Angelo.pampalone at 10:21, 10 June 2009

2009-06-10T10:21:41Z

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 *** Initial topic: ... so, what went right?
@@ Line 284: / Line 288: @@
 BethL: (I think I need to bow out with a bad headache.  Night all.  *HUG*  Sorry I can't be more helpful.)<br>
 <br>

BethDragon at 02:30, 9 August 2007

2007-08-09T02:30:29Z

New page

*** Initial topic: ... so, what went right?

Etheric: Well, it may be worth considering... Do we want to start up the new story tonight, seeing as the session will be shortened *and* we'll be skipping two weeks afterward? 
Random_Nerd: Sorry about the delays, guys. 
BethL: I'm really sorry. 
Etheric: It's not a problem. Out of your hands. I'm just posing a question, is all. 
Random_Nerd: Frustratingly, I know for a fact that I could have fixed this in five minutes if it had happened a week later, when I'm up there. 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. 
Random_Nerd: So, instead, discuss where the game is going, or what? 
Etheric: That's basically what I was considering. Having a planning session of some sort. 
Etheric: What do people want to do. I'm good either way. 
Random_Nerd: Oh, and I did have one question. Did you guys find Kudzu solving certain of your problems to seem like a Deus Ex Machina, or to devalue your own efforts to fix things. 
BethL: Maybe check on the various plot threads that we can think of? 
lazarus: we asked him to, didn't we? 
Random_Nerd: True, you did. But I wanted to figure out how you reacted to it. 
BethL: I felt a little frustrated by it but I really couldn't think of any other way to do it without blowing everything and taking a couple of Wounds. 
Random_Nerd: Because, it's, looked at one way, a clumsy GM ploy. 
Etheric: It was at the time a major de-stressor. There was that aspect to it, but as long as we, OOCly, don't become reliant on deus ex macinae, it dshouldn't be a major problem. 
Random_Nerd: Basically, the idea was to show Kudzu's more... well, not human, but /sympathetic/ side. 
BethL: Which was something I wasn't expecting. I was thinking about Theresa asking for help and getting her head bit off about it. 
Random_Nerd: He does care about the chancel, and about the PCs, and even about Monty. 
Random_Nerd: He just has different priorities for them than you guys do. 
Etheric: Actually, wouldn't it be deus ex woodenboxus in this case? 
Random_Nerd: Also, as I saw it, it was a problem that you guys /could/ have solved with a lot of lesser miracles and elbow grease. 
Random_Nerd: He wasn't solving an unsolvable problem, just (for once) making a situation easier rather than harder. 
Knockwood: yeah, but anything we do would be temporary, really... 
BethL: And cause DA. 
Random_Nerd: Temporary why? 
Knockwood: or cause other problems. How would the populace react to a new island just offshore, that's _growing_, and has a humongous rabbit occasionally peeking out? 
Random_Nerd: I imagine you could persuade them to see the upside of it. 
Knockwood: ... OK, at least a moon is, um, distant... 
BethL: Well, like how the roots were only a temporary stop-gap to Monty's hopping. 
BethL: And eventually any island off-shore would have a rabbit with a foot bigger than the distance to shore. 
Random_Nerd: Bah. Time-space. 
Random_Nerd: Give the concept of distance an inch, and it'll take a yard. 
BethL: Talk to Brian. :) 
Knockwood: yeah, but being Nobles, we can yell at him when he does that., 
*** Mode change "+o Knockwood" for channel #Nobilis by Etheric. 
lazarus: Hey, I kinda sorta have control over distance. Maybe, sorta. 
BethL: Oh, one thing I noticed that I mentioned to RN and forgot to mention in here...Consequences knows Luc. 
Random_Nerd: Yeah, but your Distance Trick is crazy-high on DA. 
Random_Nerd: Still, a Chance of Realm or two could fix it. 
Knockwood: "Today, the Pacific shall be only 3 feet wide!" 
BethL: Because Luc was an Anchor to Shadows, one of his Family, before Shadows...I forget how it bit the big one. 
Knockwood: ...actually, if he did that, could we all hop across it? 
lazarus: I want to meet Luc. And yes, I love the sheer amount of DA the distance trick has :) 
Knockwood: y'know, I do wonder about DA... 
Random_Nerd: What about DA? 
Knockwood: Granted, seeing someone pop across an ocean would be weird, but how would it 'reveal the existence of the mythic world'? 
Random_Nerd: It's partly because of how Noble miracles work. 
lazarus: remember what Kudzu keeps saying? "Sanity is a crutch"? Brian's funky-walking removes the crutch from observers ;) 
Random_Nerd: They do them on one side of the divide at once. 
Random_Nerd: A Noble can be acting in the Mythic world, or the Prosaic one, but not both at the same time. 
Random_Nerd: So, it causes stress along the boundery. 
Random_Nerd: The mythic/prosaic divide on Earth is already a strange and unnatural thing. 
Knockwood: in that case, wouldn't an infusion of Hope or Courage come with a side of DA? 
Random_Nerd: So, stuff that puts more stress on it can make perceptions go wonky. 
Random_Nerd: Well, a lot of a human's perceptions are based on his conception of reality. 
Random_Nerd: Hope and Courage are easier to integrate into his reality. 
Random_Nerd: Just seeing something impossible doesn't cause DA. Nor does being affected by any Noble miracle at all. 
Random_Nerd: It's the combination. 
Random_Nerd: Even then, it doesn't always do it. 
Random_Nerd: (As for why Imperators don't cause DA by their actions, they're "really" acting in the Spirit World. And the actions of the Spirit World of the Imperators is the foundation of all reality.) 
Random_Nerd: (Even when an Imperator looks at things mythically or prosaically, they're still rooted in the SW.) 
Random_Nerd: Does this make sense? 
Knockwood: no, but that's Nobilis. :) 
Random_Nerd: Or, to look at it differently... 
BethL: A bit. Trying to grok the acting in one world or other but not both -ness. 
Random_Nerd: The problem is when a Noble miracle happens /above the threshold of perception/ of a human. 
Random_Nerd: When a human gets affected by Theresa's Irresistable, for example... he doesn't perceive anything happening. 
Random_Nerd: The Mythic/Prosaic divide is a thing of perception. 
* Random_Nerd gesticulates and paces. 
BethL: What if you are able to convince the humans that it's a 'magic' trick...does it prevent/reduce the DA? 
Random_Nerd: You're all staring at me like I'm a crazy guy speaking gibberish, aren't you? 
* lazarus gets hit by DA. 
Random_Nerd: That would help, perhaps. It'd mitigate it a bit. 
BethL: Love, this would be different from my usual _how_? *grin* 
Random_Nerd: It'd help keep the part of a human's brain that regulates perception from being too hurt. 
Random_Nerd: On a side note, inducing DA /deliberately/ would be almost trivially easy. 
* Etheric wriggles in his straightjacket. "Not at all, RN. You make perfect sense." He goes back to staring at the ceiling and drooling. 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. Should we work on a different explanation, that we can all understand equally? 
BethL: Pfft. Doing it on purpose wouldn't take effort at all. 
Random_Nerd: We can't drop DA, because it's been involved in the plot in minor but continual ways. 
BethL: A different explanation would be helpful, I think. 
Random_Nerd: But if you guys want, I can make a simpler explanation of it. 
Random_Nerd: Okay, hmm. 
Random_Nerd: Any suggestions? 
BethL: Suggestions in what way? 
Etheric: I think at least that I'm not having any trouble following, but ther's probably a simpler explanation. Maybe... 
Knockwood: (AFK again...) 
Random_Nerd: Okay, who /does/ understand my gnostobabble explanation? 
lazarus: *raises hand* 
* Etheric raises his hand as well. 
BethL: Kinda. I think I do but I'm not sure. 
Random_Nerd: Anyone object to me maintaining this explanation? 
Knockwood: (BAK) 
Random_Nerd: Because, at least, it gives /me/ a useful mental model to use when determining whether or not a given miracle should cause DA. But I can create another model that's still consistant with the game, if that helps. 
Etheric: Well, this is more or less what you've been saying (I think), but when a human sees something that can't be explained according to his worldview (be that Prosaic or Mythic), he becomes aware that something's out of the ordinary. And if a Noble did it, he might notice the effects on both sides of the Prosaic/Mythic divide. As the Noble's actions affect both. The Imperator's miracles on the other hand, only affect Prosaic and Mythic Wo 
Random_Nerd: That cut off at "Prosaic and Mythic Wo" 
Etheric: The Imperator's miracles on the other hand, only affect Prosaic and Mythic Worlds incidentally, so it sort of goes under the human's radar. And now I'm uncertain if that's in any way easier to understand than what Rn said. 
Etheric: Probably not. XD 
Random_Nerd: It's pretty similar, to my reading. 
Etheric: Well, I was just trying to restte what you said more concisely. And I think I failed to make it any clearer in the process. 
BethL: I think I'm getting it now... 
Random_Nerd: An example of the Imperator thing... if an Imperator eats the sun... there's an eclipse. But that's what eclipses /are/. Every time there's a solar eclipse, it means an Imperator just ate the sun. And you can /predict/ these eclipses with astronomy. 
Random_Nerd: Astronomy measures, after all, the processes that govern celestial phenomena. And that's what the whims of the relevant Imperators /are/. 
Random_Nerd: So, dragons periodically eating the sun is right and proper, and when it happens, educated people will just go "Oh, yes, there /was/ supposed to be an eclipse today, wasn't there?" 
Random_Nerd: If a Noble eats the sun, though, (Aspect 8, by the way.), it's not so easy. It's the sun suddenly vanishing without rhyme or reason. 
Random_Nerd: People will go /nuts/. Panic in the streets, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. 
Random_Nerd: Because the Noble isn't tied into reality properly. 
Random_Nerd: Reality doesn't know how to bend itself to deal with the Noble's actions. 
Random_Nerd: Does this make sense? 
Etheric: Seems to. 
BethL: *nod* 
Random_Nerd: (Also, Imperator miracles can be retroactive in a way that almost no Noble miracles are.) 
Random_Nerd: (It's much easier for an Imperator, rather than a Noble, to make a miracle that says "Things are like this, and always have been.") 
Knockwood: so, practical application: Let's say Brian really needs to get across that ocean. He does his one-step thing, lands in the middle of a beach party. 
Random_Nerd: (Reality knows how to respond to Imperators by making them retroactively true. It's like how if the Excrucians gank the Angel of the Moon and destroy the Domain of Moons, there /never were/ moons.) 
BethL: Like a giant green moon with a true rabbit in it? 
Random_Nerd: And you know what? There're myths about green moons and lunar rabbits that go back /centuries/. 
Random_Nerd: Now you know why! 
BethL: (Green moons?) 
Knockwood: (moons made of green cheese.) 
Random_Nerd: (Everyone knows the moon is made of green cheese.) 
Random_Nerd: (And I bet I can find plenty of stories about finding plants on the moon.) 
BethL: Hmm. 
Random_Nerd: So, hmm. 
Random_Nerd: What else needs addressed? 
BethL: In what way? Explanation or just a listing of all we have on our plates? 
Etheric: Well, we need to decide where the next storyline will go... I've proposed making it about the human divine spark thing, but that's just my own preference. 
BethL: Maybe quick onscreen or a mention that we did it off-screen of picking up the missing soldiers? 
Random_Nerd: That's fine with me. Gives me /plenty/ of hooks. 
Knockwood: ah, how about just getting the missing soldiers back so the population likes us again? 
Random_Nerd: Well, why not send one of your various employees to get the soldiers? 
Random_Nerd: If you want to do it offscreen. 
Random_Nerd: You've got various people you can delegate to. 
BethL: What kind of miracles would give Anchors a felt 'authority'? 
Random_Nerd: About seventeen million possible miracles. 
Random_Nerd: Or you could just give them a lot of money and some large guys with weapons to assist them. 
Random_Nerd: That's a good solid way of creating the perception of authority. 
Etheric: Is that seventeen million a scientific estimate, or just a guess? ;p 
BethL: *grin* I wonder how Carrie's mom would handle getting the soldiers back. 
Random_Nerd: Yes. 
Etheric: Thanks for clarifying. 
Random_Nerd: For that matter, if you sent an anchor, you could just do miracles through them when needed. 
Random_Nerd: That sort of thing is what anchors are for, largely. 
Knockwood: depends on how much of a splash we want to make... 
Knockwood: if you think of it, some places might... WHOOPS, Rule Zero. Never mind. :) 
Random_Nerd: Does anyobody have a convincing reason /not/ to take over Mexico just 'cause you're in the area? 
BethL: Well, if we send anchors, we wouldn't be in the area... 
BethL: Plus, we're barely ruling over our own country even with Brian's Beloved gift? 
Random_Nerd: Oh, fine. 
Random_Nerd: It was just a thought. 
Knockwood: also, it'd shake up the prosaic Earth enough that people would oppose us on general principle, and give Exs an avenue of attack? 
Etheric: Yep. I bet there are a few Powers who have bonds to MExico the way Carrie does to America. 
BethL: Yeah, after all, it's not like we were voted in or anything. Just a few people taking over a country. 
BethL: What _does_ keep Nobles from going on protracted ego-trips? 
Etheric: Lord Entropy. 
Random_Nerd: What on /earth/ makes you think Nobles don't go on protracted ego trips? 
Knockwood: Other Nobles. Entropy. Excrucians. Or worse -- eek -- ostracism from the Society of Flowers. 
Etheric: Well, there's a vignette in the GWB about a Metahuman noble who's famous in the Prosaic Earth as "the guy who can do anything." And is assassinated by Entropy. Because he's pushing the boundaries of propriety. 
BethL: I meant of the 'I take over this country because it starts with my favorite letter of the alphabet.' syndrome. 
Random_Nerd: Other Nobles. 
Knockwood: Because that kind of thing is just _so_ gauche. 
BethL: *ponders* 
BethL: What kind of things do you think we would start with with the divine human spark line? 
Etheric: Well, the first thing Carrie would do is a Greater Div of Hope, to give us some sort of cryptic clue as to how to restore the divine potential within humanity. I asume that's within her Estate. 
Knockwood: the Garden of Eden? the graves of miraculous humans? 
Random_Nerd: I can do cryptic. 
Random_Nerd: I'm /good/ at cryptic. 
BethL: Yes You Can. 
Knockwood: we noticed. 
BethL: I know Theresa can't make an Apple but is there anything she could do with the Tree? 
Random_Nerd: Which Tree? 
Etheric: Will we be able to decipher your cryptic-ness, though? But I'll be satisfied as long as it gets us moving in some direction. 
Random_Nerd: My crypticness always makes sense, eventually. 
Random_Nerd: At least, if the game lasts long enough. 
BethL: RN - either Tree, but I'm thinking the Tree of Knowledge. 
Etheric: The Dark enChanceled Eden, remember. 
Random_Nerd: Yep. 
Random_Nerd: The very first Darklord did, in fact. 
Random_Nerd: So, accessing it... isn't exactly easy., 
BethL: Oh. Yeah. Huh. 
Etheric: You know, that brings up something that I'd like to ask about. 
Knockwood: couldn't Theresa do a GDiv and find both the Apple and the Tree? 
Etheric: Chancelss were invented to deal with the Excrucians, right? 
Etheric: But we know they were in scattered use even before the Third Age, so... What's up with that? 
Etheric: Knock: Reminds me of my very first Nobilis game, where our Lightlord Imperator has the Apple from Eden locked away, next to a tree. Which isn't the same tree, but a different one. 
Random_Nerd: Well, she could find where it is, unless it's protected in some way. 
Random_Nerd: The Apple's already been eaten. 
BethL: It was a Honeycrisp. 
Etheric: Pardon? 
Random_Nerd: A particular kind of apple. Really tasty. 
BethL: Sorry. :) There's a new variety of apple out called the Honeycrisp. Very sweet and crispy and people go nuts over it, around here at least. 
Etheric: Ah. 
Knockwood: hm... what would happen if that actually was the kind that The Apple was? 
Random_Nerd: I have no idea. 
Random_Nerd: Could be interesting. 
Random_Nerd: If it is, I'm sure the Botanists are involved. 
Knockwood: ... who we haven't met. 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. Now, to deal with the Human Spark issue, there's a list of people or types of people you'll probably have to meet and learn about. 
BethL: Haven't really found that much out about the cult either. 
lazarus: Beth: don't worry, the Botanists probably know about you. 
BethL: Yeah, but it doesn't mean they'd be _nice_...probably wouldn't even fall down and worship me. *sniff* 
Knockwood: bring Red over 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. The First Lord, the original lightlord, Manaechus, Sennacharib... 
Random_Nerd: The Botanists. 
BethL: Nah, they'd just worship him, confuse him and scare his cows. 
Random_Nerd: A Splinter and a Domination, from Dionyl. 
Random_Nerd: Those Angels originally responsible for humanity. 
Random_Nerd: Probably some Serpents, to see the only natural biological Impereal race. 
Random_Nerd: Oh, and maybe Lucifer, since the two Falls were linked. 
Random_Nerd: Am I forgetting anyone obvious? 
Etheric: Hum. 
Etheric: Why Sennacharib? I could understand if it was the Mythic/Prosaic split we were dealing with. 
Knockwood: the prior Courage... 
Random_Nerd: There are hints, in my game, that the two are connected. 
Knockwood: or, possibly, all our previous incarnations 
Etheric: Ah. Blame me for missing those hints. XD 
Random_Nerd: For instance, the Dionyl fall, which is parallel to the human one, was related to their own equivilent split. 
Random_Nerd: I'm almost sure that Kudzu said that, and I think the Library suggested it too. 
Random_Nerd: Because the Dionyl are a race in the same situation as humans, and /their/ fall, which happened at the same time and also generated two "species" of Imperator, was linked to worldperceptual issues. 
BethL: I know that the split was related to something but I had forgotten what. 
Etheric: Oh -- assuming that it's the Fourth Age turning that will resovle things, Ananda almost certainly must be involved. 
Random_Nerd: Oh, of course. 
Etheric: And, potentially, what's-her-name the Wildlord Lady of the Third Age. 
Random_Nerd: Splintering is the drive for all beings to have seperate "worlds" in the way that the Earth now has two worlds. Domination is the drive for all beings to share the same perceptual world. 
Random_Nerd: What does the Third Age have to do with the Fall? 
Etheric: Just was thinking that if it's the Third Age turning to Fourth that is to ultimately restore humanity, the Imperators of the Third and Fourth Ages may be connected. 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. 
BethL: *ponders what it means that a Wildlord is in charge of the Third Age* 
Etheric: I may be reading too much into it. 
Random_Nerd: For that matter, you guys had wanted to research the Lost Hundred Years, hadn't you? 
Etheric: But, by that same logic, Jan Ben Jan would be good to get ahold of, since his age was *triggered* by the event we want to reverse. 
Random_Nerd: True. He's also important, I imagine. 
Etheric: I had intended to check it out in the Library but had no far-reaching plans. 
Random_Nerd: (The third age was the beginning of the assaults of the Excrucians. Wildlords are, basically, Excrucians.) 
Knockwood: Hundred? I thought it was 500 
Random_Nerd: That's what I meant. 
Etheric: (which I dispute is canon, but, in RN's game, it is truth.) 
Random_Nerd: Sorry, brainlapse. 
Random_Nerd: (Dispute is canon why? It's right there in the timeline and everything.) 
Etheric: (The Wildlords being excrucians is in the *timeline?* I don't remember that.) 
* Etheric searches for his GWB 
Random_Nerd: (Oh, well, they're from Outside.) 
Random_Nerd: (I thought you meant the Lost Five Hundred Years.) 
Random_Nerd: Excrucians and Wildlords, to me, seem to have a common origin and nature. 
Etheric: (Ah.) 
Random_Nerd: Would you agree, at least, that they're as similar to each other as Angels and Fallen Angels are to each other? 
Etheric: I would disagree with that. The Lands Beyond Creation are a big place. Heaven is unified, the Lands Beyond Creation... aren't. 
Etheric: So, I'd say that while it might appear that way, I wouldn't have it be true in my game. 
Etheric: Of course, in your game you decide what mysteries are true. 
Etheric: I have no objection to that. 
Random_Nerd: Well, at least for the purposes of my game, the Wildlords and the Excrucians have a common origin. 
* Etheric nods. 
BethL: Which is why Kudzu is so touchy about it? 
Etheric: Personally, I look at the Excrucians as something fundamentally different from an Imperator. 
Random_Nerd: Partly. 
Random_Nerd: Hmm. How would you classify Mimics, Etheric? 
Etheric: I'd call them Excrucians because their polarity has been reversed. 
Etheric: They on't actually create things by existing anymore. 
Random_Nerd: Actually, their nature hasn't been reverse. 
Random_Nerd: Err, reversed. 
Random_Nerd: Mimics are the ones that /haven't/ been Excruciated. 
Random_Nerd: Dead Imperators that undergo the full Rite of Excruciation become regular Excrucians. 
Random_Nerd: Mimics are the ones that have been turned, but not fully changed. 
Etheric: Hum. Page reference? I thought the only kind of Excrucian an Imperatro could become was a Mimic. 
Random_Nerd: 201. 
Random_Nerd: GWB. 
Etheric: Ah, you're right. 
Etheric: I misread the passage. 
Random_Nerd: The Rite of Excruciation converts the energy of a dead Imperator to that of an Excrucian, but Mimics are the ones that haven't been fully Excruciated, due to a lack of time or opportunity. 
Random_Nerd: No biggie. It's an awfully obscure point. 
Random_Nerd: But in metaphysical terms, Mimics are Imperators. 
* Etheric nods. 
Random_Nerd: They have Estates. They can enchancel themselves, and they have Nobles rather than Shards. 
Etheric: Looks like it, as I reread the passage. 
Random_Nerd: To my mind, the Mimics are the counterpart of the Wildlords. 
* Etheric nods. 
Random_Nerd: Mimics are Imperators that serve the Outside. Wildlords are "Excrucians" that serve Creation. 
Etheric: I can see that line of reasoning. 
Random_Nerd: What do the rest of you think? 
Knockwood: hm... 
BethL: (I think I need to bow out with a bad headache. Night all. *HUG* Sorry I can't be more helpful.)

Session 43.5 - Revision history

Angelo.pampalone at 10:21, 10 June 2009

BethDragon at 02:30, 9 August 2007