, in childbirth, another facet of life which these chimpanzees in short pants forgot
about.
Darren expresses his limited knowledge of the vagina. Although a vagina can expand, it
may not have sufficient time to expand without ripping when encountering a manhood that
exceeds its Vaginal Circumference Potential. I have known it to happen.
Burnout: Darren also states childbirth as his example. But, with
his limited knowledge, he probably doesnt know that a lot of vaginas do rip
during childbirth, being stitched up after. Thats why most women cant have sex
for a time after childbirth.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Their knowledge of nipples is sadly lacking, too: "A nipple
that is not erect may have no length whatsoever." Come on. Even recluses who wank to
porn know better than that.

<blockquote>
Jason's wrong, but offers no support anyway, so what's the difference?
</blockquote>

And it's nice to see that both "nymphomaniacs" and
"sluts" have separate modifiers to the Vaginal Circumference roll. That might
keep them from rolling too low a circumference for even an average infant to pass through.

Burnout: Seems reasonable to me. The more sex someone has, the wider her
vaginal circumference potential should be. 

And I love that
Vaginal Depth Potential: "A females Vaginal Depth Potential equals her height
in feet converted to inches (such as a female of 5 6 becoming equivalent to 5
1/2), and then (2d20)% is added."

It doesn't amaze me
that Hall felt this was so important that such a detailed rule was needed for it. If he's
ever fucked, it was missionary and in total darkness.

I don't think it's very detailed. In fact, I
think it's simple. FATAL could have more complicated sex.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Well, it could be possible to injure a woman by going
too deep. From personal experience I know the pain it can cause. But now thinking about it
there should be a negative modifier to sexual adeptness because of the pain it causes. 
</blockquote>

And there's your Anal
Circumference roll, in case someone needs to figure out if they can fit their penis or
blade or fist (yes, there's a Fist Circumference roll, too) in there. Try to get out of
rolling it, though, because you don't wanna read sentences like "Should any anus be
stretched beyond the limit as determined by the table below, which differs from anus to
anus, the orifice will rip to accommodate the incoming object. First, consider all
relevant modifiers, then roll percentile dice and proceed to the following table"
without the assistance of alcohol.

<blockquote>
Burnout: This statistic actually got added because someone on
RPGnet had a problem with the fact there were no gays in the game. So we had to figure out
a way to add Quote Darren sweaty man love."
</blockquote>

Of course, no true
discussion of FATAL would be complete without Hymen Resistance, too. This is a 5d20 roll
for female virgins, the result of which is the percent chance per intercourse that the
hymen will resist breaking. They must grow membranes pretty tough in FATALworld...the
average roll for that is around 52%, and I'm pretty damn sure they break way more often
than that. While we're on the subject, the length of the intercourse or the size of the
man's manhood don't figure into the breakage roll at all. God fucking almighty. You can't
even stick your dick in the realism here.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I have been with 4 women in my life who had not had
their hymen breached the first time. Now I cant say how this reflects on the period
in which FATAL takes place. But at least for modern times it seems close to accurate.
Jason doesn't have to write "man's manhood," as if to distinguish it from a
woman's manhood. However, Jason is correct that Manhood should affect Hymen Resistance.
Thank you for offering constructive criticism, Jason!

</blockquote>

You can also roll your
Facial Features, Hair Thickness, Most Attractive and Most Repulsive Features, and
quadrillions of other things that a sane game would be content to just let you choose, in
the unlikely event you even cared.

<blockquote>
I argue that it takes more role-playing skill and maturity to randomly determine your
character, and play it accordingly. This also minimizes the likelihood that players will
play the same types of characters time and again, and therefore forces them to explore
role-playing better than other games. What is sane to Jason seems cheesy to me.
</blockquote>

Meanwhile, the Skin
Color roll runs the gamut from deathly pale to merely tan. No brown or dark or anything,
though. Further evidence that FATAL is a white boy's club.

See above.

<blockquote>
Oops, wait: That's covered a few pages later, with more nonsense
gleaned from scanning a medical text. (A 15% chance of miscarriage? Uh-uh. Labor takes
"up to" fourteen hours? Uh-uh.) And the real head kicker is that being pregnant
reduces Bodily Attractiveness by 1d20: "Although in some sense a pregnant female is
'beautiful', her Bodily Attractiveness is negatively affected."
Burnout: I take it when Darren says in some sense
pregnant female is 'beautiful'. He means it like I think it would be, If my child
was inside of a woman it makes her more beautiful but not in a sexual manner.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Okay, rules analysis time again. Even a -20 (the worst roll for
the pregnancy penalty) isn't that bad (granted, none of the female attribute penalties
were that high, but it's the reasoning behind them that's the most ass-ramming). If you
have an average 100 Bodily Attractiveness, pregnancy will reduce you to 80 at worst - not
enough to seriously hurt your chances in the sack.

Sure, it'll reduce
your Bodily Attractiveness skill modifier from 0 to -20. But a skill's final modifier is
the average of the modifiers from all applying sub-abilities. Sexual Adeptness has three
that apply, and Seduction has two, so your BA penalty for those would only be a respective
-6 and -10 AT WORST. As skill rolls work on a d100 + modifiers roll, you can see that
being knocked up definitely won't curtail your ability to seduce and sleep around.

Nice and realistic,
like you'd expect.

<blockquote>
Burnout: First off the range would be from 0 to 21. And
seeing that seduction is at a 10 at worst thats 10%. Quite a bit. Second,
sexual adeptness refers to how good a person is in bed. Which shouldnt go down that
much cause a pregnant woman can do, with few restrictions, the same things a woman who
isnt pregnant.

See, I was quitting about this time in Synnibarr, because I made
the mistake of actually trying to read through it straight. I quit feeling frustrated for
wasted potential. Here, I'm tempted to quit because this is just so embarrassingly stupid
as to make me wonder if I've been somehow tainted by reading it; as if somehow I'm going
to wind up treating women as alien creatures made out of stats rather than, as, you know,
people.
</blockquote>

Sartin: It helps if you picture the people at FATAL Games becoming the
squealing subject matter of Deliverance 2. It won't wipe the misogynistic taint from your
mind, but it's just.

<blockquote>
Of course, there shouldn't be a misogynistic taint in anyone's mind, especially the
reader, though I'm sure this is already obvious.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Extensive charts exist for getting drunk - you actually have to
cross-reference your weight against how many drinks you've had and what kind of drinks
they were in order to figure out whether you're buzzed, intoxicated or vomiting. Unknown
Armies just gave you a 5% penalty every time you took a shot, because the people who wrote
Unknown Armies descended from creatures who were vertebrate, and also apparently damned
good at making role-playing games.
Unknown Armies doesn't sound very realistic.
Burnout: Hmm.. So according to Unknown Armies a shot affects a
100lb. person the same as a 350 lb. person. Yeah sounds like they know how to make
role-playing games. Incredibly unrealistic, un-detailed games.
</blockquote>

Sartin: The marijuana (and it's so hard not to believe they pronounce it
"mara-jah-wanna") chart is a blast, too. Following the model for pissing, the
total "inhalations per hour" versus the "time since last euphoria" are
considered to give you a Euphoria Factor. And then, in a move only a sociopathic
accountant could love, you have a long list of traits that get reduced by 1/4 or 1/2 or
once or twice the EF. Blah.

But hey. Bet you
didn't know that being high actually raises your Intuition.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Having had years of experience in this field, this seems
realistic.

Disease rules are found as well. Instead of actually using
anything closely resembling a rational system for disease, FATAL simply creates a
percentage chance of fatality, so that the bubonic plague has an equal chance of killing a
starving beggar as much as it does of killing a bugbear. You know, historically accurate
and everything.

Actually, the percentage chance is randomly determined, though Darren's right, race is
not a factor. Then again, as much life as it wiped out, I doubt race would be a factor.

There's a chapter on morality - what the book calls
"disposition" - which attempts to distill morality and ethics down into nine
separate categories, including a cross-referencing chart for what disposition hates what
and what a primary and secondary disposition work like in conjunction. If you ever have a
pressing need to hurt yourself - the kind of deep-down hurt that lasts for days - go ahead
and read through the chapter, 'cause it'll give you that feeling. Most of it is
philosophical wank that probably got recycled from one of the Greeks, or summarized; not
being a fan of philosophy, I didn't recognize anything in specific.
Not doing his job as a reviewer, Darren didn't read the footnote, citing Aristotle's
Nicomachean Ethics among other sources. It is ironic that he suggests the reader should
read through the chapter, when he apparently did not.
</blockquote>

Sartin: I would like to remark here that if you're going to make a
"population count per alignment" pie chart, you should NOT: 

a) Use only black and gray for colors. 
b) Use SHADES of those two colors for each section. 
c) Have NINE possible alignments to shade in.

Hell, this chart looks
so bad, I'll just show you now:

<blockquote>

The image used without permission is not here (mainly because I did not want to feel
obligated for the sake of consistency to put the religious picture at the end of their
review on my Website). Although it is currently in the available download as this
counter-review is written, the image was replaced weeks ago. Jason is right, believe it or
not -- the table was difficult to discern and its appearance was boring. Bear in mind that
the game is available free during development, which means that he reviewed an unfinished
product. The single table in dispute has been replaced with numerous tables, one for each
race. Now, the dispositions of each race are represented. Another change that is still
unavailable in the current download is to explain in a footnote the origins of FATAL's
disposition system.
My gaming group used to play AD&D 2e, and all of us enjoyed alignment. One day as I
was reading Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, it occurred to me that in it, Aristotle had
provided a logical system for alignment. While his logic is outdated and flawed, I still
found it to be interesting and applicable, especially since modern logic was developed
long after the year for our game, and Aristotle's logic was widely used during the Middle
Ages. In fact, Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics were, with a small change here and there,
adopted by Christianity. Therefore, his work provides a perfect comparison between modern
and ancient morals.
So, while beginning graduate school, I discussed the idea with my graduate advisor, and
together we designed a questionnaire, and I wrote a program in C language to measure the
responses of participants. I submitted the program to many Websites. When each participant
completed the survey, a .txt file was created on their computer, and the program requested
that they e-mail it to me. After a year, I had received over 300.
After I began developing FATAL in 2000, I converted my alignment-based study into the
current FATAL disposition system. About the table made in Excel that Jason attacked above,
the data was transferred from SPSS (Statistical Package of the Social Sciences), so the
disposition system in FATAL is based on an actual sample of, well, humans. 
</blockquote>

Seriously, people.

Meanwhile, it's cool
that FATAL says "individuality" and "randomness" are
"unethical", while "conformity" and "patterned" are
"ethical". (Yeah, let's get those "You keep using that word. I do not think
it means what you think it means" cracks out of the way, too.) Just the phrase
"Neutral Moral" makes me giggle, too, while we're on the subject.

Darren's assessment of
half-assed recycling from Greek philosophy isn't bad, but the Disposition/Morality chapter
is basically about Hall spending 25 pages bending "ethical/unethical" to mean
"lawful/chaotic" while babbling about the deficiencies and excesses that can
turn "morality" into immorality or evil. Gee, how innovative.

Again, Jason seems to know nothing about the
sources I provided. I didn't have to bend anything. I am proud of my disposition system. I
think the disposition system is the most innovative step in RPG's, because of how well it
is historically-based, yet covers ancients to moderns (with the exception of some of
Plato's thoughts, but that's another story).

<blockquote>
I've figured out one thing in relation to FATAL and its claims to
historical accuracy. When they say that they're historically accurate, they mean that
they've gone through...maybe fifteen books at the absolute most, and that's being awfully
generous. So, as a result, whenever you come to the conclusion that it's incredibly
sexist, you can entertain yourself with a [http://web.archive.org/web/20021029143551/www.fatalgames.com/fatalfaqsexism.html confusing, obscurantist bit of pseudoscholarship] that basically suggests that it's your problem that there isn't a
single spot in FATAL that refers to women as anything but whores. For a bit of fun, you
could go through and counterpoint every single lame point he makes with about a hundred
examples from FATAL that utterly disprove his point.
Burnout: Actually for every point in FATAL where a degrading term
is used for a female there is also one for a male. If its the problem you have with
the whore occupation, then you need to be more open-minded and understand that they did
and do exist.

Not me, of course, but somebody. (Oops - spoke too soon. Later on
in the review, I'll be dicing that up as well. Silly me. Fucking FATAL.)
As usual, Darren does not support any argument, then moves along.
So, we get to the chapter entitled "Mind", in which
personalities are divided according to the four medieval humors - sanguine, choleric,
melancholy and phlegmatic, and how to determine which one you character is. In other
words, instead of coming up with a character and using the system to help define him, you
get to roll dice in order to determine which humors are dominant; which in turn are based
on medical concepts so laughably outdated that Galen would have probably turned his nose
up at them. (Galen, incidentally, is the Greek doctor who pretty much tossed anything at
hand into a wound in order to see if it would cure it - including horse manure. He didn't
know any better.)
First, I'm sure Darren meant "...which one your character is," but was
incapable to express himself without error. As outdated as the system of temperament is, I
just read _System of Nature_ by Baron D'Holbach, written in the 1700's, and he discusses
the four temperaments. So, I guarantee that temperament is historically accurate for
FATAL.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Incidentally, the four humors also inspired the names of the four
Z'bri houses in Tribe 8: Sangis, Koleris, Melanis, and Flemis. Oh, and Tribe 8 is much
better and more mature "dark" game than FATAL. It's probably more historically
accurate, too.

Herein lies a useful
lesson for game designers: if you're making a really shitty game, don't put in things that
will remind people of much better games. (Although you have to admit it does let us
recommend much better games, ones that make FATAL look like the shitwork that it is, ones
that will reward your money with hours and hours of reading fun, as opposed to hours and
hours of vomiting and trying desperately to forget.)

<blockquote>
Burnout: FATAL is the best game Ive ever seen, so putting
things into it that make you think of better games is impossible. And spending money on
FATAL will give you hours and hours of playing fun. Which I find more important than the
reading fun Sartin talks about.

I believe that what Shithead was thinking was something along the
lines of "Okay, people in the Middle Ages tried to define people along these lines,
so should I." But the problem with defining people's behavior according to their
humors - I mean, avoiding the fact that it's blatant quackery - is that people don't fit
into four categories. Neither do they fit into four categories with four subcategories
each. Alchemy was essentially an intellectual dead end for science, and yet, in this day
and age, we've got a man trying to use them with a completely straight face - not as a
disguise for a better game mechanic, like the Nine Spheres from Mage, but as a method for
defining people.
As for why temperament is used, see above. No, I obviously don't believe in it. If it
is historically accurate that people classified according to four categories, then what
was Darren trying to argue? By the way, behavior is a worse term to use here, compared to
personality.
That creates a second disjunct in the game: There appear to be
two different authors writing the game. One of them is somebody who's read a lot of
medieval and Greek philosophy and mythology without a historical or cultural context to
put them in, and appears to be sane, if not profoundly ignorant about history. The other
is a drooling metalhead wannabe-rapist who's forced to get his jollies by masturbating
over stat blocks involving sexual characteristics. I don't know who is who, or even if
there are two people involved with this. Either way, it's scary, like Dr. Jekyll and Mr.
Jerkoff.
Multiple authors have been discussed above.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Personally, I want to believe FATAL was created by an AI that was
instructed to "Create the crappiest possible work that can still technically be
considered a RPG", and the AI not only succeeded brilliantly, but even went as far as
to start massive flame wars on RPGnet, as it studied the examples set by World of
Synnibarr, SenZar, and most especially Rifts and realized that no RPG can achieve ultimate
crappiness without obnoxious creators and fanboys to piss everyone off. 

Naturally, the truth -
that FATAL was created by actual human beings who weren't joking - is all the more
depressing.

<blockquote>
The mental illness section basically transcribes the DSM-IV's
section on various mental disorders, but offers no particular rules other than
"occurs over the next 5 + 1d100 months"; and, of course, there's tons of sexual
dysfunction listed alongside megalomania and kleptomania, just in case we forgot that we
were reading FATAL.
Burnout: Of course there are sexual dysfunctions. I dont
see why it worries people so much to have anything sexual in an RPG, to have sexual
characteristics alongside other characteristics. Ohh no. To have sexual mental disorders
alongside other mental disorders. Ohh no. I think its rather immature.

The section on medieval life is about as deep as a skillet; if
you check the references that they cite for the section, for example, you'll find Life in
a Medieval Castle / City / Village and Reign of the Phallus - but
[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520079299/qid=1047614106/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-8045536-1304132?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Reign of the Phallus]
is about ancient Rome and Greece, rather than medieval Europe. None of
them are scholarly texts, to boot, and Reign of the Phallus is sharply critiqued even in
its Amazon review for its sloppy work.
Actually, the _Reign of the Phallus_ bears a subtitle -- Sexual Politics in Ancient
Athens. It is not about Rome, but Greece. I looked at the reviews on Amazon. The first
review, entitled "History Corrupted by Politics" rates the book a 1 out of 5. He
claims the book is biased, and then spends four paragraphs explaining a point that is
unrelated to his initial claim. He argues that the Roman's valued and worshipped large
manhoods, while the Greeks valued small ones. Since the _Reign of the Phallus_ only deals
with Greek issues, it does not mention the Roman fascination, but it does mention the
Greek. The reviewer spent 4 paragraphs saying that the book is accurate, and the reviewer
didn't seem to know it.
The next review seemed to make a good argument, and one that is usually valid against
historical analyses, but did not offer an example to support their claim. Whether they
were right or not I do not know, but they failed to demonstrate it. The third review
supports the book. Overall, the work is never accused of sloppiness, but I accuse the
reviewers of it, as well as Darren.
Just in case you were in the mood for some more pain, there's a
Debauchery chart, so you can roll dice - thank fucking God, 'cause I was worried that I
wouldn't be able to suggest that FATAL's authors apparently use Rolemaster as wank
material - to find out how far a particular character will go. To make things worse, it's
a sliding scale, so that we find out that somebody who will entertain multiple partners
won't engage in anal sex.

As can be expected, Darren gets it wrong. If a character has a Debauchery that
indicates that they are willing to entertain multiple partners, they may also have a
Debauchery high enough that they are willing to engage in anal sex. Darren was sloppy when
he presented his argument. What he was unable to express is that he thinks it is
unrealistic that according to the rank-ordering of debaucherous acts, that a female
character cannot be willing to have anal sex, but unable to entertain multiple partners.
Nothing is perfect, but when considering large numbers of females, I suspect they are more
likely to represent the chart, than not.
Don't ask why, it's on a chart. It must be true if it's on a
chart.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Naturally, you can also roll to see if characters are heterosexual
or homosexual. Even better, being a male with low Strength or a female with high Strength
(or low Cup Size) will bend your modifier towards the gay end of the scale. It's nice to
see these lame stereotypes being paraded in such a realistic, historically accurate game.

Oftentimes, stereotypes exist because they are generally true; this is why they gained support in the
first place.

Meanwhile, anakim get
such a big Debauchery modifier that they'll always roll at least "Give oral
sex". Nice to be a member of a race that's guaranteed to suck, huh?

<blockquote>
Burnout: Being an offspring of succubi or incubi, which are by
nature sexual beings. So genetically the are more likely to enjoy more sexual things.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
You can also roll a d10,000,000 in order to find out how many
babies a particular woman will have, even though there are only five potential outcomes.
Fucking FATAL.
</blockquote>

Sartin: You have to wonder if Hall, exploding syphilis canker that he is,
has ever actually played his own game. You know when you roll d100, you have to say
"Okay, the red one is the tens" or whatever.
What's up here?
"Okay, red is the tens, green is the hundreds, translucent red is the thousands, blue
is the ten thousands, green speckled is - ah fuck, which one did I make the red one
again?"

And, of course, this
is yet another of those situations that comes up ALL the time in fantasy. I mean, shit.
Seeing if there's that one in ten million chance you'll bear quintuplets happens even more
often than starting the campaign in a bar fight-laden tavern.

<blockquote>
Jason's last sentence seems to mean nothing at all. In case anyone's curious, of course
I play FATAL, usually once every 3-4 weeks -- sometimes more, sometimes less.
Unfortunately, Jason is unable to roll d10,000,000, which of course only consists of
rolling 7 ten-siders, or one die 7 times and, say, writing down the results. At any rate,
he can't handle it. One of the methods of attack for Darren and Jason is to find an
obscure rule in FATAL, and then claim it would be used so rarely, it is useless. One
achievement of FATAL over other RPG's is that the game covers rare incidents as well as
common. Other game designers were too lazy to attempt to be more thorough. The more Darren
and Jason do this, the more they support FATAL, which is ironic.

And even when you do read something that apparently came out of a
more scholarly text, you know that what you're reading has been essentially pared down to
the fundamentals - in other words, whatever will paint medieval society as a gigantic orgy
and women as whores. For example, we're informed that even respectable inns will include
whores among services offered; and that the doorman, bellboys, porters, waiters, barmaids
and cleaning girls - and the cleaning girls also double as whores - will all be slaves.

Enjoy reading _Travel in the Ancient World_.
But there were very few slaves in Medieval Europe; serfs, yes,
but they had legal rights. If you go by FATAL, Medieval Europe's economy was entirely
based on whores and whore-related activities. Especially funny is the section on justice,
where we see punishments for slaves in a society in which slavery, by and large, didn't
even exist. If you commit slander against a married woman or priestess - and there were
pretty much no priestesses in Medieval Europe - you wind up getting branded with an SL.
The nimrod who wrote the section gets Roman law - which I doubt was this harsh - confused
with the law of Medieval Europe. Even worse, the punishments come from the History of
Punishment and Torture, which is basically designed to showcase the most sensationalist
punishments without the appropriate historical context.
Since FATAL extracts Christianity, law is combined from Roman and Medieval times, and
also explains the inclusion of slaves. Although I think the source I used is weak
(_History of Punishment and Torture_), I am willing to read more scholarly sources. Does
anyone have any good suggestions? Please e-mail me.
For that matter, in a game that claims to be the most
historically accurate game out there, where the fuck is the Catholic Church? Where's the
Inquisition? Where's the Hundred Years War? Where's Italy? Where's the Muslims? Where's
the Crusades? Where's the New World? Where's the Black Plague?
Since the year of technology for the game is 1335, the Black Plague hasn't happened
yet. Since Christianity has been extracted, there goes the Catholic Church, Inquisition,
Crusades, and the Hundred Years War. Since anyone or anything that originated outside of
Europe has been minimized or eliminated, the Muslims do not exist in FATAL. As for Italy,
that's a question for the second book, _Neveria_, the gaming world, not the system itself.
Although you won't see Italy itself (since it'll be a fantasy world based on history), but
expect to see similarities.
</blockquote>

Sartin: While we're at it, where's the Flat Earth, the Four Elements, and
the universe revolving around the Earth? Don't forget that Hall is also unquestioningly
accepting the conclusions of ancient Greeks on women. Why isn't he taking the Greeks at
face value on everything else, too? Poor genetic material, I would guess.

I'm glad Jason asked. the concept of a flat earth, as well as the universe revolving around
the earth, is in the book detailing the gaming world, of course. The four elements are
noted in Chapter 11: Magic, however they were mentioned previously in the review, so the
reviewers must suffer from a short attention span. I do not accept the conclusions of the
ancients, but include them for historical accuracy. FATAL is a game true to its premises.

<blockquote>
In FATAL? Nowhere.
Like I said, if the authors of this thing had even the minimal
shame that you see in a dog dragging its ass along the carpet, they would remove any
boasting about FATAL being accurate immediately. I'm not holding my breath.
The section on criminal punishments for rape: it's mostly enough
to make you sick, especially since the motherfucker who wrote it describes rape as
"taking his pleasure" - rather than as the act of vicious violence that it is.

Although rape is vicious violence, it is also the rapist taking his pleasure by force.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Hell, I'm still noxious from how the motherfucker refers to FATAL
as a RPG, rather than the miles-long monument to human worthlessness that it is.

Any thorough review of human history certainly calls into question the worth of humanity.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I personally believe that even in the present, humanity
is mostly worthless.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Well, here: look:
Rape
In an average community, an average of twenty rapes occur
annually. In 80% of cases, rapes are committed by between two and fifteen characters. 
Now, keep in mind: 80% of cases, two to fifteen rapes apiece -
yeah, Byron's apparently let the glue sniffing burn out the part of his brain that's able
to do mathematics.
Darren seems to be unable to interpret a simple sentence. If all cases of rape are
considered, according to _Medieval Prostitution_, then 80% of them were committed by
between two and fifteen rapists. The word "apiece" is Darren's, and reveals his
shortcoming in reasoning. The section on rape in Sociality is referenced from the book
just mentioned, including the statistics.

</blockquote>

Sartin: It's nice to know that FATALworld apparently has Rape Clubs
("The first rule is we don't talk about Rape Club..."). Really.

<blockquote>
They force the female's door at night, do not disguise
themselves, and either rape the victim in her home and in the presence of terrorized
witnesses, or drag the victim through the streets into one of their houses, where they
have their pleasure all night long. In 80% of cases, the neighbors do not intervene.
Almost all rapes involve extreme brutality, though they never attempt to wound or kill
her.
</blockquote>

Sartin: It's also nice to know that the average communities in FATALworld
apparently have no guards, night watchmen, or law enforcement. Really.

As usual, Jason makes claims without support. In fact, an occupation entitled
"Militiamen" destroys his argument. Finally, the gaming world for FATAL remains
unavailable.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Not to mention any bounty hunters or Knights that might
be roaming the streets. Besides, what really gets me is they talk like there is a
rapist occupation. Im not saying there should be. Just that I think they
focus more on rape during the review than the game actually does. Rape is a horrible thing
but it does happen and to ignore that fact is to ignore the worst of humanity. It would be
unbalanced.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
The rapists come from all levels of society, but the majority are
artisans and laborers. Less than 10% of rapes occur by thugs. In 50% of cases, human
rapists are between 18 and 24 years old. The group is composed, on average, of 6
characters. Only 20% of the rapes are committed by 10 or more characters. Half the male
youth participate at least once in gang rape. Sexual violence is an everyday dimension of
community life. There tends to be less in smaller communities such as hamlets and more in
larger communities such as cities. 

So the book said...
</blockquote>

Sartin: It's yet nicer to know that half the males in FATALworld are
rapists or former rapists. Really.

<blockquote>
If identified, rapists are imprisoned for weeks, though no more
than a month. If the victim withdraws the complaint, the rapist is freed immediately.
Imprisonment for rape consists of flogging, unless the rapist is an outsider, in which
case the rapist is banished. When freed from imprisonment, a rapist is not considered
criminal nor considered to be bad. 
</blockquote>

Sartin: It's even more nice to know that rape apparently doesn't
constitute a "serious" offense in FATALworld (given that the first paragraph of
the Justice section suggests "hanging for serious offenses" for those who want
to keep things simple, and the same section lists rape as the ''least severe'' of 45 crimes).
Really.

<blockquote>
The social reaction to rape is rarely favorable to the victim.
The human victims of gang rape are between the ages of 15 and 33. Child rape is rare. The
rape of a child under the age of 14 or 15 is considered a serious crime. The victim loses
her good name in almost all cases, and encounters difficulty in regaining her place in
society and family. If the victim of rape is single, then fewer males desire her as a
wife. If she is married, her husband may abandon her. Priests comprise 20% of the
clientele at private brothels and public baths. Some priests are even members of nightly
gang rapes. The victim of gang rape almost never accuses them of committing sodomy.
</blockquote>

Sartin: It's nicest of all that - ah, hell with it. FATALworld is a piece
of shit with as much connection to reality (historical or otherwise) as urinal cakes have
to real food. Really.

Obviously, Jason never noticed the footnote, nor read the source.

<blockquote>
I soiled my review to put that in there. I thought that you
should see the kind of people that you're dealing with.

</blockquote>

Sartin: I share Darren's annoyance, and then some. I'd love to hear a
reputable expert explain how all this could possibly be historically accurate. I wasn't
kidding when I said rape is listed as the least severe of 45 crimes. Gambling, failing to
pay your rent, vagrancy, and ''being a wife who keeps a fucking disorderly house'' are all
listed as more severe. 

Read _Medieval Prostitution_.

It might be possible
to be more of a waste of skin than Hall is, but it'd take more work than climbing a
mountain. I mean, really. Hall and his idiot fanboys aren't even wannabe rapists. 

They're ''rapists' cheerleaders.'' 

Think about how
pathetic ''that'' is.

As said before, I do not support rape, but
include it in the game for historical accuracy.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I dont know anybody who would support or condone
rape. In fact, if I knew a rapist, I would more than likely beat the hell out of him.

Medieval enlightenment on the women's rights was pretty weak, but
Jesus - it was never this bad, ever. I'm sick to my stomach from having to read this shit;
it's transparently poor scholarship and an even shittier attitude. They express absolutely
no qualms about the victim, or what the aftermath of rape is; no, instead there's more
statistics, so that they can further dehumanize what they hate. As a matter of fact, it's
fairly obvious that the author just grabbed the sentences that supported his warped little
views and pasted them into his .pdf.
Burnout: I find it much easier to dehumanize something like rape
in a game. Makes it much less personal.

Oh, but you'll be glad to know the victim of a gang rape almost
never accuses her attackers of sodomy. I don't know why it's useful information, but it's
in there for some reason. You'd have to think hard, and also be under the influence of a
great many drugs, to figure out why Hall chose to throw that in there. The motherfucker.
I have never 'been with' a mother. Notice that several paragraphs before, Darren quoted
how the victim was considered by others, as well as difficulty in re-adjusting. He is
self-contradictory, but doesn't seem to know it.
</blockquote>

Sartin: It's his idea of subtlety. He can't exactly come out and say
"Huh huh. Rape is cool!" in as many words, but he can present settings where the
worst consequence for it is for pussies. (Forgive the horrible, horrible pun.) 

<blockquote>
And what's worse about this is that the author doesn't see his
own bias; he'll go on and on about how well it's been researched, but all that he's done
is read a few books and declared himself an expert. He confuses Rome and medieval Europe,
he compresses some five hundred years worth of legal argument into a series of gory, cruel
punishments, he ignores legal developments like the Star Chamber or the Magna Carta - and
the result is a bitter stew of repressed misogyny and hatred. We're always kept up to date
on the status of how women can be raped and degraded, but there's never mention of justice
for women - and if the law didn't do anything to fix it, I can guarantee that the old
justice of clan vengeance would have applied at some point. Shit, even in Biblical times
the punishment for rape was ''death'', no questions asked; why is medieval Europe so
different?

I never declared myself an expert on history, but I definitely assert that a goal of
the game is historical accuracy, and I will continue to read books on the subject and
include material. If Darren wants to know why medieval Europe is different from Biblical
times, I suggest he reads about it.
This started out as a funny review, but FATAL's starting to make
me wish that the entire human race would just spontaneously combust and die.
</blockquote>

Sartin: And since I already started the review at that point, I'm pretty
much to where you're looking for things that look like FATAL players and setting them on
fire. I'll end up incinerating a lot of dildos and basement-dwelling greaseshits on
accident, but it'll have to do. 

<blockquote>
In case you're sick of hating the author for his misogyny, you
can start hating him for his obsession with crappy rules. If you want to create a druidic
circle, then you have to use the following formula:
Result = (Ae) +
Ae(N1/2-1)

That quiet chomping noise you're hearing is the noise that my
backbrain makes while it's eating my forebrain.
What the formula there suggests is something like number of
druids versus time of season or something or other; I don't really care. If you have to do
binomial equations in order to figure out how large a circle is, rather than abstracting
it, I'm not interested.<o:p>
Darren's not interested in a detailed RPG. The equation does not consider the season.
Obviously, he probably did not read it.
There's an exhaustive list of occupations, most of which I can't
be bothered to go over; you can probably get the same list by getting a better system,
like D&D 3rd Edition or Rolemaster or [http://home.attbi.com/~b.gleichman/AoH/AoH.htm Age of Heroes] - or WFRP, which
does dark medieval fantasy a thousand yards better than FATAL - and checking the net for
medieval occupations, rather than using FATAL's. (Like you have to be told.) You'll be
pleased to know that whores gain experience for bringing their clients off, just in case
you weren't feeling dirty already.
How else would a whore gain experience?

Burnout: Besides that, I would like to see any game that has as
many PC occupations or classes.
</blockquote>

Sartin: The "occupations" are basically FATAL's character
classes. So along with mages, warriors, and druids, you could be a 5th level dicemaker or
delouser or whore or whatever. Interestingly (never let it be said that I absolutely
refuse to give credit where it's due), characters actually have to do things related to
their occupation to get Advancement Points towards their next level, rather than the
generic XP for adventuring in most games.

<blockquote>
Except of course, that 'occupations' are a much better term than 'classes'.
</blockquote>

It's not very
compellingly done, though. I'm not sure what the point is of being, oh, a bailiff (10 AP
for winning a case! 10 more each month your lord's manor is stocked!) or grocer (1/20 of 1
AP per unit of staple food sold!) when most of the combat professions get AP for
inflicting damage (10 or 20 AP or more for hitting someone once with a big sword!). As
such, all the mundane occupations did not need to be presented as 50,000 or so extra
choices - D&D3's ubiquitous "expert" class was an elegant solution for such
throwaway characters and jobs. And you fans of AD&D1's old "1 gold piece found =
1 XP" rule will love the Bandit, who gets far more AP for stealing/looting money than
many occupations could ever score earning it (that bandits also get damage AP is just
icing on an ass-shaped cake).

I doubt that I would ever role-play a
bailiff or a grocer. However, FATAL allows you to do what you want. If you want to be a
grocer, FATAL enables you. Concerning the bandit, Jason failed to notice that money is
more rare in FATAL than AD&D. It is not easier for a bandit to gain a level, than a
grocer. In fact, since FATAL is so fatal, odds are the bandit won't make it.

Burnout: Actually if
you could find enough money to get any kind of plate suit, then you are very lucky.

Plus, the AP total for
each level doubles each time. Which gets really annoying after a while. Even warriors who
hack and slash all day or bandits who steal millions of silver per victim will take a long
ass time to get the 524,288,000 AP needed for 20th level (but hey. If you can only make it
to 262,000,000, that's almost good enough for 19th level). The Maim Master (FATAL
gamemaster, alcohol help us) can speed things up a lot by opting to award bonus points for
things like accomplishing goals and "group cohesiveness", but if you're
interested in playing this game, those probably aren't your high points. Then again, if
you're running this game, giving a shit probably isn't your high point, either.

More problematic is
that FATAL is very generous when you change occupations. All you have to do is get to at
least 2nd level with the one you have, and you can start over at 1st level with another
one. Which means that when the AP requirement gets too stupid with your combat occupation,
you can just switch to another, similar one and gain 5-10 levels (and all the attendant
benefits) with the same AP it would have taken you to gain 1 level before.

It's always harder to become better at
something the farther you go with it. If characters become a jack-of-all-trades but master
of none, 2nd level in many occupations but never excelling at any particular one, then
this seems to fit a pre-Renaissance era. Again, FATAL seems historically accurate.
----
[[FRRpart2|Go to part 2]] - [[FRRpart4|Go to part 4]]

FRRpart4

2014-07-08T08:06:24Z

Tyciol: creating 'back' button

The fourth (of five) part of the FATAL Review Rebuttal --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]]
----
Also, you only gain
more Skill Points when you go up a level. This was annoying enough in D&D3,
Rolemaster, and countless other games, but at least those were usually sane in what you
get (and how you can spend it).

FATAL, by contrast,
gives most races like 75+1d100 Skill Points per level. That would allow you to probably
get that Urination up to +100 right at 2nd level, but in another money shot for you
sociopathic accountants, each skill can only have d10 points dumped into it per level
(because "skills grow both at different rates for different characters"). And
yes, you have to re-roll it each time. Worse, you can only spend points on skills you've
been using or training...and let's face it: you probably haven't been working on the 8-175
or so different skills it might take to dump all your points. This is naturally another of
those "Did he even PLAY this before he flung it our way?" moments. The entire
thing is way too random to really be considered sane.

The number of points have been considered
when compared to the number of skills. I certainly play the game, and the skill-based
system seems realistic.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Having play-tested FATAL thoroughly and had characters
level-up, I know that with the number of skills its rather easy to dump all the
skill points when leveling.
</blockquote>

(On the upside, at
least everyone of the same race gets the same treatment, SP-wise. In D&D3, it's always
been annoying how, no matter how intelligent they are or how well-educated a background
they might come from, a fighter or wizard can never have more skills than, say, a rogue.
Yeah, I know, it's a game balance thing, but in-game, this has never made sense. I guess
FATAL isn't much better - every human gets the same SP roll, regardless of background or
education - but whatever.)

Because a character comes from a higher
Social Class should not mean that they have more Skill Points. Instead, they will invest
their SP differently.

<blockquote>
The skill list isn't too bad, although there's about twenty more
skills for divination than there should be - the author decided that it'd be a good idea
to split up each individual method of divination, from horse entrails to candle wax to
whatever the hell they came up with. I'm reminded of Rolemaster for some reason, although
I've never seen that product in full.
</blockquote>

Sartin: The skills are too narrow for my tastes (did "Weapon, General
Type", "Weapon, Specific", and "Weapon, Mastery" all have to be
separate skills?), but by this point, the problems with this game run far beyond such a
matter of preference. Naturally, since this is FATAL, Hall doesn't miss too many
opportunities to explain how skills like Intimidation, Wrestling, and Logic can be applied
to rape and sucking.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Actually most of the arguments in the review seem to be
of preference. 
</blockquote>

Detail-wise, skills
work by rolling d100 + (skill's Skill Points) + (average of listed sub-ability modifiers),
and hoping the result is high enough. It's not the worst way to do it (if you can forget
that whole ugly process of how skills increase), but Darren is right to be reminded of
Rolemaster.

<blockquote>
As a matter of fact, the batshit craziness gets turned down a
little for the section on weapons, which goes into encyclopedic detail on various weapons
and items and so forth. And it's perfectly normal, although you can buy a chastity belt if
you happen to want to remind yourself that you're reading FATAL. (I did find out that you
can use aged urine to put out fires, which sounds just crazy enough to be historically
accurate.)
It is.
Burnout: Again, you notice Darren doesnt actually know if
it is or not, but just thinks it sounds crazy enough to be historically accurate. Such is
the manner of this review.
</blockquote>

Sartin: And I learned condoms can be made out of goat bladders and animal
intestines, medieval dildos are made of stone, and the "rhythm method" can
really work! 

About
the rhythm method...they thought it worked.

<blockquote>
Combat. Ah, back to the bullshit craziness.
Okay, check this shit: This is your initiative roll:
(1d100) +/- (Reaction Speed Skill Modifier) - (Delivery Penalty).
In other words, you roll d100, then add on your speed modifier,
then subtract your delivery penalty. Basically, the weapon that you're wielding determines
when you move - so if you're carrying a broadsword, and all you want to do is run away,
you're going to have to sit there while they peg on you until it's your turn to act.
Doesn't matter that you're not ''using'' the broadsword; this is FATAL, not your nancy-pancy
system that makes sense. The instant after we get a description of initiative, we
immediately into rules for coma and death - including a lengthy discussion of the stages
of putrefaction, invaluable for Call of Cthulhu but utterly irrelevant to the chapter at
hand. If you want to role-play a decaying corpse, try ''All Flesh Must Be Eaten''.
If Darren read FATAL, he'd know that Delivery Penalty is only included in Initiative
when you intend to attack, hence the penalty to the delivery of the attack. Was Darren
aware of "we immediately into"? I guess not.
The reason for the inclusion of putrefaction is that while playing other games, it is
common to happen upon a corpse. However, the authors of other games seem incapable or
unwilling to describe it, so that players can estimate the time of death, just in case
they know anyting about putrefaction.

I want to go into detail about the combat system. I'd like to,
but I keep finding myself idly gouging chunks of flesh out of my arm whenever I try to
summarize it. It's not entirely bad; just overcomplicated and mechanical.
Burnout: So, its too complicated for Darren to understand
and interpret. Well, trust me it is easy enough when you get used to the rules that apply
to most combat. Although there are those few instances where you have to look something up
for combat. Ive been game-testing for a few years now and probably one or twice a
session during combat we have to look something up.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Overcomplicated is bad. Even with Age of Heroes (a game that all
but admits that most gamers in this age of "light systems" will hate it),
Gleichman tried to keep the math and die rolls to a minimum. Hall would have done well to
follow that example.

<blockquote>

I specifically wanted a detailed system, and have achieved one.
</blockquote>

That said, FATAL
combat didn't suck as absolutely as I was expecting. For the most part, it's a poor man's
D&D3 stapled to that homebrew system everyone makes when they get drunk and realize
Rolemaster doesn't go far enough. Sure, that's bad, even really bad, but it's not as
sanity-wrackingly horrible as, say, Imagine combat. I guess that would be another one of
those "on the bright side" vs. "you haven't been huffing butane"
observations, though.

Anyway, everyone has a
basic "Current Armor" number you have to roll over to hit them, and the number
can be increased by agility and wearing armor. Current Armor is insanely low unless the
target's armor's got serious nuts - two unarmored, evenly-matched 1st level humans will
hit each other 90% of the time in this game (more, if they're using an actual Weapon
Skill). So unless you just suck beyond all comprehension, you'll probably get to roll your
weapon's damage.

Current Armor (CA) is realistically low. For
example, let's imagine Darren and Jason brawling with each other. Most of the blows will
connect. FATAL suggests 90%. Obviously, armor, weapons, size, and other factors affect CA.
The AD&D idea of 1st level characters missing so much sounds like a bad western.

But don't worry too
much about getting hit all the time. Unlike the D&D3 approach so far that this very
much should not resemble, you can learn the Parry skill, which gives you an opposed roll
against any attack, all round long, without costing you any penalties or actions. Just the
thing for when you don't have Ceremonial Plate Mail or are facing some bastard who kept
rolling a 10 for his Weapon Skill every level up!

Meanwhile, every armor
also has different percentages that it can add or deduct from incoming Pounding, Hacking,
Stabbing, Wind, Burning, Cold, Brawling, or ah fuck it I stopped caring damage. Yeah, that
shouldn't be too annoying after my calculator gets thrown out the window (eh, I'd just use
Stabbing weapons. Almost every armor is all but worthless against them). And if you have
multiple attacks, you have to roll separate initiatives for each one. And Darren already
mentioned the delivery penalty thing (but don't worry about that, either. If your weapon
has more reach than your foe's, you automatically win initiative if you can keep backing
up). And the time listed for bandaging wounds is "not in active combat", but
casting a 10th level spell is "one week". Christ with a shitstick! Can't Hall at
least pretend to think these things out?

<blockquote>
Although casting a 10th level spell should be rare enough anyway, and casting one in
combat is extremely inadvisable, it is listed here because of the other, lower level
spells. Isn't that obvious? Jason is right about bandaging wounds though, and it will be
redone.
Burnout: Also you cant just keep backing up and getting the
first attack as per initiative. Its more like if youre charging someone with a
short sword and the opponent has a pole-axe. Than, obviously all the person with the
pole-axe has to do is lower it and you have to somehow get by that to get an attack. But
that only happens for the first combat round. By then most are in melee range so that
range of weapons is not an issue.
</blockquote>

There are other things
- "smiting" (or, as most English-speakers would say it, "knocking
down") a target when you damage it enough, called shots (hey! I can target someone's
needle if it's "non-living and immobile"!), morale checks, breathing, falling,
charging - but I'm tired now, and it's nothing you haven't seen 10,000 times in other
fantasy games. Oh, well, at least your Life Points don't go up each level. And they're not
so high it would be impossible to cleave an average human in half with one swipe from a
two-handed sword. That may be the first glimpse of realism we've seen all game, and it
only took ''400 pages to find''.

Actually, the falling
chart also reveals that Hall has at least peeked inside a physics book. The acceleration
formula was done correctly (at least for meters; Hall used 3 instead of the more accurate
3.28 when converting to feet), and the figure given for human terminal velocity (114.95
feet per second) is perilously close to the most commonly accepted figure (120 feet per
second). So, wow. Two blatant nods towards realism!

Jason noticed that feet/second was
incorrectly calculated from meters/second; it will be changed. Just when you think that
Jason is coherent, though, he confuses 114.95 feet per second with miles per hour, and
confirms his error with 120 feet per second. Actually, the speed of a falling body toggles
between 110 and 120 mph, because it is not spherical and has continually shifting
friction, etc. Therefore, 115 is the best answer. Just the same, thank you for noticing
about the feet/second calculation.

Enjoy it while it
lasts. Pitch hitting for criticals in FATAL are natural attack rolls of 90+, which give
you a percent chance of scoring a roll on the relevant Crucial Damage table. But we'll get
to that in a minute. Let's just say that Hall is about to put on his +5 Cockring Of
What-The-Fucking, and he's got a solid Sperm Count roll lined up. (Oh, I forgot to mention
FATAL's Sperm Count roll earlier? Silly me. Well, just mentioning it is all that needs to
be said about it anyway.)

<blockquote>
Skip through, skip through: Ah HAH! Here we have the meat of the
situation. The hit charts have been written by somebody who hasn't got the foggiest idea
of how damage actually works. Each hit chart lists a specific location on the body and
what happens when it gets hit - but the problem is that it's broken down by the individual
bone, so that you can break, say, the middle bone in your ring toe, but not sustain soft
tissue damage, bruising, shock or excess bleeding. In addition, if you get hit with a
sword, you're not going to sever only the common plantar digital nerve, but everything
that covers the common plantar digital nerve. It does make for some interesting writing,
though:
I think "Skip through, skip through: Ah HAH!" represents the overall method
of Darren's review. He obviously did not read FATAL, but skimmed it for what he wanted to
see, not what is. As detailed as the Crucial Damage system is, it avoids being
overcomplicated. So, it represents realism better than other games, but I do not consider
it reasonable to have a 900 page book detailing every possible result to every part of the
body from every weapon by every creature. That said, FATAL is better than other RPG's. For
now, I'll just defend Crucial Damage. If it were read by these reviewers, they would have
noticed that it is noted that reason must be applied. If you do Crucial Damage to
someone's hand with a maul, and determine that the damage was done to, say, the middle
finger, then obviously this is only the central point of the blow, and the surrounding
area should also be damaged. Bleeding is covered elsewhere, and crucial LP damage have not
been considered by Darren.

As Jack rounded the corner, he came face to face with the high
priest of the cult, blood from the sacrifice still frothing at his mouth. The two stared
at each other, then struck simultaneously. Jack's sword cleaved through the cultist's
chest, cleaving through the nipple, the xiphoid process - the lowest part of the sternum -
and the shoulder blade. The cultist's blade only caused damage to Jack's appendix and his
adrenal gland, somehow missing everything else in front of and in back of Jack's adrenal
gland and appendix.
See above.
"Wait just a fucking minute - how the hell did our swords
just do that?" said the cultist, idly scratching at his xiphoid process.
"Beats the shit out of me. FATAL, I guess," said Jack,
and severed the cultist's uterus. 
"I don't even have a uterus," protested the cultist.
"Again: FATAL," said Jack.
"Fucking FATAL," muttered the cultist.
While we're on the topic, I should point out that the wound
tables are marked by the same painfully creepy obsession with sexual organs and defecation
as the majority of FATAL. The individual parts of a woman's genitalia can be hit
separately, including the clitoris, and of course the worst thing about it - as this piece
of shit game suggests - is that she won't desire sex for 3d6 months. If you get hit in the
ass, you actually roll to find out how many chunks of shit come out as a result.
Burnout: Painfully creepy obsession with sexual
organs is that what its called when there is about a 3% chance per gender of
hitting a sexual organ. That is, of course, assuming you crucial someone's torso, which
there is a 30% chance of. So there is actually a .9% chance of hitting a sexual organ.
Yes, now thats definitely a painfully creepy obsession.

</blockquote>

Sartin: In all fairness, the Crucial Damage section does have a sentence
that says nonsensical results (like women getting their penises chopped) should be
rerolled. (Oh, yeah, spoil my fun.) But still, it's an easy sentence to miss, and besides
that, how damn hard would it have been to have double entries for these things?

Yes, double-entries is another way of doing it. The inferiority of the method selected by Jason
is obvious when the reader considers that the severity of each location is organized from
1 (not very severe) to 100 (very severe). For example, if you hit both a male's and
female's chest (assuming she has developed breasts) with your fist, then the attack on the
female is more severe. Jason didn't seem to think about this very much.

You know, like
"03: If male, your penis is crushed, blah blah blah intense swelling. If female,
clitoris is crushed, blah blah blah worst of all doesn't want sex".

That would've been
much better than how it has both male and female parts on different lines of the same
chart (like "03: Testicles. Blah blah blah. 04: Clitoris. Blah blah blah") and
adding yet another reroll to a process that's already had four or five die rolls (Weapon
Skill roll, possible Parry roll, damage roll, percent roll to see if you scored Crucial
Damage, hit location roll to see which Crucial Damage chart, actual Crucial Damage chart
roll, reroll because the target's a man with a hacked clit...). But what the hell. Maybe
FATAL's Crucial Damage was originally geared towards hermaphrodites, and Hall forgot to
change it before he threw it into the world of boolean gender.

Burnout: Actually
thats what I call detailed. Even though it is a few die rolls, it is the most
detailed system I have ever seen.

And yes, you've got to
love those "Worst of all, she won't desire sex for *another die roll up your ass*
months" bits. Unless I've missed one, those are on every single female genitalia hit.
Yeah, babe, never mind that you just got a rapier or battle axe stuck in your clit or
ovaries or vulva or vagina or uterus or fallopian tubes (and yes, these are all separate
results on the charts) and now have to make a Health check to not pass out or some shit.
The worst thing about it is that you won't want sex! But hey, since you women will be in
one of those historically accurate worlds where half of all males are rapists or former
rapists anyway, I guess you won't have to make that choice yourself.

Sounds crazy, but it seems like Jason's
getting the idea.

<blockquote>
Burnout: yeah, but he seems to be forgetting again that crucial
damage will most likely kill a person. So the worst, is just worst of all for
what the crucial area hit might be, not to mention that youre probably dead.
</blockquote>

And having to roll
chunks of shit when you get hit in the rectum is a blast, too. Oddly, that's only on the
Hacking Torsos chart - you just can't cause that effect with Stabbing or Pounding weapons,
for some reason, so that's definitely something to keep in mind when you're selecting
weapons. Even more oddly, "anus" occupies another place on the chart, so your
rectum can get hit entirely separately from that...in fact, it's impossible to hit both
rectum and anus with one attack (most of the organs on these charts suffer from this
"ARGH! Even when I'm using a frigging battle axe, why can I only hit one little organ
or part completely separately from everything in front of, beside it, or connected to
it?!" problem, but we're on rectums right now, so cool it). And yes, you can also
trigger the other half of this equation by getting someone's bladder.

See above. Obviously, you can hit the anus
and rectum in one attack.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Its called use logic when determining.

</blockquote>

Interestingly, unlike
the Urination skill, none of these results even half-assedly take into account how much
you've consumed or how much time has passed since your last pissing or crapping. It's nice
to see that FATAL weapons possess such detailed, realism-invoking powers. You could keep
making called shots on someone's rectum and keep them expelling waste all day! 

<blockquote>
I summon the 'nonsensical' rule, where this system, as any other, must be tempered by
reason.
Burnout: I would really hate to be a gamer in these guys
groups. Logic has nothing to do with it. Its not in the rules.

Being as nothing is entirely bad, there's an interesting chart of
crucial fumbles; and since this is entirely too good to be a coincidence, I suspect it to
be ripped wholesale from Rolemaster, although I can't prove anything for sure.
I never knew that Rolemaster has a Crucial Fumbles system that is similar. I thought
Darren said earlier that he's unfamiliar with Rolemaster. Does he contradict himself
again?
Burnout: I believe he does.
</blockquote>

Sartin: My first RPG was Rolemaster, so I'll field this one. Actually, the
Crucial Fumbles don't resemble it that much...in fact, they might be the most sane part of
combat.

There's only one chart
instead of the billion Crucial Damage charts, and unlike everything else, no hard and fast
rules are given. Instead, you'll roll something like "Punished by the gods" or
"Environmental cause", look it up, and examples are given of how you could be
fucked over in that way. This is good, because not only are a lot of stupid rules and
results NOT running rampant as usual, but there's actually room to be creative and have
some fun.

Admittedly, it doesn't
make up for the horrible image I have in my head of a FATALite adventurer tying someone
down, pounding them in the bladder and watching them urinate repeatedly, and screaming
"GODFUCKIT! How do you DO that! I have to wait HALF A FUCKING HOUR! Oooh, speaking of
which...", but you know. Credit where it's due and all that.

<blockquote>
And there's rules for rape. Actual dice rolling to see if you can
rape a woman.
In the Crucial Fumbles? Obviously not. Darren simply repeats himself.
I want to say that something should happen to the authors of this
piece of trash, but I can't think of anything worse than being who they are. I can't.
Excellent, I am proud of who I am.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Oh, I've
suggested tons of things. Getting pissed on and set on fire, getting cancer and
flesh-eating bacteria on the same day, being thrown into a vat full of fire ants, sliding
down a greased razor blade, Deliverance 2 - damn, this is a violent review.

Ah, hell with it. He's
right, people. None of those things would be worse.

<blockquote>
Magic: Oh boy! This ought to be an eye-opening exploration of
magic in Medieval Europe, including a sound magical theory and an impressive grasp of
magic as it was conceived of by the people who lived at the time!
Oh, wait: Instead, it's a mishmash of unrelated information,
discredited horsecrap and random stupidity. For example: On the first page of the chapter
alone, there's a mention of ether as the binding force that holds everything together, the
Void of the five elements. But ether was never a magical concept; it was designed, I
believe, to account for the phenomenon of heat transference; it's been a while since I've
taken History of Chemistry, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was about. You can say that
you're just making something up and calling it ether, like Mage does - but oops, this is
supposed to be the most historically accurate game out there. Odd.

About discredited horsecrap, since magic does not exist, is there anything that could
be said where it is assumed to exist that would not be discredited? Darren should think
before he writes. Ether was considered a magical construct. Concerning the Void, that
originated with Democritus and Leucippus. In the Middle Ages, ether (or the Void) was
considered to be the fifth element -- hence, the pentagram of magic. If the pentagram is
inverted (meaning, the fifth element is on the bottom), then this has been used to
represent Satan and Satanists. If not, then the symbol has represented 'normal' magic. So
there you go, historically accurate, just as I claimed.
Burnout: That is why the five point star always stood for magic.
Oh, but "few who are educated and familiar with ether can
argue against its existence." Yeah, unless you happen to have gone to high school and
actually paid attention in science class, rather than carving images of sexual mutilation
into the desk with the sharp end of a compass.<o:p>
Darren is proud of his high school science class, and I'm only mildly proud of my
graduate science classes. However, they were fairly easy, so I'm not that proud. One
supportive example is my nomination for a University Fellowship due to academic
performance that was consistent and superior. Now, let's go back to Darren who paid
attention in high school!
Anyways. The section on magic spends a lot of time bullshitting
about what magic is and is not, how complicated it all is, what mana is defined is -
utterly inconsequential, totally useless. For example, with my recaps in a weird purple
color ''(For this re-post, in italics--Kwd)'':

Certain compounds or combinations thereof produce specific
magical effects. Spells are good examples of magical effects, though exacting the specific
effects may be difficult to impossible depending on the specific spell and the experience
of the caster. For instance, the power or degree of the effect of many spells increases
predictably with the experience of the caster. Conversely, some spells are favored for
their unpredictable qualities, though usually these are never totally unpredictable, but
limited by certain boundary conditions.
''Spells are predetermined magical effects. Some of them increase in power as the mage gains experience. Others remain unpredictable.''
So that my words are not confused with Darren's, he should have placed mine
(Certain...coniditions) within quotes. Although I value parsimony, Darren's attempt at
summarizing my words is shortsighted, producing problems due to ambiguity. For example,
magical items also produce magical effects, and some FATAL creatures have innate magical
powers. Then again, anyone who reads FATAL with the intent of playing a spellcaster or
using magic should agree.
The duration of magical effects varies considerably, from
split-second to permanent. For example, magical items are items that have been imbued with
mana. The duration of these effects is not fully understood, but it quickly becomes a
complicated topic. Sometimes the experience of the caster has a significant effect upon
duration, but more often it is relative to the spell and its specific application.
''The duration of magical effects varies widely. For some reason, I've decided to talk about magical items and their imbuing with mana. Look, a pretty butterfly. Whee! Sometimes things are one way, and then they're another way. Am I flying? Why does one side of my head feel sticky?''
As most spellcasters become more experienced with magic, their
accuracy and performance tends to improve. Typically, experience of the spellcaster
extends the range and duration, expandsthe area, and increases the potency of the
magicaleffects.
''More experience = better magick. Derpty derp dee derpity do.''
By the way, the "magick" with a 'k' is inappropriate because it is not
historically accurate.  The 'k' was added well after the 1300's. 
I'm just going to close the door and walk away.
Something tells me, he'll be back.

</blockquote>

Sartin: I probably should, too, but the fact that there's still more of
this review proves one of us just can't leave well enough alone. Like most parts of FATAL,
the magic system could be used to torture captives.

First off, the
copyediting for this shit is even worse than Darren's making it sound, as it doesn't
restrain itself simply to the Magic chapter. If you flip back to the Occupations chapter
to read up on the magic-using classes (druid, mage, sorcerer, hierophant), you'll see that
the Hierophant's description was accidentally duplicated in the front of the Druid entry.
Which means you'll be wondering why a section that's supposed to be about druids is
talking so much about priests that have nothing to do with druid culture, but trust me,
it's an error. Of course, when you get to that Druid Circle equation Darren mentioned,
you'll wish it would have stayed on the priest shit.

Jason, as usual, is wrong. Allow me to
demonstrate his oversight, again. Druids and hierophants, for example, are both priests.
Druids function as priests, as a subset of spellcasters. The beginning of the explanation
of Druids in Chap. 7: Occupations is intentional. To conclude with the example for druids,
the next page begins, "Perhaps the most educated of priests and adventurers,
druids...".

To prove Jason's sloppiness as a reviewer,
there are several occupations that are 'classes' or subsets of others. For example,
gladiators and soldiers are classes of fighters. Assassins, pick pockets, and thugs are
classes of thieves. If the reader observes the beginning of the descriptions of these
occupations, they will see the introduction begins with a similar overview and becomes
more specific later. I rest my case.

So you have to be one
of the four aforementioned occupations to do magic, as they're the only ones that get
spells or magic points (like 18+d12 or 38+2d20 or whatever per level, and thank
Testosticles, because I wasn't thinking there was enough totally random crap at level up
already). Mages are the magic-users who learn spells through intense study, sorcerers have
spells through some innate power - oh, you've already seen this before? I'm sorry.
Hierophants are priest-flavored sorcerers, and druids are totally-random-flavored
sorcerers.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Random seems much more accurate to me in gaming because
it allows for a wider range of characters.
</blockquote>

Then there are 10
levels of spells, each costing more spell points to cast than the last. So, do you get
access to higher spell levels automatically as you get to certain levels? No way, that
wouldn't be random enough! There's only a certain percent chance each level that you'll
graduate to the next level of spells. So you might be casting level 2 spells right at 1st
level, or you might keep blowing it every level until the chance finally hits 100%.

<blockquote>
Think about it. If a character automatically gets more powerful spells as they
level-up, this means that regardless of ability, all a spellcaster has to do is continue
to cast spells, and they're guaranteed of magical greatness. The random roll reflects how
much they've actually learned from experience. Therefore, spellcasters will advance at
different paces, even if they share the same experiences. This is a step in the direction
of realism, and supports the premises of FATAL.
</blockquote>

If you don't like
that, just be a druid. They don't have to put up with this "hey, maybe you'll get a
new spell level this time!" shit. Instead, they just get d4-1 totally random spells.
No, wait. If you can't trust your luck, that's even worse.

<blockquote>
I'm sure the reader has guessed, but Jason is wrong again. If he looked at the top of
the page that he referenced (where they get 1d4 - 1 spells), he would have seen that there
is variance for druids as well regarding the acquisition of new spell levels. Experience,
itself, is no guarantee, just as with a reviewer.
</blockquote>

Of course, since we're
still following AD&D/D&D3's lead pretty closely, there have to be schools/spheres
for the spells to fit into. Ooops, I mean disciplines. Druids get access to five of them
(but it doesn't really matter, since they have no control over what spells they get),
mages get all ten, sorcerers get d8 of them (and each is rolled randomly on yet another
table) - hooray! Yet another place where a die roll can make the difference between
playability and total shit! - and hierophants, I think, get whatever the fuck the gods
feel like giving them.

But wait! Here's
something different! Magic is further divided into "ceremonial" and
"chaos" magic. The text goes into confused explanations of the two, but all you
really need to know is that ceremonial magic is for mages only, and isn't very involved
with what you have to do. Chaos magic is for everyone else, and will drive players insane.

<blockquote>
Actually, ceremonial magic is very involved with what mages have to do. I, for one,
wouldn't want to attempt to tackle most of their chants (which are predetermined because
they are, as you can guess, fully accurate, historically). For more information, see the
source on Greek Magical Papyri.
</blockquote>

And I mean the actual
players of the game, not the characters. See, when you cast a chaos spell, there's a 75%
chance that you will need a chant comprised of 3d10 syllables (and yes, there's a long
random syllable chart you roll on for each one). And then there's a d100% chance (yes, you
first have to roll d100 to see what the percent chance is, then roll d100 again to see if
you got under it) of random ingredients being necessary (and remember, kids, FATAL's
random ingredient chart is only slightly less worthy of inane infamy than its cock-clone,
forehead-vagina-summoning random magical fumbles). And then there's a 10% chance per spell
level of a hours- or days-long ritual being necessary.

Sure, what better way to represent chaos
magic than with a higher degree of randomness. As far as casting times, I've read how
rituals could take days or hours, so this seems better suited for higher-level, or more
complicated spells.

And then you smear
bacon grease on your naked crotch and dangle it in front of rabid pit bulls, because that
would obviously be less annoying in the end.

<blockquote>

Has Jason ever played a sorcerer in FATAL? I, as well as others have, and I have never
considered it, or heard it to be, annoying. The random element keeps players on their toes
and provides great entertainment.
Burnout: I have actually tried to tackle a spell caster twice.
The first time I was very unlucky and only rolled one spell. So I actually had to do what
I call Role playing to keep him alive. The other got caught in a bad situation
without the ingredients to cast his spells. Needless to say I tried it anyway, and well,
came to an untimely end at the hand of a random magical effect. All in all, it definitely
keeps you on your toes and prepared for anything. If you want to live.
</blockquote>

There's a bit more to
FATAL magic, of course, but you'll forgive me for ending the discussion here. I'll need an
entire bottle of Valium to overcome the fact that I can't find any rabid pit bulls.

<blockquote>
Spells: Here's more fun for the entire family, provided that your
family has been interbreeding for the last thousand years. It does derive a lot from
historical spells, but they suffer from the fact that most medieval mages were about fifty
cards short of a full deck, as well as flat-out stupid.

Historical accuracy is important. It's better to tell it like it is, then how you'd
like it to be.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Flat-out stupid, or obsessed with genitalia in many of their
ingredients and rituals. Hmmmm...nah.

<blockquote>
Explore the reference yourself. I was pretty surprised when I read the book. Again,
this material is from a translation of Greek Magical Papyri.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
For example, there's a spell listed entitled Against every Wild
Animal, Aquatic Creature and Robbers. In the event that you are simultaneously attacked by
a wild bear, Aquaman and the Hamburglar, this spell will have your back.

I know, this spell's not the most useful. Then again, I doubt that the Ancient Greeks
anticipated its use here. Those poor people believed in magic.
Burnout: Again, I have to bring up the point its better to
be accurate than useful. Being true to the premise.
</blockquote>

Sartin: I know there's
probably not an illustration here, but you'd be surprised.

<blockquote>
Others are simply dull repetitions of the same theme, so you'll
have page after page of "Bestow Age / Backache / Dislocation / Greater Harm / Ingrown
Nail / Tooth Rot / Ulcer / Virus / Decade / Mad Impulse to Review FATAL" spells. You
can also ejaculate a wide variety of substances, ranging from acid to blood to poison; and
while I'm sure that White Wolf could make a remarkably interesting NPC out of that
concept, here it's just an example for Beavis to use the word "ejaculate" in a
role-playing product.

Burnout: Ok, so what hes saying is itd be good for
one RPG but not for this one. Just a bit of a biased opinion.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Yeah, I'm also overjoyed to see the various ejaculation spells are
still around for this iteration of FATAL.

<blockquote>
There is a spell called "Force Fart", of course, but
you probably already knew that.
As a matter of fact, most of the spells are pretty much useless -
for example, compare the utility of a spell like spider climb against a spell like
"Greater Vulnerability to Ethicality", another spell that tries to force stupid
behavior through the game's half-assed alignment system. There's at least twenty spells
each that are repeated ad naseum, but with a new descriptor, like "mass protection
again" or "vulnerability to" or "symbol of"; and the effects are
pretty much like the last time you saw the spell mentioned, but with a new hat. Snore.

</blockquote>

Sartin: The title spell, "Fatal", is interestingly appropriate,
though. See, it's a level 10 spell that will annihilate all life on a planet, and by the
time you get done reading this game, you won't feel like the end of all Earthly life would
be a great loss.

<blockquote>
"Have Her Cadaver": You can rape a corpse, but it'll
feel like a real woman. Why do I have the feeling that this spell was created out of a
real-life need on the part of the author?
Burnout: Actually, this spell was created purely for comic
effect.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Because it's probably true. Obviously, the dead can't toss a drink
in your face or scream "Rape!", making them attractive to the average FATALite.
(I don't know about that. If I were a corpse near a FATALite, I'd probably be making deals
to return from the dead long enough to throw a drink and slap a face or two.)

<blockquote>
There's a dozen love spells, all of which were most likely
designed in real life, all of which do not say anything positive about the social
attraction skills of the magi who created them; I mean, Jesus, these guys must have been
the laughingstock of the medieval world. ("Looks like Barnaby's got another love
potion. Okay, ladies, who wants to yank his pants down and make fun of him this
time?")
Darren should have said the ancient, not medieval, world; the spells are from ancient
Greece.
Burnout: But you notice he doesnt spend any time talking
about the fact there is love in FATAL. Hence the need for love spells.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Yes, those of you who were already familiar with FATAL will be
overjoyed to know that there are still far more spells for controlling/tormenting women
than for men.

<blockquote>
I'm unsure whether this is true overall or not; a count should be done and an itemized
list presented for support. However, if we look at the ceremonial (the historical Greek)
spells, there was obviously a historical bias against females. When seeking historical
accuracy, this bias should continue to be represented in invented material as well.
Therefore, I hope Jason's claim is true for the purposes of historical accuracy.
Burnout: I just checked out percentages. The percent of
historically accurate spells for controlling/tormenting females is 19%, for males
its 5%. As for the invented spells: for females its 17%, for males its
6%. Id say thats fairly close.
The magical items: Fuck you for making me read this. Just about
every one of them is a minor masterpiece of juvenile sexual humor - and, for an extra
kicker, the authors got the difference between a [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brazier brazier] and a
[http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brassiere brassiere] confused, so that
we have braziers of flattening, droopiness, staring and so forth. Idiots.
I stand corrected on the difference between a brazier and brassiere. I thank Darren,
and it will be changed accordingly.
</blockquote>

Sartin: And yes, ladies, wearing a "Brazier" of Droopiness will
penalize your Bodily Attractiveness ''twice'' as much as being pregnant!

<blockquote>
Of course, that's because it's a magical, not natural, effect.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
You know, I felt kinda bad about making fun of the authors up
until this point. I thought, "Well, I am being awfully hard on them; maybe they're
just not terrifically bright, and just maladjusted rather than openly evil."

Burnout: More contradictions -- earlier in the review he said
Fatalists were merely trying to be evil. Now he says Fatalists are openly evil.
</blockquote>

Sartin: For me, the inner conflict was less complicated.

Sartin's Brain (Right Hemisphere): The FATAL guys are the ultimate
paradox. On the one hand, they suck, but on the other, they really, really suck. So you
could say they aren't a paradox at all. Hmmmm...I think this shit may have killed a lot of
my cells.

Sartin's Brain (Left
Hemisphere): Hey, we're reading FATAL! Are you sure we don't need a crack pipe for this?
(The hemispheres in my brain just tried to eat each other. Lucky bastard, that Sartin.)

Even if I somehow felt
bad, magic items are where FATAL amazingly gets even more lame than it already was. 

<blockquote>
Now I want them fed to rats. For this:
35. Jewy Jewbacca, of: Whosoever dons this armor will acquire a
nose twice the size and a manhood half the size. Further, the wearer will become extremely
greedy and fight to the death for one silver piece. Finally, the wearer acquires 2 inches
of hair all over their body, resulting in halving their Facial Charisma and Bodily
Attractiveness. While hairy, the wearer must bathe every 1d6 hours or smell foul. The
armor may be removed at any time and the wearer will return to normal.
Big fucking rats, while we're on the subject.
50. Nigrous Nincompoopery, of: Whosoever dons this armor
experiences a loss of 1d100 points from each sub-ability of Intelligence, Wisdom, and
Charisma. The ass of the wearer will grow by 50% and be abnormally high. If the wearer is
male, then those around him are 80% likely to believe that his manhood has increased,
though it has not. The skin of the wearer becomes cursed and dark as night. Disposition
turns to UI. Temperament becomes phlegmatic. The eyes of the wearer are visible 3 miles
away at night. The wearer will have a body odor for 1d10 feet. On the bright side, the
Physical Fitness of the wearer increases by 10%. The armor may be removed at will.
With the bubonic plague. 
22. Gookums, of: Whosoever dons this armor experiences an
increase of 1d20 points of Intelligence in each sub-ability and is reduced to 80% of
natural Height. The eyelids of the wearer will swell as though hit with a maul, and Vision
is reduced to 25%. Most importantly, the Manhood or Cup Size is reduced to 50%. Strangely,
the ass of the wearer will shrink, drop, and droop.
And I want them fed feet-first.
23. Greasians, of: Whosoever wears this armor acquires hair that
is greasy and dark, they lose half of their Drive subability, are reduced to 90% of
natural Height, are 80% likely to beat their spouse if they have one, and will be
magically unemployed for 1d100 days. However, if the wearer plays drums, the wearer gets a
bonus of 1d100 to their skill check.
Then I want the rats fed to some other rats. 
</blockquote>

Sartin: See, told you it was racist. You have to wonder what would happen
if someone who was already black put on - oh, wait, forgot! There are no dark-skinned
humans in FATAL. 

<blockquote>
Personally, I'm not racist, though this may be going too far with humor. As far as no
dark-skinned humans in FATAL, that was covered above, when I mentioned extracting or
minimizing influences originating outside of Europe.

Burnout: I personally dont think its going too far
with humor. I just think it should be spread to a broader range, as to not leave anyone
out. Say Posers, of: will think they have dark skin and act accordingly. Honkey, of:
Cant dance, has no ass, cant jump, will be 3d20% likely to pick up a stringed
instrument. You know, and so on.
</blockquote>

The most pathetic
thing is that Hall probably isn't even actually racist. He's just doing this because he
needs more attention.

<blockquote>
For the record, I enjoy controversial humor.
</blockquote>

Meanwhile, he should
have added one more armor suffix.

Extreme Suckocity, of: Whosoever wears this armor will suffer a decrease
in their Common Sense to 1, believe their Intelligence (in all sub-abilities) is 100
points higher than it actually is, gain an extreme fascination with (though poor
understanding of) rape, waste expulsion, and genitalia, and be preternaturally unable to
use any social skill.

Actually, I may consider adding an armor that makes fun of my own race, or replacing this little
section. Who knows? Time will tell.

<blockquote>
This entire chapter, incidentally, will make wonderful, wonderful
evidence during the inevitable trial.
This entire review is excellent evidence for a trial, all right.

Most of it is just a series of adjectives ripped off from
AD&D, without a tenth of the use. Even a hundredth of the use. For example:
39. Immorality, of: Whosoever wields this weapon causes a loss of
1d20 points of morality regarding the disposition of the victim upon a successful attack.
Yeah. That's useful. A sword that makes you think the other
person is immoral when you hit them. Good forward planning on the part of the authors,
there.
If the sword "causes the loss of 1d20 points of morality regarding the disposition
of the victim upon a successful attack" by the wielder, then the weapon does not
cause the wielder to merely "think" the foe is more immoral, but actually causes
them to 'be' more immoral. Darren's interpretation demonstrates his poor reading
comprehension.
</blockquote>
Sartin: It's truly hard to decide, but my favorite are the "Household
Items, Seeds". 

01-25 Demonseed: If a character swallows a demonseed, they will instantly
become magically pregnant. An anakim will be born in 1d100 days. Upon birth, the bearer
dies. 

26-50 Rapeseed of
Raping: If a character swallows this seed, they will attempt to rape the next member of
the opposite sex in sight regardless of age.

51-75 Seed of Doubt:
Whosoever plants a seed of doubt will grow a dark plant unknown to nature. The plant will
grow regardless of the quality of the soil. The plant will grow to be 1d10 feet tall. The
plant will grow to maturity in 1d100 days and will live for 1d1000 days, even without
water. When the plant is mature, it will lower the PP of humans within 1d1000 feet by 10
PP for each foot of the plant. Somehow, those humans who lose all PP will believe they are
slaves. A plant of doubt will produce a number of seeds of doubt equal to the number of
feet of its height squared.

75-100 Seed of Hate:
If this seed is planted in front of a home of a druid, the seed will grow into a tree of
(100 + 1d100) feet in height and 5d20 feet in circumference. This tree will grow to full
height in 3d6 days. This tree will grow regardless of moisture, climate, or light. This
tree cannot be cut or burned down. The leaves will be black and the veins are red. This
magical tree will cause all creatures, insects included, within 2d100 miles to hate the
druid. The only way to kill a tree that resulted from this seed is for the druid to anally
copulate with a specific type of living forest creature. The druid must ejaculate, thereby
sowing a seed of love. The MM must roll percentile dice and consult the table below:

(snip!) 

Oftentimes, the
druid begins an anal frenzy attempting to thwart the tree. There is a 10% chance
thereafter that the druid develops a bestiality fetish.

Great additions to any household!

Burnout: Sorry I couldnt comment on the past few lines, I was
laughing.

Actually, maybe my
favorite is this charming item:

1-50 Jar of Jacking Off: Whenever a male opens this jar, they must pass a
Drive sub-ability check at TH 80 or be compelled to force their fuckstick into the jar.
Once inside, the jar will inexplicably grip it firmly and jerk it to completion, even
against the will of the opener. Upon completion, the cummer must roll percentile dice. If
the results are 01-10, then the jar becomes pregnant. If the jar is pregnant, it will not
allow itself to be opened, but will care for the fetus within, which will be heard
screaming by others within 1d100 feet day and night. After 9 months of fetal torture, the
child will be born and the jar will break. 

If the jar is broken
during its pregnancy, then the dying and twitching fetus will explode after 1d6 rounds of
twitching. The explosion will cause 1d4 Life Points of sonic damage to all within 1d4
miles. Baby parts are inexplicably everywhere.

When born, the baby
will be Unethical Immoral, will serve the father loyally, will obsessively collect jars,
and seem to be male but have no penis, but oversized testicles, which can never ejaculate.
Therefore, this child will be forever frustrated. Any child of a jar will insist that
others call them Chucky.

Man! How could I
possibly say no? (Just watch. When the ass-rammers at FATAL Games get their "FATAL
comments" section back up, that's so going to be quoted out of context.)

Obviously, what the reader reads is all in a
perfectly unchanged context, and a link to the source is supplied in case of doubt.

But wait. We haven't
had enough misogyny yet! 

01-09 Chastity Belt of Cursed Impregnation: This cursed chastity belt will
immediately and magically impregnate any woman who wears it. Worse, in a world where male
children are desired, the child will be female.

Yeah, it sounds cold,
but again, I remind you that half of all males in FATALworld are rapists, so you wouldn't
want to bring a female into it, either.

I'm sure most people know that.
Historically, most couples valued male children, and didn't value females. As sources in
FATAL will show, many more female than male children were sold as slaves, abandoned,
killed, etc.
----
[[FRRpart3|Go to part 3]] - [[FRRpart5|Go to part 5]]

FRRpart5

2014-07-08T08:05:44Z

Tyciol: giving a 'back' button in case anyone is linked here directly

The fifth and final part of the FATAL Review Rebuttal --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]]
----
There's also pages and
pages of random treasure charts, while we're on this subject. You know, up to now, I've
been forgetting to bash on how, if you strip away FATAL's fixation with genitalia and
rape, all you're left with someone's painful AD&D clone. Really, these even have the
deal where you first roll to see what row of the hoard chart you're on, and then the row
has you roll percentages for each type of coin / gem / object / whatever to see if a
random number of them appear. Except that the number of coins / gems / whatever that can
appear goes up when you roll a "higher" row, but the chance of them appearing
often goes down. Or sometimes it goes up for one row, then back down. There's not a lot of
rhyme or reason to it.

The tables are
well-reasoned. Originally, it was planned so that each type of treasure has a higher
chance under a different category. It's been changed, and the new system is better.

Look, never mind. Just
hope that you never roll 100 for the row of any hoard or dead body. That way, there will
never be more than a 6% chance of any lame ass magic items appearing, and thus you won't
end up fighting your fellow adventurers over a Cursed Dildo of Adhesion or a Condom of
Continuity and then wondering where your goddamn life went so wrong.

<blockquote>
(The weird thing about the Jar of Jacking Off is that it would
make an interesting magic item for Unknown Armies, provided that you filed off all of the
stupidity. Actually, you'd probably wind up with a little nub of a good idea after you
took all of the stupidity off, but it'd at least be better than using it as listed.)
I also figured out why the book is so long even though the
authors are so maladjusted as to make extended concentration impossible: It's largely
because they're simply copying and pasting the same fifteen entries, then adjusting them
just enough to apply to that section; and if they run out of inspiration, which they
inevitably do, it's off to the DMG for more.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Amazingly, the FATALites missed copying their most obvious piece
of inspiration: Gygax's courtesan chart! 

I'm well aware of it. FATAL already makes it possible to create complex characters in a few
minutes with the FATAL Character Generator.

<blockquote>
Conducting the game: It's often hilarious to look at FATAL and
realize that the authors actually thought that they were making a historically accurate
medieval RPG. The game suggests that anything that lends a medieval flavor to the game
will lend flavor to the game as a whole - braziers, tapestries, mead, tankards. I would
suggest that the best way to GM FATAL is to drag the players out into the middle of a
swamp and have them dig as deep a grave as they can; meanwhile, the GM should string
police flashers so that they can be visibly seen through the foliage, and should look
around wildly and whimper underneath his breath.
</blockquote>

Sartin: I would suggest the best way to run it is to play chicken on a
highway. Sure, that's not playing it by the actual rules, but if you honestly want to play
this game, it's probably for the best. 

<blockquote>
Whenever possible, the material and rules for this game have a
firm historical or mythological basis. For instance, a quote from Homers Oddysey
reveals the prevalence of Violence and sexual content in much classical mythology,
I sacked the city, killed the men, but as for the wives and plunder, that rich
haul we dragged away from the place -- we shared it round

What these morons know about The Odyssey could just about fit
into the Grand Canyon and still have room left over to squeeze in the entire universe.
What they know about historical accuracy could fit into the space left over from the last
example ten times over. (Plenty of emphasis on the raping and killing - but no mention of
Penelope's legendary faithfulness, or the Siren's enslavement of Ulysses, or the terms of
hospitality offered to wandering bands of men. There's material for yards in the Odyssey,
as long as you don't use it for a wank sock.)
What an interesting source Darren chose for debate, Homer's Oddysey. He may also want
to consider the justified murder of all the "whores" (as they're referenced
several times) in Penelope's house, because they are sluts. For example, in Book 22:
Slaughter in the Hall, Oddyseus the hero orders Telemachus to "march the women out of
the great hall -- between the roundhouse and the courtyard's strong stockade -- and hack
them with your swords, slash out all their lives". So, they "marched the women
out of the great hall...and stern Telemachus gave the men their orders: 'No clean death
for the likes of them, by god! Not from me -- they showered abuse on my head, my mother's
too! You sluts -- the suitors' whores!
"With that, taking a cable used on a dark-prowed ship he coiled it over the
roundhouse, lashed it fast to a tall column, hoisting it up so high no toes could touch
the ground. Then, as doves or thrushes beating their spread wings against some snare
rigged up in thickets...so the women's heads were trapped in a line, nooses yanking their
necks up, one by one so all might die a pitiful, ghastly death...they kicked up heels for
a little -- not for long.
"Melanthius? They hauled him out through the doorway, into the court, lopped his
nose and ears with a ruthless knife, tore his genitals out for the dogs to eat raw and in
manic fury hacked off hands and feet."

Want to see what a stat block in FATAL looks like, incidentally?
Mordacicus Stats: Height = 62, Weight = 211 lbs., Age
= 22, Sexuality = Hetero, Eyes = Brown, Hair Color = Brunette, Hair Thickness = Thick,
Hair Length = middle of the back, Hair Type = wavy, Most Attractive Feature = chest, Most
Repulsive Feature = hands, level 3 mercenary, Skin Color = tan, Physical Fitness = 111,
Strength = 182, Bodily Attractiveness = 123, Health = 131, Facial = 98, Vocal = 148,
Kinetic = 111, Rhetorical = 86, Hand-Eye = 152, Agility = 124, Reaction Speed = 136,
Enunciation = 92, Language = 97, Math = 107, Analytic = 108, Spatial = 112, Drive = 103,
Intuition = 109, Common Sense = 73, Reflection = 84, LP = 32, CA = 33, PP = 07,
Disposition = NI, Temperament = CM, Languages = Sapian, Equipment = Goring Zweihander + 6,
dagger, chainmaille hauberk, (4-in-1), and 544 s.p.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Darren! Careful where you point that thing! 

<blockquote>
AAAAGGHCK! Fuck, that hurts the eyes. No game out there really
has a lovely stat block - d20 really isn't that great - but Jesus, that does not look
good.

Burnout: Stat blocks suck, thats why you should print out a
character sheet, found in Appendix 1.
The sample adventure actually looks like it's not going to suck,
right up until it shows up with a maiden called - of course - Cuntrina. You can always
count on the guys who wrote FATAL to fuck it up, whether it's writing an adventure or
walking upright. For extra fun, the primary villain of the piece is stinking drunk and
singing what I imagine to be either a parody of an existing song or an original piece by
the authors; either way, you'd get better musical results by jabbing pencils into your
eyes and headbutting a wall.
</blockquote>

Sartin: I have no idea why almost everyone's Most Repulsive Feature in
this adventure is either their feet or hands, but it sticks out. And it's neat that even a
sodomizing, soul-stealing sorcerer can be considered "Neutral Moral" in this
setting.

Jason demonstrates ineptitude again! If he referred to the stat block above, he would see that
Mordacicus is NI...Neutral Immoral.

But yeah, the sample
adventure was underwhelming. Given the way FATAL has been foaming at the mouth up to this
point, I was expecting something even more blatant and stupid. You know, like the
adventure is nuns parading through the players' village, and the players are honor-bound
to rape them or force-feed them tons of Rapeseeds of Raping or something.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Thats because, as stated many times before, rape
is not part of most games. Its simply put here for completeness.

There's a list of natural substances, all of which were likely
cribbed from online sources - as a matter of fact, they're directly taken from
[http://botanicals.com botanicals.com], as cited in the bibliography.
Nothing worth seeing here.

Quite the contrary, if you enjoy information on herbs and poisons, the chapter is an
excellent and accurate read.
The warfare section: If you want to see medieval warfare done
right, then you want to look at the way that the original L5R did battles; it was only
important to the characters in terms of how many wounds they took, and if they got to
fight a duel or if they could do something interesting. [http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=373 Justin Bacon]'s
also writing his own supplement on mass combat for the d20 system, which promises to be
very interesting indeed.)
In FATAL, you have to add up the number of people on both sides,
multiply them by each of their life points, then divide each unit by the size of the
entire army, then subtract that from one, then square that result then the razor goes
across the wrists and the blood comes out and there's a figure beckoning me to a wonderful
world where there is no FATAL.
Notice that Darren fails to mention that there are two methods for battle, and that the
first one, the one he criticizes, is based on a scholarly study that predicts the outcome
of battles. I strongly recommend reading the article.
</blockquote>

Sartin: By the way, did you know that large cities have a higher Current
Armor than individuals if you're using siege weapons? Cause they're harder to hit and
everything.

Because they have walls, which are usually the target.

The Warfare chapter
also contains half-assed discussions of tactics, naval and arial combat, and military
training, but by now we've covered 18 chapters and 770 pages of this crap. We've stopped
caring, right?

<blockquote>
Jason probably meant 'aerial', instead of the font, "arial." But, since his
ability has been called into question so many times and for good reason, the reader must
wonder.

You'll be happy to know that when the winning army plunders the
local town, "Maybe more than anything, warriors look forward to raping the local
women."
I believe this reference came from either _Travel in the Ancient World_ or _The Art of
War in the Middle Ages_.
You'd have to actually take a step down from bacteria in order to
meet these people's level.
</blockquote>

Sartin: My favorite expression for this is "They'd have to look up to
see a maggot in hell", but both work! 

<blockquote>
FATAL's character sheet is ten pages long.
Obviously, a "sheet" cannot be ten pages long. Darren should have said
Character Sheets, like the title of the appendix.
Burnout: Besides even though the character sheets are 10 pages
long. That just makes it easier to go through the game without looking through the book.
Its done that way for ease.
</blockquote>

Sartin: And, in perhaps the most subtle testament to this game's nature
yet, the "Sexual Characteristics" section comes before the "Special
Abilities" and "Advancement Points" blanks.

Note that the sexual material is buried in the bottom of the 2nd page of the character sheets.

<blockquote>
The spell miscast tables. Here's the real notoriety for FATAL,
the point when the game ceases to be simply stupid and offensive and vicious and brutal
and stupid and juvenile.
Here, in fact, is where stupid and vicious and offensive and
juvenile and brutal and stupid join together like a multiple-robot Transformer and destroy
anything in the universe that is even close to being good or nice or true or good.
Burnout: Stupid twice and good twice. Short term memory loss?
You can pick any entry at random and feel your brain fry in its
own juice, so I won't bother to reprint anything. I will point out that it cemented
FATAL's reputation as the worst role-playing game ever made; I will point out that
printing page after page of "Caster worships and entire body is branded with the
symbol of Deity X" is not even close to actual work, though.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Darren spares you, gentle reader, but I am not so merciful.
Everyone already knows about the cock clones, gay ogres appearing to butt-fuck like
there's no tomorrow, and vagina foreheads, so let's check out some of the other 1,996
results!

0090 Next time caster defecates, their intestines fall out of their ass,
though still loosely attached. 
0091 An illusory disembodied 3d10 long schlong appears, trying to fuck whoever has
the most LP in 500. 
0092 Illusion appears of a male human pulling his pants down, cutting off his scrotum, and
offering some...

Right.

0119 Caster believes they are a housecat for 24 hours. 
0120 Caster does cartwheels for 4 rounds. 
0121 Caster is unbelievably happy and does not know why.

Right.

0152 Caster becomes a serial rapist. 
0153 Caster becomes narcissistic. 
0154 Caster believes they must repair the nearest carriage.

Right. 

0195 Caster now orgasms in the presence of candles. 
0196 Caster develops obsessive-compulsive washing behavior. 
0197 Caster now wants to kill everything wearing the color blue. 
0198 Caster now only wants to have sex with old characters. 
0199 Caster now only wants to have sex with pre-teens. 
0200 Caster tries to fist-fuck the next sleeping female they see, no matter when or where. 
0201 Caster now prefers mating with farm animals, and is now a zoophiliac. 
0202 Caster develops a fetish to drink their own sperm once at each meal. 
0203 The next female with Charisma over 120 orgasms upon seeing the caster. 
0204 Caster strokes or fingers themselves, as is appropriate to their gender, once in each
direction in public. 
0205 Caster only wants to have sex, especially oral, with women on their rag. 
0206 Casters buttocks itch for the next entire day. Suffer - 10 initiative. 

Goddammit! Where did those rabid pit bulls go? 

0257 Nutsack of caster swells to 10d1000 in volume for 3d3 days. 

0258 Next time caster poops, the turd comes alive, attacks caster: +80 TH, for 1 LP B dmg,
CA 20, & 3 LP. 
0259 Target turns into a fat, dark, female. MM decides appropriate penalties.

You know, I think we've finally, finally reached the point where nothing I
can add could possibly make this game look more juvenile or stupid or pointless than it
already is. 

Oh, wait:

0225 Casters asshole dilates to 9 inches in circumference every time
they smell rain.

Hooray! Now he might finally be able to LITERALLY get his head up there.
No, wait, that's circumference, not diameter. Well, okay, at least a few more fists, then.


0251 Scratch n Sniff magical symbol of a smelly vagina appears on
the forehead of each party member. 
0252 Casters attack TH increases by 2d10 permanently. 
0253 Eyeball appears on the casters cockhead. It can determine truth/falsity of 1
statement once per day.

FATALite: "Repeat that before the Cock-Eye of Truth, wretch! And
hurry, I've got to take it off to make that Urination roll!" 

Then this shit comes
on for several pages (and hundreds of entries):

0332 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abaddon 
0333 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abattur 
0334 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abigor 
0335 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abraxas 
0336 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abu 
0337 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Abudantia 
0338 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Adad 
0339 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Adiririon 
0340 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Adramalech 
0341 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Aegir 
0342 Caster worships and entire body is branded with the symbol of Aesculapius

<blockquote>
Just so the reader knows, initially there was going to be a massive list of gods in the
next book, and every one of them historically accurate. Plans have changed, and so will
this part of this appendix sometime soon.
</blockquote>

You know, a lot of
these results are a lot funnier when you remember that magic items can trigger these
rolls, and "caster" refers to the item in those cases.

0883 Every time a spell is cast, the caster burps at 125 decibels. 
0884 Every time a spell is cast, the caster bleeds from their ass. 
0885 Every time a spell is cast, the caster punches themselves in the cock n
balls/gash for 2 LP of damage. 
0886 Every time a spell is cast, the casters eyes bug-out as if in severe
constipation. 
0887 Every time a spell is cast, the caster holds their right hand to their chest,
attempts to bite their ear. 
0888 Every time a spell is cast, the caster jumps for joy. 
0889 Every time a spell is cast, the caster flips off the target. 
0890 Every time a spell is cast, the caster flicks their nutsack/labia 3 times. 
0891 Every time a spell is cast, the caster pukes bile.

I don't know what I did - probably coining the line "Don't worry, I
brought enough balls for everyone!", or all those times I tried to set strangers on
fire for asking me what time it was - but I'm really damn sorry. 

As though it all isn't
enough, we also have about a hundred results where Hall seems to rip off metal lyrics:

0949 Every time a spell is cast, the caster says I must die while
suffering! 
0950 Every time a spell is cast, the caster says I want to be one with the
dead! 
0951 Every time a spell is cast, the caster says Blood shall flow because killing is
all we know!

Yeah! Keep rocking, dudes! 

<blockquote>
Rock is weak.
</blockquote>

0991 Every time a spell is cast, the caster says I must achieve my
revenge through hatred! 
0992 Every time a spell is cast, the caster says Suffer to survive, instinct I
despise! 
0993 Every time a spell is cast, must chant Youre as ugly as the poo I left in
your mamas mouth!

There's hope, though. Maybe someday, someone will roll this result: 

1351 Accidentally casts Fatal.

I've had enough, but
of course, we just can't leave without seeing these:

0995 Caster grows a piece of fruit from their dickhole/cuntpipe that
ripens in 10 days. If eaten, +1 to Drive. 
0996 Caster grows a piece of fruit from their dickhole/cuntpipe that ripens in 10 days. If
eaten, -1 to Drive. 
0997 Caster grows a piece of fruit from their dickhole/cuntpipe that ripens every 10 days.
If eaten, +1 CA. 
0998 Caster grows a piece of fruit from their dickhole/cuntpipe that ripens every 10 days.
If eaten, -1 CA. 
0999 Caster and target begin copulating instantly for 2d10 rounds. Target enjoys it
thoroughly. 
1000 Caster and target begin copulating instantly for 2d10 rounds. Target becomes a loyal
henchman. 
1001 Caster and target begin copulating instantly for 2d10 rounds. Target bites
casters cock, 2d4 dmg. 
1002 Caster and target begin copulating instantly for 2d10 rounds. Target laughs like
madman and runs off.

We generated this list by passing it to many people for input, and as you can see, the ideas
were downright humorous.

Burnout: Again I was laughing way too hard to respond up until now.
(Wiping the tears of laughter from my eyes.) But I can only say almost all of the 2000
were meant to be funny. Until the point we got tired of being funny and just handed it
over to Byron to fill in the rest. And as he stated, he set it online for people. By the
way, the dickhole/cuntpipe fruit was my idea. YOU'RE WELCOME.

After literally the
40th page of this shit, we get another appendix with 470 random phobias ("470-600
Reroll"!), although I doubt a phobia of rape is really called
"virginitiphobia", and naturally, there are three different phobias for an erect
penis (although, to be fair, only Ithyphallophobia adds having one to a general phobia of
them). Fear of men appears three times, too. Fear of beautiful women appears twice. Fear
of wind is in there a couple times. Fear of venereal disease only appears once, but
rolling that would be a lucky break, for reasons I've already mentioned.

There's a reference for the phobias.

And then there's a
thousand random magical ingredients - those of you who were wondering how Hall could've
possibly fit in "frozen grass" or "urine from a castrated male" when
there were only 1,999 entries on the random magical effect chart can die in peace.

The best part is that
at the end, we finally see the one thing that could make this whole mind-numbing, idiotic,
alcohol-churning, change-your-car's-battery-underwater-pleasant experience complete: BYRON
HALL'S BIO AND PICTURE! Yes, not since World of Synnibarr has a RPG been so graced. Of
course, while McCracken's bio was whimsically insane and over the top (and thus lovably
classic), Hall's is short and just mentions how he likes to collect degrees when he's not
enjoying shred guitar, ancient and medieval literature and history, philosophy, blah blah
blah yeah right.
That's right.
And yes, any of you
furries in the audience can go ahead and look to see if he's really the sort who would
enjoy a bunny suit.
<blockquote>
So, we have a name for our pain: Byron Hall, who claims to have
an M.A.
Mr. Hall, I can tell when somebody has an M.A, and believe me,
you don't. There are certain hints, like, well, the entirety of FATAL
Darren, who only refers to his high school experience, can tell? Actually, beyond my
M.A., I've done my pre-doctoral work as well, and have enough grad. credits for two of
those easy, little degrees.
I finished this review at 3:33 in the morning. Maybe, in the
morning, they'll [http://www.unknown-armies.com/ find me ascended to the Invisible Clergy] as the Martyr Critic. I hope so. Jason can be my
Godwalker.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Hey, great! Maybe my fourth avatar channel for that will be
"Accidentally Unleash Horrendous Doom That Swallows The World"...uh, shit. Ah,
well. Between [http://us.imdb.com/Title?0060753 Red Zone Cuba] and FATAL, I
think we have solid evidence that humanity wasn't going to amount to much anyway.

<blockquote>
And a quick note: Just in case that you're thinking that you
should download this game to find out just how bad it is: Why reward him with your
precious eyeball time? Right now, at RPGnow.com, they've got
[http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=774 Ars Magica] and the
[http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=796 Deadlands Players Guide]
for free. And if you want to see a magically impressive, mythically
accurate, innovative, well-written, well-illustrated book that makes FATAL look like the
pathetic wankjob that it is, go and download Ars Magica ''right this fucking second.''
If they're refering to the game that has no items for sale, prices, etc., it seems a
half-conceived waste. If you want a game that is true to its premises (detailed,
difficult, historically/mythically accurate), you want FATAL.
You still here? Go and download it, for Christ's sake.
Please, don't do anything for his sake.
</blockquote>

Sartin: Yeah, Ars
Magica digs up FATAL's mother's grave and does bad things to her corpse. It would be worth
getting even if you'd have to pay for it, and having it available for free is just plain
awesome.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Actually I give Ars Magica its credit for coming up with
a good magic system. That is the only thing that game has to offer though. 
</blockquote>

While we're on the
subject of RPGs that kick FATAL's ass at its own game, Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play is also
very good if you want gritty, medieval-flavored gaming. And if you want difficult, lethal,
detail-heavy fantasy combat, Rolemaster and Age of Heroes are far more sane and realistic.
(Hell, Age of Heroes is free, too, and Rolemaster was the game that put critical hit
charts on the map.) And if, for some reason, you have to have an ultraviolent, low brow,
testosterone-coated, phallic-imagery-laden RPG, then for the love of God please get SenZar
instead - sure, a 1st level SenZar character could easily survive a fall off a 100 foot
cliff, but that still doesn't make it less realistic than FATAL, and its rules are a
motherfuck of a lot more fun.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Again credit where it is due, Warhammer Fantasy
Role-Play was fun many years ago but it got old fast.
</blockquote>

And none of those games to my knowledge have
scholarship and footnotes to sources. They expect you to believe their material for no
good reason. If they do have good reason, it's buried in sources that must be sifted
through, instead of called into the open on the spot. As far as fun, I challenge that
FATAL is the most fun...of course!

<blockquote>
So, we're finished with the main bulk of the game itself. Just
for the sake of beating it further to death, let's check some of the bullshit excuses on
the FATAL webpage that explains why it isn't sexist. I'll provide commentary.
</blockquote>

Sartin: For once, we'll let Darren cover this shit without interruption.
The demonic contract he made me sign only covers the game itself, after all.

<blockquote>
Is FATAL Misogynist?
No.  The focus of this game is not intended to foster hatred
toward females.  However, the game attempts to portray females as is accurate in
history.
There should be quotes around the above.
Except, as it's been pointed out, the game's basis in historical
accuracy is about as firm and solid as a tubful of gelatin in an ultrasonic mixer. As a
matter of fact, what's especially vexing is that the nimrod who wrote this has figured out
that if you throw up a thick enough screen of bullshit, then people will get flummoxed and
walk away.

Actually, I'm not the one relying on cheap techniques like emotion and rhetoric. I will
always address real arguments openly and fairly.
[http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-duc1.htm Not this little black duck]. I
would say that FATAL's view of history is one-sided, but that suggests that they actually
have enough information to present a side; in fact, all they have is a fragment, and
nothing more. Their view of females in history is missing huge swathes of information, and
there's not a single page that passes where a woman or the female sex appears and isn't
referred to by a derogatory slur.
Not one? Courtly Love -- there, Darren loses.
Burnout: Actually I would say the review has been fairly
one-sided and biased to the extreme.
  As such, it is possible that females encountered in the
game will be subjected to many forms of inequality and abuse.  Similarly, inequality
may appear if a player creates a female character.
Quotes above, again, are needed.
In other words, forget about playing Boadicea, Queen Elizabeth,
Joan of Arc, any of the innumerable Christian female saints, females disguised as knights,
clever female thieves - in this shithead's world, it's gang rape ahoy for anybody who
dares shun the land of penis. Fucking moron.
I believe the key word here is "Christian." Once removed, FATAL is correct as
can be.
Burnout: Actually though female knights and thieves are in FATAL.
Its just stated that according to history they are uncommon.
It is the opinion of the author that mysogyny is a misapplication
of over-generalizations that result from mindlessness or an absence of critical reasoning.
Examples may be found in literature concerning at least two social phenomena:
mindlessness and pluralistic ignorance.
"I'm throwing a lot of big words at you! Go away! Go away!
May the power of bullshit repel thee!"
Quite the opposite, I don't think any of the above words are magniloquent (big).
Instead, I'm directing anyone who is concerned to sources that support my statement. This
is how competent argumentation is done. Nevermind, again, that the quotes aren't where
they should be, and are where they shouldn't.

Instances abound of both male and female degradation.  If
you have stumbled across some information in the game and it seems mysogynistic, please
review more of the game.  A larger, more representative, and objective review of
  F.A.T.A.L. will reveal that it is not mysogynistic.  Assuredly, here at Fatal
Games, we love females and think constantly about them.

Dear Mr. Hall:
You are a god-damned
liar of the blackest variety.
-Darren MacLennan
Dear reader:
After reading Darren's arguments and mine, who
do you deem the liar?
-Byron Hall

Or this chestnut:
Is FATAL sexist?
With the above definition in mind, F.A.T.A.L. is most certainly
not sexist.  First, it may be observed that gender-neutral pronouns are used
throughout, unless specificity is necessary.
Cuntrina. Slut. Trollop. Slovenly slut. Bitch who refused to
sleep with you. Whore. Prostitute. Cunt-pipe. Worthless woman. Harlot. And for every
single-word epithet, there's a lengthier description of a woman who's smelly, or pregnant,
or God only knows what else your sick mind can come up with.
It's amazing how many terms there are in English for loose women, and lack thereof for
men. And it's my fault for representing the English language, which is a result of
history?
If you were a smarter man, Mr. Hall, then you wouldn't have put
all of those words into FATAL and then claimed, for everybody to see, that FATAL wasn't
sexist. But you chose to do so.
What Darren fails to see is that most of those instances, the words were chosen by
historical sources, and inserted appropriately. The exception is cunt-pipe, but that
conjunction is not my own, and was inserted by someone else who wanted to make a
contribution to a game.
All it takes to knock it over it is one read through the rules.
So we can add stupidity to your list of sins as well.
There's an extra 'it' in there. So, the reader can decide where stupidity should be
considered.

Second, it is mentioned that the highest intelligence on record
is that of a female, not a male.  

So fuck what?
So Darren refuses to see anything objectively.
Third, while instances of material exist in the game which may be
cited in which females are degraded, equally numerous instances also exist for the
degradation of males. 
Complete and total bullshit. If there's one, I'd be delighted if
somebody could come up with it. 
Sure, look at the anakim traits chart, as demonstrated much earlier. This is only one
instance of many. Darren, however, purposely overlooks anything that contradicts his
mindless accusations.
Maybe he believes it. Maybe, for him, if you say it, then it's
so. I can trust that anybody reading this review will know the difference.

Now that I've defended it, I'm sure they will.
So, in summary: FATAL is the worst role-playing game ever made. 
So, in summary: FATAL is the best role-playing game ever made.
Hands down. 
The End. 
We owe apologies to both Raven c.s. McCracken and Todd King for
suggesting that SenZar and Synnibarr were the worst RPGs ever, because they are not.

</blockquote>

Sartin: Damn straight. Seriously, people. If you learn only one thing from
all we've written today, make sure it's that giving FATAL a 1/1 Style/Substance rating was
an insult to almost every other product on RPGnet that ever got a 1/1. Even FATAL's most
tolerable parts are just kinda there, and the rest of it is so astonishingly lame that it
will reduce you to a homeless person who rants at the stars, so sniggeringly adolescent it
makes me want to tearfully beg Todd King to forgive me for ever so much as implying that
SenZar was in any way "bad", and so utterly pathetic in its attitudes towards
women and sexuality that it makes me wonder if Hall's last contact with either women or
bright light was when the doctor slapped his mother. Throw in the totally ridiculous
seriousness FATAL takes for itself ("most historically/mythically accurate game
available" my ass), and its half-assed
I'm-just-doing-this-to-annoy-you-PLEASE-notice-me racism, and you've got the most
concentrated form of Suck any human has ever created without the help of an evil
supernatural being. Read it and laugh. It doesn't even deserve the effort it takes to hate
it.

Thank you all. You've
been a great audience. I can't wait to wake up tomorrow and see all the flame wars and
bitching about how we should have done two separate reviews. And now I depart, to rest for
when the forces of negative reviewing will need me again.

<blockquote>
If anybody needs me, I'll be lying in the fetal position in
someplace dark, bleeding.

-Darren MacLennan
</blockquote>

One of us reviewers still has both his eyes. The other reviewer is to be
envied. 

 

<blockquote>
About the picture of Mary, which is unavailable here, if anyone believes in immaculate
conception, they're naive and primitive.
Let it be known that I do not hate Darren and Jason for their emotional approach and
poor reasoning. Instead, I feel sorry for them. Just the same, I am grateful for the
8 mistakes they identified, even if it did take them 24,993 words (according to MS Word),
and hundreds to thousands of mistakes. To recap, their valid points were: Aging Effects
should be percentages, anakim traits should include Bod. Att. modifiers, Hymen Resistance
should be affected by Manhood, Bandaging Wounds in combat on the table, 1m = 3.28' for
Falling Damage, the extraction of Christianity and foreign influence should be explained
more clearly, brassiere (not brazier), and to avoid the potential of racism.

I am fair. Since Darren and Jason did affect the game's development by pointing out 8
mistakes, they can be listed in the credits, if desired.
FATAL is the best role-playing game that there could be!

Byron Hall
04/17/03
</blockquote>

----
[[FRRpart4|Go to part 4]]

FRRpart2

2014-07-08T08:04:41Z

Tyciol: 3>5 appears to be typo, there are 5 parts, here I thought I was done reading for the night....

FATALReviewRebuttal

2014-07-08T05:31:36Z

Tyciol:

The following is Byron Hall and "Burnout"s infamous rebuttal to [http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml MacLennan & Sartin's infamous review] of ... well, the infamous [[Worst RPGs ever#F.A.T.A.L.|F.A.T.A.L]]. (Starting to sense a pattern here?) I'm putting it here because searching for it on the web returns a 404 error; I believe it's OK to put here, since it was a public statement placed on a public forum. Fortunately I saved a copy before it went away into the depths of 'No page found'.

I did some tweaking of the formatting (in particular, changing some colors so it would show up better on a white background), but the text is essentially unchanged--so if you hate the formatting, blame ''them''. (My notes are in black italic text.)

Note that I had to split it into five parts because of the sheer size of the file; this rebuttal quotes ''all'' of the original S&M review.

Have fun reading it... --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]] 04:07, 18 Jun 2005 (PDT)

'''EDIT:''' All right, the legal status of this is questionable.

I ''believe'' it was intended for public consumption, as it was on the public web, and didn't have a copyright or other notice. The editing I mentioned earlier was strictly format; the ''text'' of the original was not changed.

But, who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men... especially lawyers. So, two things:
# Please do not change the text of the reviews--though ''adding'' to them is all right; and
# If someone from FATAL Games wants this removed, please send email, and we'll remove it.

I hope we can resolve this without too much conflict... --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]] 20:19, 18 Jun 2005 (PDT)

----
CHILDISH REVIEW AND AUTHOR'S DEFENSE OF F.A.T.A.L.
Perhaps the most negative review ever written, RPG.net posted a review of F.A.T.A.L. on
4/10/3 and removed it on 4/13/3 from the following page: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9222.phtml ''(Long gone by now, but saved [http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html here]. Then again, most of it is quoted here anyway. --Kwd {But [http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml here] as of March 2010 --MDK also [http://web.archive.org/web/20081217030234/http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html here]})''
Although it is technically not a review, but mostly an attack against me, Byron Hall, I
will demonstrate the fallacies of the authors, Darren MacLennan and Jason Sartin.
Obviously, they hate F.A.T.A.L. and anyone involved with the game. Their hatred can be
only the result of fear. They are fearful because they know it will be published. They are
fearful because the material in the game is supported, and is dissimilar to anything that
attracts them. People fear what is different to them, mostly out of cognitive laziness; it
takes effort to explore what is different. Nonetheless, I appreciate the attention to the
game, and inefficient effort.
As a preface, understand that their fear caused them to react emotionally. Their
attempted review is only an emotional outburst and lacks substance.  I do not need to
rely on emotional appeals (no matter how funny and persuasive they can be), and will show
the stupidity of their arguments, point by point, with reason. Although rhetoric is
effective, it is the lowest form of debate. So that it is clear who is who, Darrens
text is yellow, Jasons is pink, and mine is FATAL red.

''('''Note:''' For the version here, the colors are different: Darren's is green, and Hall's is black--except for notes like this one, of course.)''

Burnout: I will also be commenting on this review. I am John, or
as some people know me, Burnout. I have been an active contributor to the FATAL text since
its conception. So my opinions may be very useful.
There is no God, and the proof of this can be found in a .pdf
file from [http://www.fatalgames.com Fatal Games]
I wish that were true.
If this is the first time that you've ever heard of FATAL, you're
in for a fun ride. Well, let me rephrase: You're in for a "fun ride" if you
consider a fun ride to be, say, hitting your nutsack with a tack hammer. For about four
hours.

Sartin: The nutsack/tack hammer thing wouldn't be a fun ride, but it is
preferable to actually playing FATAL.
. . .
Oh, hi. I'm [mailto:darkmind@hotmail.com Jason Sartin]. You may remember me from such classic
RPGnet moments as "the longest fucking SenZar review ever" and all those
humanity-hating and "go kill yourself already" posts I leave on Tangency. I'll
be helping Darren a lot with this review, because friends don't let friends review FATAL
alone.

Also, this is
obviously going to be one of those grandstanding "spectacle" reviews that tries
to be crowd-pleasing. Those of you who hate that kind of review should do the honorable
thing and whine your asses off in the forum below.

So, Jason establishes his credibility, or
lack thereof.  He delivers, as promised, a review congruent with his
"humanity-hating" and "kill yourself" reputation.  As I said, his
arguments lack substance, but readers will see that soon.  Could his approach be
considered juvenile?  Ask yourself this question again later.

Burnout: Ahhh what a
spectacle this review was. It got pulled off of the Website 3 days after it was posted.
Sounds crowd pleasing to me.

<blockquote>
You think I'm joking. You think that I'm exaggerating for comic
effect. But you will be nodding your head with agreement, and also holding your swollen,
bruised nutsack if you ever happen to open the FATAL .pdf up and give it anything but the
most cursory of readthroughs.
By the way, Darren fails to properly introduce himself.  He is a moderator at
RPG.net, and therefore represents their on-line community.  Obviously, he is
entertained with the thought of male readers hitting their "swollen, bruised
nutsack" with a tack hammer.  Consider the credibility, or lack thereof, of
Darren.  Consider the credibility, or lack thereof, of RPG.net, as he represents
them.

Sartin: He's not joking, people, and I wasn't, either. Those of you
wondering what the most ass-tastic RPG of all time would look like - the one whose suck
factor will forever demolish all challengers and tower over the ages with all the majesty
of a homeless, mindless, drooling, shit-obsessed, impotent moron standing on a mountain of
used Dragon Ball Z condoms - can finally die in peace. 
The arguments are
over. Anyone who says anything else is the worst RPG ever will...well, I'll inject
kerosene into my bladder, piss on them, and then set them on fire. This game sucks THAT
much.
</blockquote>

Burnout: I find the
wording Sartin uses here very contradictory to his review. Just remember this statement,
"well, I'll inject kerosene into my bladder, piss on them, and then set them on
fire."

<blockquote>
Godfuckingdammit.
We're hardly four words into the review, and already the game has dragged me down to its
level.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Any child can rant.  What matters is the quality of the argument.  Jason is
not being dragged anywhere, but responds like this because it is who he is, and would do
better to own up to it.  I intend to show that the substance of my argument is
superior, and that Jason should be dragged up to it.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
So, why is it so bad?

Do tell.

'Cause it's the Necronomicon of role-playing games. Not in the
cool way, where it's a source of occult knowledge with a terrible, terrible price. It's
the Necronomicon in the sense that if you leave a printed copy on your shelf with other
RPGs, then the other RPGs will be clustered around the dead, violated body of one of its
own in the morning. FATAL will most likely be down at the station in the sex crimes
interrogation room, trying its best to put on an innocent face and failing miserably..
Sartin: Another useful comparison is that FATAL is basically anti-thought.
As you can already see, it reacts violently with real sentience.

...as opposed to unreal sentience? I'm getting bored looking for a real argument.

See, [http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4762.html Synnibarr] was bad, but
you have to like Synnibarr. 
Yes, it's a terrible role-playing game in just about every
respect, but it's got heart; it's like a punch-drunk, half-blind boxer who hasn't realized
that his manager is now "arranging fights" by pushing him in front of a speeding
Mack truck and ringing a bell. He's going to get a license plate number embossed into his
skull, but he's still out there, still trying. 

Raven c.s. McCracken, although he's made the occasional misstep,
also seems like a decent guy; just a tad misguided when it comes to writing games. There's
an innocence to Synnibarr, a lack of subterfuge that makes it fun to think about, if not
to read. If nothing else, it's the only game that I've seen so far that has a Midnight
Sunstone Bazooka in it.
Sartin: Yeah. I like how World of Synnibarr is uniquely deranged. The
first time I read through it, I knew I would never see anything else quite like it, like
only McCracken could have made a game that's fucked up the way Synnibarr is fucked up.
It's the Plan 9 From Outer Space of RPGs...its execution was horrible, but its wrongness
has this charming quality to it, and I can't help liking it nowadays. I've actually got
more entertainment out of it than most of the "good" games I own, and I don't
regret buying it, so in a bizarre way, McCracken actually succeeded. 
But even compared to
Synnibarr's few and faint good points, FATAL doesn't have anything going for it.
Nothing at all? I can't wait to address some actual points. Can anyone say...sophistry?
Burnout: Yeah, isn't this supposed to be a review of FATAL, not
Synnibar?

It's the shitty game
to end all shitty games, and it could have been written by any 14 year old with an
obsession with rape and defecation, no design skill, a warez copy of Photoshop, and months
and months of lifeless weekends to work on it. Seriously, if Byron Hall and McCracken got
into a RPG design fight, McCracken would reduce Hall to sucking his wang so fast every
streetwalker in Las Vegas would be taking notes.
</blockquote>

Burnout: For someone
saying this game could be made by a 14-year old, Sartin sure does sound like one. I don't
remember the last time I used the word "wang." I find the players of FATAL and I
mature enough to use words like penis, dick, or cock...without giggling like Sartin
obviously is after saying "wang."

<blockquote>
FATAL - well, if Synnibarr is [http://www.timecube.com timecube.com], then
FATAL is tubgirl.com. (That last link, incidentally, is NOT WORK
SAFE IN THE SLIGHTEST.)
''(Note: I disabled the link. That's not the kind of thing you want to accidentally see. --Kwd)''
It's a product so twisted, so fundamentally broken in its attitude
towards sexuality, so unbelievably stupid that you'd think that the authors are trying to
make themselves look like they're prime candidates for institutionalization. They're not,
which makes it even scarier.

Sartin: By the way, you'll notice lots and lots of these personal attacks
on the creator and players of this game as this drags on. 
</blockquote>

I'm convinced, that's the best Jason can do.

<blockquote>
While this is bad form
in normal RPG reviews, it's hard to avoid here. For one, it's impossible for a game
designer we shouldn't insult to create a game this goddamn stupid. For another, Hall and
his personal drooling fanboys went out of their way to honor RPGnet's forums with their
personal shot at the world record for "number of flame threads started before one's
daily basement Necronomicon (Waldenbooks version) reading". And you know, I think
they won it, too.
</blockquote>

Give credit where credit is due. I did
introduce my game, but I always posted professionally and addressed actual points.  

All flames were by RPGnetters, except for when two players in my group posted aggressively
in my defense.

Burnout: As RPGnetters
know, I am one of those two. I reacted emotionally in that flamewar, which is very unusual
for me. I found it funny how during the days in question only one legitimate argument came
up...the question of why there wasn't any homosexuals in the game. Due to some good points
brought up by one person (I can't remember the name) this has since been changed.

<blockquote>
For those who weren't
there, the flame wars weren't very interesting. It was all simply another chapter in the
long-ass book of moron game designers who have created the "BEST GAEM EVAR!!!"
Except that in this chapter, the obligatory AD&D clone featured vagina circumference
stats and rape rolls, and the moron game designer's followers had all the class and brain
activity of scrotum lint.
</blockquote>

Well, Jason's certainly right, it wasn't
very interesting, mainly because the majority of the criticism was as emotional and
unsupported as you've just read.

<blockquote>
Oh, they want to be
all evil and shocking and crap. God, how pathetically they tried. I mean, imagine opening
a door to find your mother and sister raping each other with pink strap-ons. And you then
realize that you've never seen their bare asses before, because you're pretty sure you
would have remembered the swastikas tattooed there. And upon noticing you, they grin
wickedly and give you the finger in unison.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
For the record, I've never tried to prove to RPGnetters that I'm evil and shocking. In
fact, I've never tried to prove anything to them, except that their arguments are either
emotional or poorly considered. I don't believe that Darren or Jason will ever be
reasonable in debate. I am always willing to debate anything to do with FATAL, and I will
always be professional while debating.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
It's shocking in a way
that instantly blights out all rational thought, but later, you'll have to admit the
finger and wicked grinning part was kinda cool.

Bear in mind that Jason referred to rational thought, as though familiar with it.
That's the feeling the
FATAL morons so wish they could provoke.
</blockquote>

I think it is Darren and Jason who wish to
provoke feelings, for lack of a better approach.

<blockquote>
Instead, they're more
like opening that door to find your weeks-unwashed Otaku brother in his soiled underwear,
masturbating furiously to - of all the goddamn things in the world - an ''Archie'' comic. And
on his bare ass is a tattoo of, inexplicably, someone ''else's'' ass, and he's disgustingly
fat enough for it to be a good 14 inches across. And as he goes at it, he's quietly
moaning to himself about how worthless women, fags, and niggers are and how they should
all be raped or murdered.
</blockquote>

Wrong. I don't have a brother (Are you
projecting? What was your brother like?), a tattoo, and I don't consider women,
homosexuals, and blacks to be worthless, nor deserving of rape and murder.  If you're
suggesting that because rape is covered in the game (on 2 pages out of 900), that I
support it (it's only detailed under Overbearing in Wrestling, and Sociality...where a
footnote supports the historical accuracy), then anyone who plays nearly any role-playing
game supports murder (or killing, which may be a better definition), because murder
(killing) is usually the focus of nearly all games. I guarantee that a comparison of the
percentage of a work devoted to murder or killing is higher in other RPG's than rape is in
FATAL.

In fact, I've included numerous things with
which I diagree in FATAL, such as gods, an ethical-moral system, etc. Jason probably knows
that his conclusions are faulty, but is apparently willing to be at fault. I am not.

Burnout: I personally
think that rape and murder come up, whether behind closed doors or out in the open, in at
least 90% of gaming groups. FATAL just makes it so you see exactly how bad it actually is
by trying not to hide it or pretend it didn't happen. Instead on those pages you'll find
information supported by references on how often it happened and what happened to the
criminal. Now does this mean anybody who plays FATAL supports it? No, it simply shows that
most people try to sweep it under the rug. We know it is, unfortunately, a day-to-day
occurence.

<blockquote>
It's still disturbing
on all kinds of levels. But it's the kind of stupid disturbing that ends with you having
to answer questions to the satisfaction of a prosecuting attorney.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
If the law must consider something to be disturbing, it is the libelous approach of
Darren and Jason.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Point is, the
FATALites have repeatedly proven that treating them with any respect or dignity is
pointless, so we're not going to waste your time or ours with the effort. Back in their
raving lunatic days, I had thought that Raven c.s. McCracken and the SenZar guys had been
full of it, but Byron Hall and his fellow lobotomy candidates made them look like Rebecca
Borgstrom on a prozac bender.
</blockquote>

Again, if it is to be debated as to which
party deserves respect, I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion.

Burnout: They refuse
to waste time showing dignity or respect, but spend pages upon pages showing the opposite.
I would like to state that I prefer being called a Fatalist, not a FATALite.

<blockquote>
But don't worry! None
of this will be a problem, because even if you can ignore the misogynistic, homophobic,
racist, and all-around idiotic mindset of its core supporters, FATAL blows goats with such
panache that it's hard to imagine anyone looking at it and not concluding that Hall
should've given up the needle.
By the way, you may notice that I write the "authors"
of the game, rather than "author". There's a reason for this: While the game
lists only a single author, there are many signs that lead me to believe that Ye Olde
Abominatione has more than one author, although uncredited. You'll find an explanation
later, but I just wanted to get that out of the way.
Several pages will credit a multitude of people for everything from design to
play-testing. All ideas were submitted to me, and written or re-written by me. The credits
section of FATAL will not only list people, but describe who is responsible for what. Many
have asked in e-mails why it is not part of the free version. This, I refuse to answer
until after it is printed.

Burnout: As stated earlier, I have been a contributor to this
game and know that it will be shown later. But my own words are not shown in the text
(that I know of). I bring up my views to Byron during normal conversation or game-testing,
and if disproved by scholarship it does not show up in the text. On the other hand, if
there is nothing to disprove my point and it seems logical, it will most likely be
researched and added as needed.
Sartin: Meanwhile, you'll notice I've simply gone with acting like there's
one author. What can I say? It's easier when there's only one
legendary-industry-boob-for-the-next-ten-years to blame, and the thought that another
human being actually said to him "Hey, FATAL sounds really cool. Let me contribute to
it!" is too depressing to contemplate. 
Let's start with the title page.
It's about time.
Yeah, it's that bad.

Sartin: (a la Duff Man) Oh, yeah! (/Duff Man) "FANTASY ADVENTURE TO
ADULT LECHERY" in crappy you-can-see-the-asses-of-the-little-engraved-figures font.
Right inside a border made up entirely of random "garbage" characters. 
</blockquote>

Even the moment I created this logo (I hesitate to call it that) in PhotoShop, I did not want
to use it. Currently, a logo is being designed by a professional artist. As it should be
known, the game is available free while it is being developed. Much has changed, and much
will before I'm ready to unleash it upon the world in full force. At the moment,
fatalgames.com is completely unadvertised, for the same reason. By the way, the characters
around the edge of the 'logo' actually spell FATAL and other appropriate things. I can't
wait to see the final logo!

<blockquote>
While we're on it, if you can queue up "Optimistic", by
Radiohead, you'll have a good idea of how the both of us feel right now.
Burnout: I'm unfamiliar with that song. I prefer to listen to
much more musically-complicated bands and artists.
FATAL claims to be "the most difficult, detailed, realistic
and historically/mythically accurate role-playing game available."
FATAL lives up to its claim, only the reviewers don't know it. As I refute arguments
about the game, I'll demonstrate this.
'''This is the most damnable lie I have ever seen in my history as an RPG reviewer.'''
Burnout: I just can't let this go. Show me one game where it is
more difficult to achieve goals, level-up, acquire treasure, or just stay alive. Also, I'd
like to see a game that gives you a more detailed of what skills can be done on a
day-to-day basis as well as adventuring. As far as realistic and historically/mythically
accurate, I truly believe that for the period and realm in which the game exists, it is
more accurate than anything I have seen.
In no sense is that statement true; as a matter of fact, in every
sense of the word, that statement is so false as to provide the golden mean for statements
of falsehood. FATAL is difficult only in the sense that peeling your face off a strip at a
time is difficult; detailed only in the respects that give the creators an erection;
realistic - Jesus, I can't even go into it - historically/mythically accurate only in the
sense that its creators occupy the same physical world that these myths originated upon,
and about as accurate as banging your ass on the keyboard to write the Gettysburg Address.

If you believe FATAL is not the most difficult game (soon to be) on the market, then at
least offer counter-evidence. Which game do you consider to be more difficult? If you
believe FATAL is not the most detailed game (soon to be) on the market, then at least
offer counter-evidence. Which game do you consider to be more detailed? You get the idea.
Darren makes a claim, and then offers no support.
Burnout: Even beyond that, what makes it less difficult? How is
it less detailed? Throughout their review you can make note that they never prove anything
about the difficulty or detail.
Sartin: Darren is correct, but it should be noted that this is actually a
good title page, as it neatly hints at much (though by no means all) of what sucks about
this game. 
ADULT LECHERY? Perhaps
it's nitpicking to point out the redundancy (oooh, oooh! What's next? The fantasy game of
"violent combat"? The sci-fi game of "starfaring space travel"? The
White Wolf game of "ah fuck it, just gimme the cool powers already"?), but it's
a good indicator of the level of thought that went into the whole game. And, of course, it
reminds you that this won't be just another Tolkien-clone RPG, but a ''raping and shitting''
Tolkien-clone RPG!

</blockquote>

Does Jason think before he writes? Adult
lechery could easily be different from minor lechery, which I want to avoid at all costs.
This game is for adults only, and involves lechery. Likewise, it is possible to have a
game for adults only, and that has no sexual content at all. Just the same, I was never
comfortable with the title, and see it as the opposite of G.U.R.P.S. in one respect. I
consider what GURPS stands for to be well-conceived: Generic Universal Role-Playing
System. Unfortunately, the title itself (GURPS) is unattractive, nonsensical when alone,
and a failure in marketing and branding. Conversely, FATAL seems an excellent name for the
game for many reasons. Compared to other RPG's, the game system is definitely more fatal
for a character. The beginning of the other part of the name, Fantasy Adventure, is
perfect as far as I'm concerned. I dislike 'To Adult Lechery', mainly because it places a
disproportionate degree of attention on sex. However, this is one element that separates
it from other games, so I guess it's not so horrible. Still, a better name could be spun.
I just wanted to point out that Jason was wrong, 'Adult Lechery' is not redundant.

<blockquote>
DIFFICULT? Oh, yeah.
Anyone with the force of will to endure reading all 900+ pages of this homesick abortion
of a game (without going insane and making sacrifices to sweet Azathoth for a merciful
annihilation of the universe) is no one to be fucked with. And anyone who could do that
and actually play by its anal-retentive trip to hell of a rules system (without succumbing
to Hall's probable compulsion to inhale Draino by the assloads) would have to be some kind
of demigod.
</blockquote>

Burnout: Let's just
take out the rhetoric out of that and see what happens. "Oh, yeah. Anyone with the
force of will to endure reading all 900+ pages of this...game...is no one to be fucked
with. And anyone who could do that and actually play by its...rules system...would have to
be some kind of demigod." I personally see this as a compliment. Even though I don't
consider myself a demigod, I do consider myself someone not to be fucked with. So thanks
Sartin.

<blockquote>
And yes, it's saying
difficult like it's a good thing.
But hey, ain't that
ALWAYS the eternal struggle of gaming? "Play a difficult game and get massive
headaches because it's needlessly complicated and
PC-killing-because-I-accidentally-dropped-my-rusty-dagger-and-impaled-my-favorite-intestinal-tract"
versus "Go with something that won't make me roll five times on the Random Shit
Discoloration Table every time I cast Light My Finger and thus spend more time actually
doing things"?
</blockquote>

FATAL has been played in a comparison with
AD&D 2e, and it does not generally require more die rolls (except, for example, in the
case of Crucial Damage), nor does it take longer to do anything. My question to Jason is:
have you played the game or merely thumbed through it? Whether you choose to show respect
or not, you're showing incompetence by reviewing a product without play-testing it.

Burnout: Also, it's
not needlessly PC killing. It's realistically PC killing. If you drop a dagger you're not
going to puncture an intestinal tract. But, if you get stabbed two or three times with
that rusty dagger you will have a little less than 50-50 chance of survival. Seems better
than DnD where you can get slashed by a dragon, and if high enough level, probably
survive.

<blockquote>
REALISTIC AND
HISTORICALLY/MYTHICALLY ACCURATE? Oh, I bet.
Player 1: R0XX0R! This is the best system for emulating the myths of
Heracles I've ever seen! And it's fucking sweet how all the gods, monsters, and heroes
can't do anything that wouldn't be possible in real life! 
</blockquote>

FATAL
does not specialize in ancient Greek mythology, although elements of it have been included
or influential. Faulty criticism is worthless when exposed, and discreidts only the critic
thereafter, not FATAL or myself. Does Jason understand that?

<blockquote>
Player 2: Hell,
yeah. When I was trying to get past Cerberus, he wasn't any tougher than a pit bull with
two extra rubber heads! And later, when I was masturbating on the temple altar and I
angered the gods, they didn't do anything but just Not Appear. Dude, you can't HANDLE the
realism!
</blockquote>

Burnout: Actually,
I'm quite sure Cerberus would be much more difficult in FATAL due to the size factor
causing more or less damage, depending on larger or smaller. More than likely if you got
bit by Cerberus in FATAL he would simply tear you in two. I definitely wouldn't try unless
I was using trebuchets from a great distance.

<blockquote>
Player 1: W00T! If
this were any more realistic, you'd be able to TASTE the penis length!
Player 2: Testify!
Lots of people in history had penises, so it's ultra realistic and historically accurate
to put in rules about that!
Player 1: Man, I
could cream myself just thinking about this! I can't WAIT to see if it has rules for hut
building, grass growing, nose picking, and the spread of Christianity, since people
experienced those during history, too!

</blockquote>

It is important to note that the spread of
Christianity has been removed from FATAL. This game is the most historically/mythically
accurate, given its premises. For example, it should be obvious that it is accurate to
medieval Europe, however it is noted on the first page that one exception is that gods are
assumed to exist. Therefore, the game assumes that pantheons were not replaced by
Christianity, as they were in Europe. Just the same, I am thankful Jason showed his
oversight to me. I will make it more clear so that others are not so easily confused.

<blockquote>
So, yeah. 
Okay, I gave the
subtitle more attention than it deserved. Let's just say that if Hall set out to write ONE
FUCKING LINE that instantly screams that the ensuing RPG will be very nearly as cool as
getting diagnosed with cancer and Necrotizing Fasciitis bacteria on the same day, he succeeded brilliantly.
And for the fun part, the FATAL Games logo is "Where the
dice never lie." I would suggest that the owners of FATAL Games must have dice that
come up "THIS GAME SUCKS, BEAVIS" no matter how they are thrown, or we must
chalk this up as yet another falsehood.

Sartin: Yeah, I really like that logo, too. It was nice of the FATALites
to point out that when you play games from other companies, your dice may lie to you. Ha,
I knew it! All those times I was playing D&D or SenZar, and that d20 would show a 3 or
some shit when I knew I rolled a 20. Thanks, FATAL, for showing me the way! 
</blockquote>

Jason made a logical mistake in his assumption: The subtitle "Where the Dice Never
Lie" does not necessarily imply that dice from other companies lie. In fact, the
subtitle serves a useful purpose, and has a great history. The phrase, "the dice
never lie" was coined by Jim Hausler, a good friend and contributor. Many years ago,
we were playing AD&D 2e, and whenever die-rolls were to his advantage, he bellowed
"the dice never lie!" At any rate, Fatal Games can be confused with, say,
computer games. By having 'dice' in the subtitle, it makes it clear that it is for dice
games.

<blockquote>
No, wait. This game
still proves once and for all that Darwin was an ass-grabbing fool.
</blockquote>

Darwin was a great man.

<blockquote>
Oh, and did I forget to mention that it's nine hundred pages
long?
This is why I summoned help from Jason Sartin, people.
Funny, I've introduced many to the game, and very few were overwhelmed. Some people are
more capable than others.
Sartin: Yeah, thanks. Now watch, by the end, I'll probably have to summon
someone else to help me. We'll have Justin Bacon or Scott Lynch or Elissa Carey or some
other poor bastard down here to write the closing paragraph and talk me out of climbing a
tower and shooting random basement-dwelling losers. 
Mmmmmm...killing
potential FATALites...
</blockquote>

There is a difference between games and
people. Jason seems unable to make that distinction. Why so personal?

<blockquote>
But yeah. It's nine
hundred pages long, and you can hardly turn one page without seeing something that's
desperately stupid or sucking or screaming "Look how COOL and HISTORICALLY ACCURATE
and HUGE DICKED I am, because I'm terrified you won't notice!". You can see the bind
we're in.

AD&D 2e, when considering all rulebooks, far exceeded 900 pages. I mention this
game because of its popularity. AD&D 2e, however, seemed to offer numerous books to
financially take advantage of consumers, otherwise known as a good business strategy. I
refuse to do so, and believe gamers would rather have it all together without redundancy.
I will continue to refute claims that FATAL is not historically accurate, given its
premises. So far, arguments by Darren and Jason are weak in this respect. Oh, and I
never once mentioned the size of my personal manhood, regardless of how proud of it I am.
Burnout: I would just like to take this time to do some adding.
Hmm, DnD 3e Player's Handbook, 301 pages...Dungeon Master's Guide, 256 pages...Psionics
Handbook, 156 pages. Now that's 713 right there and I know there are many more books in
the DnD 3e collection.
This is from the second page:
"For instance, assume you are an adventuring knight who has
just fought his way to the top of a dark tower where you find a comely young maiden
chained to the wall. Some may choose to free the whimpering wench. Others may free her
while hoping to win her heart. Instead of seeking affection, some may talk to her to see
if they can collect a reward for her safe return. Then again, others may be more
interested in negotiating freedom for fellatio. Some may think she has no room to bargain
and take their fleshly pleasures by force. Others would rather kill her, dismember her
young cadaver, and feast on her warm innards."
So, basically, FATAL is the date rape RPG.
Another faulty conclusion drawn by Darren. Where is dating included? More to the point,
multiple ways of role-playing are mentioned, ranging from 'good' to 'evil' (though in real
life I hesitate to use those terms). Why he focuses on rape is for him to answer. As
mentioned elsewhere, FATAL is intended to be comprehensive, and if examined, the reader
will find balance between 'good' and 'evil'.
Sartin: It's also the cock fruit, attacking turd, and (of course) gay
buttfucking ogre RPG, but one thing at a time! (It's like an express train full of things
designed to hurt your mind; just when you think that it's finished running you over,
another car hits you, grinding yet another valuable part of your soul beneath its wheels.)
</blockquote>

Obviously, it is a game that attempts to provide a balance of all things, a true system in which a
gamer can do anything they want, provided the others around the table have similar views.
For example, it's also the courtly love and chivalry RPG, but anyone who is a competent
reviewer would offer a representative sample of the game, not just that which fascinates
them.

<blockquote>
There's not really a whole lot of ways that I can get around
this: FATAL, as a whole, is your chance to stop being the good guy and start being the
soulless rapist that you and your tiny clique of brain-dead morons knew they could be. You
can come home from a long day of being shunned by anybody with a soul, wipe the Mace from
your eyes, scuttle down into the cold concrete of the basement and engage in what amounts
to a verbal circle-jerk with a clique of people just as terribly broken as you are.
Consistent with my previous comment, FATAL also provides a chance to be ethical and
moral beyond any other RPG. Although I philosophically disagree with the foundations of
the disposition system, it is more thorough and coherent in terms of ethics and morals
than any other RPG. I doubt that either Darren or Jason read the game, other than thumbing
through for ammunition to support their biases. By the way, it is best to avoid
redundancies, like a "soulless rapist". Again, Darren should think before he
writes.
Burnout: A couple of additions to that, if you don't mind, Byron.
It's also the grocery-getter, castle-building, weapon- and armor-forging, king-serving,
self-serving, or master-serving RPG. Just wanted to point out some of how many more
detailed options there are for a PC rather than just saying an NPC does all the un-fun
(for lack of a better term) acts.
Sartin: I'll cut in here to say that while being a brain-dead rapist is an
important part of the FATAL experience, there are two further aspects that make it the
visible-from-space pile of festering associty that it is. 

1) Juvenile ideas that
even the SenZar guys would've been too embarrassed to touch. You know, like magical
fumbles that cause clones to spawn from your cock, or make you shit constantly, or make
you start anal-fisting your target while trying to bite your ear, or make you recite
stupid lines that were probably ripped off from metal songs every time you cast a spell.
Or magical ingredients like vaginal yeast or the "cunt-pipe" of an elderly
virgin.
</blockquote>

Burnout: I would like
to jump in here and say that maybe the reason for the embarrassment is that they aren't
mature enough to handle such issues.

Remember when I asked you, the reader, to
consider whether or not Jason's responses are juvenile? While I admit that FATAL has some
juvenile-level humor in it, it is interesting that Jason seems to be a hypocrite: he
accuses FATAL of being juvenile, when his responses here, and elsewhere according to
himself, have a higher proportion of it, word for word, and far fewer instances of
professionalism. Thank you for remembering. 

<blockquote>
2) Rules so
mind-bogglingly stupid and complicated that you'd beg for a no holds barred
Rifts/Synnibarr crossover instead. Note that this can overlap with the juvenile ideas,
like with how likely you are to critical hit someone's clitoris, or the magical fumble
that makes your nutsack swell to 10d1000 (inches, we can only presume, it's not labeled)
for the next 3d3 days.
</blockquote>

Although Jason admits that he is unable to
comprehend the game that he reviews, its rules that are
"mind-bogglingly...complicated" support my argument that, at least for him,
FATAL is the most difficult RPG available. I'd like to rest my case, but his emotions are
running strong, so I'll continue to support this argument when necessary.

<blockquote>
But like I said, one
thing at a time.
</blockquote>

Please, don't get boggled down.

<blockquote>
While we're still on
the second page, by the way, check out that first sentence: "Welcome to a fantasy
medieval role-playing game that focuses on realism and detail whenever possible ''without
sacrificing fun.''" (Emphasis mine.)
Later, when you've
seen Hall's idea of "realism and detail without sacrificing fun", you'll be
invited to laugh bitterly with me.
</blockquote>

I'm willing to bet the reader will be
laughing at you, not with you.

<blockquote>
You know, it occurs to me that most games of FATAL are probably
played with only the one hand, since -
Ow.
OW. OW. FUCK. MY FUCKING BRAIN. OW.
Remind me not to go down that path again.
Would it do any good? I can rise above that level. Can Darren?

Sartin: Not so fast! You forgot to picture them being the only gamers who
have to wipe off their dice when they're done! I'd bet nothing but nothing will jinx your
dice faster than leaving someone's semen on them. Hell, when it happens, the FATALites
probably laugh and shout (a la Saruman) "You will taste MAN JUICE!" Ugh. (Stop
putting IMAGES INTO MY GODDAMN MIND, DAMMIT. OW!)
</blockquote>

It seems like Jason gleefully went much further with Darren's idea, but is ashamed to admit
how he thinks.

<blockquote>
See, here's the thing: Vampire is a game that can also be
classified as a date-rape game. You're a vampire, a mythic creature who's been sexualized
by about three hundred years worth of literature into a romantic creature; and yet, as a
vampire, you're stealing a part of people's bodies without their permission, every single
night. You're eventually going to kill one of them when you get a little too hungry one
night.
And do you know why Vampire is the superior game by far? Because
the game forces you to find out what you'll do to survive. If you have to drink somebody
else's blood in order to live another night, will you do it? Will you drain some bum on
the street, or stalk somebody for three hours and take only a taste? Or will you subsist
on dogs and cats? Every time you stab somebody in the throat with your fangs, drink the
blood - even if you're not thinking about it in the game - you're essentially risking
somebody else's life for your own. You can say that you're a vampire, you have to do that,
but nothing's stopping you from seeing the next sunrise except your own sense of
self-preservation, even when you're already dead. Yes, you are playing a vampire in an
RPG, but you can still kill yourself in the game and make it a valid, in-character choice.

Vampire sounds pretty limited. I have never played it, but it sounds like a game that
focuses on one race or 'occupation', in FATAL terms: a Vampire. If this is true, FATAL
offers either ten or a hundred times more role-playing possibilities, respectively. If I'm
wrong about Vampire, then my apologies to the game designers. The point of an RPG should
be to allow a gamer to play the role of anyone they desire. FATAL delivers.
Burnout: I would like to reiterate what Byron said earlier about
FATAL. I doubt anywhere in Vampire does the vampire date the victim. So Darren dont
sugarcoat it. Vampire could be described as a rape game. The low level of maturity when
dealing with controversial subjects blows my mind. Anyway, I dont really see the
difference between playing a vampire and being that unlucky gamer who rolls a random
mental illness and ends up with raptophilia. Either way youre almost forced to take
another human being by force and get what you need from them. But there is the option to
kill yourself instead. 
Sartin: Hate to cut into Darren's pathos, but the thing I remember most
from Vampire was how you can chainsaw whack someone with 8 successes and still barely hurt
them. Fucking dice pools. (Oh, hush.) 
</blockquote>

The
odds in FATAL are that if you attack a character with a weapon, then they are likely to
die. By the way, this is an obvious attempt at realism.

<blockquote>
But yes, sadly, even
in this area, Vampire is way superior to FATAL.
</blockquote>

Why does Jason never support his claim with
evidence? In the area of attacks and the likelihood of fatality, I challenge Jason to
support his claim.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I find it mockingly hilarious how Sartin says that
hitting someone with a chainsaw 8 times and having them live is better than FATAL. While
in FATAL most likely youll have trouble getting up from a footmans flail shot.
Even better eight shots. HA
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
It's in the background, but it's there. You have to make a
decision. In Vampire, it's an adult decision: Do I kill to live? In FATAL, it's "Date
rape and killing and cadavers are all cool! YEEEEEEAH! THANK YOU FOR SHOWING ME THE WAY,
SPRAY PAINT HUFFING AND SOCIAL RETARDATION!"
It's boring to continue to correct Darren for failing to represent FATAL. In FATAL, you
may have to make complicated socio-political decisions as a lord or lady, king or queen.
Did he see that in the game? Has he actually read it?
Maybe there's some subculture that's into this; judging from the
FATAL theme song, which sounds like the Cookie Monster chasing a drum kit being pushed
down a flight of stairs, I'd guess thrash metal or speed metal or metal metal or whatever
the fuck they call it nowadays.
The Cookie Monster is cool! They call that death metal.
Burnout: From what I know about the FATAL theme, it was done very
quickly and probably should be redone in a better studio version. But I definitely agree
that death metal is some of the best music out nowadays.

Sartin: Incidentally, the [http://www.hyperbooks.com/fatal/fatal.theme.sample.mp3 FATAL theme] sucked
enough to make Darren beg me to kill him. If for some reason you aren't interested in
suicide, I would recommend not listening to it. Hell, I would recommend not paying
attention to FATAL at all, but here you still are. You've got problems, people.
</blockquote>

So, Jason's best means of recommending that people pay no attention to something is to do a
lengthy, emotional review, in which conclusions are the result of flawed reason? If so,
then I have never seen this approach before.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I have only one question. Why didnt you do it
Sartin? 
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
See, even the most extreme of this stuff - say, [http://www.cannibalcorpse.net/ Cannibal Corpse] - is designed to take a stage
persona, say "Screw you, world!" for a few hours, then being regular people
again; it's born out of showmanship, like an extreme form of professional wrestling sans
the body slams. FATAL isn't a piece of showmanship; it's one of the diaries from Se7en, a
document pretending that it's perfectly normal and healthy and winds up painting its
authors as terribly, terribly maladjusted.
..."terribly, terribly"... There Darreb goes again with redundancy. FATAL is
not a piece of showmanship. It is a comprehensive game, true to its premises. By the way,
I think Cannibal Corpse is awesome musically, lyrically, and athletically.
Burnout: The only game issues that have brought up to this point
are that the game is mysogonistic, homophobic, and racist. Not to say that it
is, because there are gays in the game. Along with equal degradation of males and females,
and equal degradation of races. But, to say that none of those existed in the time period
covered by FATAL, is rather maladjusted. Beyond that if youre looking for the most
extreme of stuff I recommend looking a band called Anal Blast. Much more extreme, in my
view, than Cannibal Corpse.

Sartin: During the FATAL flame wars, Hall really did have that
psychotically calm John Doe demeanor in his posts. It might actually have been impressive,
but any chance for that went out the window when he never defended any of his bullshit
arguments or claims when MacLennan, Patrick Chipman, and everyone else started questioning
him. Well, and when I couldn't help picturing him in a lavender bunny suit as he typed.
(Okay, no, that's not originally what I was picturing him doing, but it's a
sanity-preserving substitute.)

In debates, I always remain calm and unemotional. Actually, every post is available to
anyone who desires to view them at RPGnet. Since this is verifiable, Jason either lies, or
simply doesn't know any better. I attempted to defend my claims when questioned. However,
there was hardly any questioning, and most posts resemble the level presented by Darren
and Jason in this review. When I realised, by and large, RPGnetters were aversive to
reason and driven by emotion, I stopped posting. When Darren MacLennan chose libel and
defamation of character to debate, I stopped posting. So far, my credibility must seem
immeasurably beyond that of Darren and Jason. I am credible because I am honest,
professional, and a scholar. Nothing seems to drive these two crazier. I will always be
open to debating FATAL.

And I am now on the second page.
If you want another good example of how the game's authors seem
desperate to lie to themselves, and by extension the reader, you can check out their
claims that they're not really sexually deviant; they're just including it for the purpose
of completeness. For example:

The information in this game does not represent the world-views
of Fatal Games, nor is extreme violence or extreme sex condoned by Fatal Games. Instead,
the information is included for completeness.
Although you should have put quotes on my words above, let it be known I still stand by
them.
And this weak bullshit might fly, if it weren't for the fact that
they were openly drooling over the possibility of people extorting sexual favors and/or
raping a helpless woman ''not one page before.''
It's tiring to reiterate, but I covered numerous possibilities in the example Darren
cited (by the way, I thank him for citing an example). However, he selected one
possibility at the expense of the others. Darren faiedl to represent FATAL.
Burnout: Along with failing to represent FATAL, Darren also
doesnt realize that in more than 95% of games extorting sexual favors and/or
raping is not part of the story. Having been a play-tester for a few years I can say
this with utmost assurance. 

Sartin: That, and it's a trick statement anyway. Remember that FATALites
lack the necessary balls to even approach women in real life. Their supposed
non-endorsement of rape/violence stems from cowardice, not "Hey, it's just a
game." 
</blockquote>

What Jason knows about my personal life, for example, is obviously far less than his
insinuation. For example, my wife studies bioengineering and used to be a model. I don't
think much of most college curriculums, but if my claims are true, then she is at least
reasonably intelligent and attractive. To my delight, I would argue that she is an
advanced scholar (knowing many stupid scholars, I mean a smart one), and exceedingly
beautiful. We are identical in age, and born only one week apart. She is everything to me,
and yes, she is a woman. Jason's arguments provide no substance or challenge.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I would say that goes for all Fatalists that I know as
well. That what he knows is far less than his insinuation. I refuse to get into my
personal life but Ill just say there is no lack of necessary balls or
cowardice. That being said there is also no lack of opposite gender choice for
me. I like to have options.

But hey. If you don't
want to play dirty by personally attacking the FATALites, just consider this: "Okay,
they don't condone rape, misogyny, and five hundred foot nutsacks...they're just really
proud that the overwhelming focus FATAL puts on rape, misogyny, and five hundred foot
nutsacks makes it SO much more 'realistic' and 'historically/mythically accurate' than
every other RPG available!"

If the reader considers Jason's claim, then the reader should be compelled to measure
the degree of focus on rape, for instance. This is necessary, because Jason does not do it
himself, to support his claim. There is only a focus on rape on 2 pages out of 900. Since
page numbers vary as material is added or the game is edited, I will direct your attention
to the Wrestling skill in Chapter 8: Skills. Specifically, please read the last two
paragraphs of Overbearing. Note that the female has a chance to injure the would-be
rapist. This section on rape is intended to present it realistically, not from a biased
perspective of a rapist. Elsewhere in Chap. 6: Sociality, _Medieval Prostitution_ is cited
for the information on rape in societal terms. Aside from these, there are spells
involving rape. I have not counted them or their total length in numbers of pages, and do
not consider it necessary. Please note that they are referenced from Greek Magical Papyri,
and are accurate to the translated scrolls. To make this clear, spells from Greek scrolls
have italicized titles, while spells invented by myself and others have non-italicized
titles. I have not counted spells involving rape that are either Greek or invented, but
doubt that invented spells are disproportionate in number. In short, if a reader compares
the amount of material involving rape in FATAL with material that does not, the reader
will find it to be a very small portion, and not out of line with history.

There are no instances of misogyny (woman-hating) in FATAL that outnumber instances of
man-hating (for lack of a better term). Either rarely occurs, but only misogyny is cited
by Darren and Jason.

As far as I know, the gigantic and magically altered scrotum is only a single instance
in Appendix 3: Random Magical Effects, of which there are 2,000. Most of the random
magical effects are intended as humorous, since they may include anything. However, if
anyone finds a historically accurate list of random magical effects, please contact Fatal
Games, and expect to see them included, as would be true to the premises of the game.

Doesn't really work,
does it?
</blockquote>

Your approach? No, it doesn't.

<blockquote>
Or, even better:

For instance, the detail of violence may exceed that of other
role-playing games, as crucial damage may explicitly explore the destruction of many body
parts and internal organs.
Except that what the guys at FATAL know about medical science
and/or the human body is so small as to actually suck away from the collected body of
medical knowledge; as a matter of fact, there are entire anatomy texts that are now blank
because the knowledge has been drained away to fill the terrible wound that FATAL made.
While I am not a medical doctor, I think the reader will find that my anatomy is better
than the arguments of Darren and Jason.
Sartin: Those of you who are upset that Hall took a giant piss on
anatomical science can take heart in knowing that he also soaked everything that's ever
been written about art, medieval history, and RPG design while he was at it. 
Meanwhile,
Testosticles forbid that just fucking describing an injury isn't any better than FATAL's
lame ass "Crucial Damage" charts. I mean, really:

02% Belly Button 
Opponents belly is hacked, though no critical organs behind it. The
small intestine may (70%) spill forth. If it does, the sight of this causes the opponent
to need to pass a Health check at TH 50 or be stunned for 2d4 rounds.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Yeah, having your
small intestine spill forth sure can be distracting! (And yes, any "It's just a flesh
wound!" jokes you want to make here are entirely appropriate. It's not a
life-threatening critical.)

Although Jason meant crucial, not critical, he failed to account for the damage.
Because of damage, which is handled prior to the chart he referenced, all Crucial Damage
is life-threatening. In fact, if he paid attention, nearly all weapon-based attacks are
life-threatening in FATAL. However, a belly button is listed as less crucial regarding
hacking a torso than, say, hacking a lumbar vertebrae. Again, Jason failed to represent
FATAL.


Further, role-playing situations that accurately represent
mythology are likely at some point to include rape, molestation, encounters in brothels or
possibly situations that deviate more from social norms.
Enjoy this first mention of "Well, because it's historical,
we're not in trouble." As much in life, the authors of FATAL use history and
mythology as they use any other source: Go through it for the dirty parts, ignore
everything else, then claim that you're entirely accurate. (And while there are myths that
deal with rape - most of them Greek - molestation, brothel visits, or giving birth to a
clone through your cock didn't appear in any of them. Nice try, though.)

Although Darren erroneously presumed to know anything about my life, he failed to
support any argument about skipping solid content and only including dirty parts. By the
way, Darren should learn that brothels existed long before, and after, Ancient Greece. In
fact, brothels were the accepted norm throughout the Middle Ages. As a reference, I cited
_Medieval Prostitution_. There is nothing dirty about notes on Roads, Mail, and Around
Town, which are sections in Chapter 6: Sociality. Of course, I can cite numerous other
examples, but Darren does not appear to support his claims, or if he does, it is with
minimum effort. Finally, random magical effects have already been discussed. If a
historical source exists, please let me know.
Burnout: I have to jump in here just to state how hypocritical
Darren is. He accuses FATAL of only taking the dirty parts of historical texts. But does
this himself when doing a review of FATAL. 
Sartin: This would be a good place to rag on the "one thousand hours
of research" the FATALites are ever so quick to bleat that Hall did when he shat out
FATAL. While many of you have been understandably skeptical of this figure, I can easily
see it. In fact, going from FATAL's end product, Hall's research probably went something
like: 
20 hours: Playing AD&D and thinking "I could so do better than
this."

</blockquote>

20
years, actually.

Burnout: 12 years here.

<blockquote>

0.4 hours: Hitting head on a toilet and becoming absolutely sure of that. 
2 hours: Being rejected by fuckable women. (If you're willing to expand the definition of
"fuckable" to include the words "within four drinks", then the final
research total can be considered well over 1,000 hours.)

</blockquote>

Judging by the level of Jason's criticism alone, I can't help but think that Jason would surely
fail a comparison between my sex life and his. Why are we even talking about sex life?

Burnout: Im just wondering. As much as Sartins criticisms are
based on the Fatalists having cowardice to approach women or being rejected by them. I
wonder if this is projection.

<blockquote>
25 hours: Huffing paint and listening to death metal.
</blockquote>

I never have "huffed" paint, but I've definitely listened to death metal,
classical, and neoclassical (and nothing else) for over a decade.

<blockquote>

0.2 hours: Composing the FATAL theme while still disoriented from the paint huffing.
</blockquote>

It's a moot point, but I don't consider the FATAL theme to be an outstanding musical work. It
was not written with that intention. Instead, it was written with a commerical intent,
which automatically sacrifices musicality. Just the same, it serves its purpose well,
until something better comes along.

<blockquote>

20 hours: Thumbing through every medieval history book that has the word
"prostitute".

</blockquote>

Does anyone know of any others that are written by respectable scholars?

<blockquote>

5 hours: Accidentally flipping through Roman or Biblical history books and either a)
mistaking them for medieval history books, or b) failing to realize that, as human society
varied drastically over the course of history, writing FATAL in a way that portrays
society being pretty much the same EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME and calling it
"historically accurate" is a bad move.
</blockquote>

I hope it is understood from earlier that the first fallacy made by Jason above is that in
many instances, ancient literature had to be consulted to fill-in for medieval literature
to be true to the premises of the game. For example, some argue that slaves did not exist
in medieval Europe. However, if they considered that I have attempted to extract
Christianity due to polytheism, then the prevalent slavery during the days of Rome is
appropriate.

The second fallacy is that FATAL does not portray society the same "EVERYWHERE, ALL THE
TIME".  What Jason fails to understand is that there are 2 books to FATAL. The
first, the one he pretends to have reviewed, is the system itself. The 2nd book, entitled
Neveria so far, will detail FATAL's gaming world, monsters, and gods. As the most detailed
gaming world ever, you can expect cultural and temporal variance. To Jason's credit, on
this last point, how could he have known better?

<blockquote>

0.4 hours: Mistaking a policewoman for a prostitute. 
10 hours: Flipping through anatomy and medical texts while drunk. "Yeah, I think you
could make a Health check to survive if your sternum was driven into your heart. Way
cool."

</blockquote>

Actually, I don't get drunk (though I will have a few here and there). I am not a drinker, just so
you know.

<blockquote>

2 hours: Repairing punctures in "Sexpot Annie".
</blockquote>

Projecting?

<blockquote>

5 hours: Flipping through kids' mythology books and watching Hercules: the Legendary
Journeys, and realizing (with the help of a large, skull-shaped bong) that Zeus and Odin
must have been total ass-bandits and they just left that part out, and
"mythological" just means whatever the fuck you want to make up.
</blockquote>

But, I never inhaled! Actually, I've probably only seen one or two episodes of Hercules. I
praise Bruce Campbell, but think the rest of it should rot.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I have actually seen about 10 or 15 episodes of
Hercules. For about 2 weeks I thought they were hilarious. The absolutely sad fight scenes
were funny until I realized they were trying to be serious. But none of my mythological
knowledge came from that sorry show.

10 hours: Reading up on non-cognitivism, ether theory, and physiognomy
without realizing that they're not exactly respected ideas anymore. 
900 hours: Circle jerking with Torturon, Burnout, and Psychotic Messanger (sic) of Death.
</blockquote>

Although
I included basic physiognomy and the concept of ether in FATAL, I have never respected
either (obviously). Just another instance of things I put in the game that I disagree
with, but see them as appropriate to FATAL. I wonder how much Jason knows about
noncognitivism.

<blockquote>
Burnout: I actually to a degree respect the idea of
noncognitivism. I know most people dont but its a matter of opinion, I guess.

I can't verify any of
this, of course, but it's the combination of events that would most plausibly result in
FATAL.
</blockquote>

By now, everyone who has read this should be
used to the fact that Jason supports or verifies little to nothing.

<blockquote>
By the way, did I mention that this book is 900 pages long?
Redundancy.
'Cause I'm going to be bringing it up as this review progresses.
Great.
A lot.
Wonderful.
Because you bastards owe me.
Great attitude.
Sartin: Yeah, what he said. I never thought I'd see actually wanting to
play Imagine or Palladium, but now that I've gone through FATAL, damned if I can even
remember what sucked so much about them. 
Ugh. Fuck
"owing", gentle readers. I'm coming for your young.
Burnout: Hmmm.. Short term memory loss. Are we so sure its
not Sartin who has the large, skull shaped bong."
What makes FATAL especially fun is the droning, obsessive tone of
its rules sections - for example:
Finally, observe that when these sub-abilities and abilities are
determined initially for a character, the abilities are determined for young adults. After
the sub-abilities are described and the tables presented, aging effects are illustrated
which must be referenced throughout the character's life. The last chapter details how two
abilities, Physical Fitness and Strength, may be increased through persistent exercise,
and also, an alternate rolling method is presented.

Although the current version has not been made available in over a month due to
numerous little changes, it will be possible (in the same # of pages) to also increase
Intelligence with use (or its converse). This is cited from _The Executive Brain_ and
_Owner's Manual for the Brain_. 
And there's that not-English again; where, when you rewrite it
for a review, you find yourself restructuring the way that you speak English. Sure, you
may have been able to write and/or speak it before; but then you read something like this,
and you find yourself taking sentences out into the shed at midnight, butchering them,
burying parts of them in the backyard and then redistributing what's left over the
original document as a warning to any other proper use of the language in the book. 
That was a lengthy way for Darren to say he dislikes my prose (especially since there's
little, if anything, grammatically wrong with it, while both Darren and Jason commit split
infinitives, dangling prepositions, etc. throughout their review).
Burnout: I think they just have trouble understanding Byron's
prose, is all. They actually have to think for a minute and I bet that hurts to know that
the one who created FATAL has a better understanding of the English language than they do.
Sartin: On the "bright" side, FATAL is arguably not as
mind-numbingly written as Aria or Multiverser. On the "you haven't been huffing
butane" side, that's much like saying "Okay, so I slid naked down a giant
greased razor blade, but at least I'm not the guy who was thrown into a vat of fire
ants." 

In both cases, either
outcome is totally stupid and painful, and the party responsible should be gang-beaten
with cattle prods until the God of Bitch-Slapping finally comes down and says
"Alright, I think he's had enough..." Except that in the most obnoxious case of
all these, the God would suddenly add "Oh, wait, this was for writing FATAL, wasn't
it? Here, let me recharge those for you."
Yes, I'm actually
saying that writing FATAL is more worthy of a cattle prod beating than throwing someone
into a vat of fire ants.
</blockquote>

Although you are entitled to your opinion,
you have been unable to support it.

<blockquote>
See, try this:

These abilities only represent your character at the start of his
life, so they will change as he ages; charts for this are elsewhere. Later on, we'll
detail how you can increase your Strength and Physical Fitness, as well as an alternate
method of rolling dice. Also, since you're reading FATAL, you should probably be aware
that this game sucks.
I'm sure it's obvious, but just to be safe, I never wrote a single sentence above.
Burnout: I think its quite obvious given the fact Darren
states These abilities only represent your character at the start of his life.
I could just imagine that. This is one strong baby youve got here miss.
Also the fact he doesnt state where the charts and details are for increasing
sub-abilities are at. Now I dont claim to have the greatest grasp of the English
language, as far as grammar, but Byrons writing, to me, is far easier to reference.

See? English. No [http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id94/pg1/ Grant Morrison-esque] portals
opened up into a not-world in which the English language was thrown down, danced upon and
then sodomized. Not yet, at least.
I wonder if Darren is aware that his English, at least as presented here, is worse than
that in FATAL.
Sartin: Needless to say, there aren't any editors, copyeditors,
proofreaders, or non-retards in FATAL's credits. I'm not convinced there are any human
beings, either, but we won't get into that. 
</blockquote>

As stated before, credits are not listed...yet.

<blockquote>
Burnout: Obviously not, as Sartin stated before we are demigods.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Instead, I'd rather
take this moment to rant that this is a great example of why editors are really damned
important if you're writing a RPG. They're not just good for correcting typos, but making
sure your writing technique does not end up sucking all that is ass. If you're not the
best writer in the history of the universe, don't end up like FATAL! Get those editors!
</blockquote>

I'm sure the reader noticed that again,
Jason did not support his claim that English is problematic in FATAL. How many times does
this need to be said? Somebody, please count.
----
[[FRRPart2|Go to part 2]]

Talk:FATALReviewRebuttal

2014-07-08T05:29:07Z

Tyciol: /* Simple Point */

=2005=
Hoo, yuck.

This is a resurrection of a copy of Hall and "Burnout"s rebuttal to MacLennan & Sartin's review of their precious "game". Actually I suspect it's a copy of it, which makes the formatting look even worse... lots of blockquotes and special margin tweaks involved. I didn't remove those because 1) it might detract from how they specifically wanted it to look, and 2) it would have been even ''more'' of a pain in the ass.

Of course, I didn't put in any comments of my own, except strictly editorial stuff.

Here is a good place to put those comments on the text, assuming you don't want it to go too far. If you want extensive discussion, it might be better to start a thread on RPOpen.

Have ''loads'' of fun with this..... --[[User:Knockwood|Lord Knockwood the Mad]] 04:39, 18 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Reading part of this shows two things:

1: That Hall and his fanboi friend are like most other people - they've taken their position and refuse to budge, preventing any rational discussion and turning it into an exchange of insults. (their rebuttals amounts to "no, you")

2: That Hall and his fanboi friend are also probably brain-damaged. They show absolutely no signs of knowing what humor and sarcasm are while making several patently absurd arguments and throwing accusations everywhere. - Oddsod {{Unsigned|24.176.86.200|01:01, 19 June 2005}}

== Joke is on us? ==
I downloaded the FATAL "sample" last night, thinking that the stuff mentioned in the review was hyperbole and satire and was shocked to find that...well, it actually is in the book.

Going over this in my head for a few hours, I came to the conclusion that this whole thing ''has'' to be a joke. A gag, a put-on, a prank. Seriously, has anyone inquired into this line of thought before?--[[User:Illuminarch|Mike]] 17:31, 31 Jul 2005 (PDT)
:If that's the case, Byron Hall and Burnout are the greatest trolls in the world, hands down. (insert self-aggrandizing claim about their troll bandits having survived to the Twelfth Echelon of Plundering, Both Literal and Figurative) [http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/User:Kalir Kalir] 16:25, 4 August 2009 (PDT)

=2010=
== Simple Point ==
I understand their desire to include every horror imaginable on Earth for "completeness" and "realism", but it's one thing to use rape/abuse/racism as a story-telling mechanic to display suffering and tragedy, and it's another to include a ruleset in order to exploit and benefit from these acts. Yes, rape/abuse/racism occurs and it is real and horrible, but enabling a player to do it doesn't promote any sort of freedom or completeness. Thoughts? [[Special:Contributions/66.212.163.146|66.212.163.146]] 22:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
:Enabling a player to do something doesn't promote freedom? Sounds like BS to me. The more options players have, the more freedom they have. [[User:Tyciol|Tyciol]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 22:29, 7 July 2014 (PDT)

Template:Unsigned

2014-07-08T05:27:58Z

Tyciol: Created page with "—Preceding unsigned comment added by {{{1}}} (talk • contribs) {{{2|}}}'..."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}'''Please use four (4) tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to date & sign your post in the future!'''<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>

Talk:FATALReviewRebuttal

2014-07-08T05:27:17Z

Tyciol:

Hellboy

2012-05-15T08:29:02Z

Tyciol: Created page with "A '''Hellboy''' roleplaying game was made for the 3rd edition GURPS rules. It includes material from the comics and stats for the characters. {{stub}} Category:GURPS"

A '''Hellboy''' roleplaying game was made for the 3rd edition GURPS rules. It includes material from the comics and stats for the characters.
{{stub}}
[[Category:GURPS]]

Prehistoric Era Villains

2008-05-08T01:40:12Z

Tyciol: putting ?s in blank categories to eliminate confusing spacing and indicate a need to add something, correcting expansive spacing overall

=Villain Categories=
==Comic Relief==
===Gadgeteers===
Simple Simon the Pieman is our current Comic Relief Gadgeteer
====Simple Simon====

===Powered Ones===
====?====

===Priests===
====Lynn====
Lynn is our comic relief priest of Aphrodite.

===Robots===
Secret.

====Secret====

===Witches===
====?====

==Villains of a Serious Business==
===Gadgeteers===
====?====

===Powered Ones===
====?====

===Priests===
====?====

===Robots===
Secret.
====Secret====

===Witches===
====?====

=Important Pages=
==[[Prehistoric Era]] Home==
[[Prehistoric Era]].

User talk:Tyciol

2007-03-24T20:31:07Z

Tyciol:

Haven't gamed recently. Does anyone have any good games running? [[User:Tyciol|Tyciol]] 13:31, 24 March 2007 (PDT)

User:Tyciol

2007-03-24T20:30:45Z

Tyciol:

I've played Palladium Books for nearly a decade now, and also had some limited experience with Returner's FFRPG and really think that open sourced Mind's Eye has promise. [[User:Tyciol|Tyciol]] 13:30, 24 March 2007 (PDT)