Difference between revisions of "SatCoC player Bill"

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<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rob Donoghue</cite>
 
Realistically, I'd be shocked if they didn't just make new classes.  One of the interesting things about 4e is that because classes are so power driven, it is much easier to create new magical classes than new martial ones, if only because the special effects are much easier to justify.  This dovetails really well with the core principal of Earthdawn that all PC's are magic users, even if they're not necessarily spellcasters.  (For those unfamiliar with this idea, it means the fighting guy is magically fighty, the sneaky guy is magically sneaky and so on)..</blockquote>
 
 
 
I've talked about these ideas a great deal for Earthdawn between the threads I pitched for translating Earthdawn on RPGnet and talking to some of my players about the idea...  we came to a couple of ideas on these things.  It's only in our opinions, I could totally be happy if they go another way - these ideas just seem like the most simple or clean way to go.
 
 
 
I came to the conclusion that overall when translating Earthdawn to D&D4 the most clean thing you could do would be to choose your "battles" or rather pick the points that you think will make the best bang for your buck to design from the ground up.  From my perspective there are many things that you can translate into D&D4 terms that donot "shoehorn" but rather fit nicely into the D&D4 scheme without sacrificing any Earthdawn COOL...  with that here are my thoughts...
 
 
On making new classes.
 
While I know classes could be a neat "bang" to create from scratch, I'd suggest that it might be easier for players NEW to Earthdawn to go with using the D&D4 classes straight-away and building "Build Options" into each Class as written in D&D4.  For example:  looking at the RANGER class, D&D4 lists the Build Options: Archer ranger, two-blade ranger.  These are basically suggestions to maximize utility and give new players a hint at building their character. 
 
So rather than make brand new classes for Earthdawn, I'd suggest that you might build the Earthdawn Disciplines as new "Build Options" under the existing classes.  We've noted several of these on the RPGnet thread but the perfect example for Earthdawn is RANGER: Build Option: Archer.  and so on...
 
 
What about Earthdawn's uniqueness you say?
 
My thought is that building Disciplines as Build Options keeps the connection to Earthdawn but allows non-Earthdawn folks to immediately understand the options for Player Classes without the learning curve.  The uniqueness comes back in full swing with the NEW powers you could build within each class to choose from that stack on top of the standard class options.  So rather than building a bunch of brand new classes, you'd just have simple additions that would minimize the learning curve yet still remain true to Earthdawn.
 
 
 
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rob Donoghue</cite>
 
This, in turn, is one of the reasons this is such a great approach for Earthdawn. Because they have such solid IP, they can practically build the game from the ground up, and if they're feeling ambitious they could do it from scratch. That is, they could make a game that is less grid dependent or with different roles than the default for D&D, since those things really emerge from the way the powers are designed.  Of course,  whether or not that's how they want to approach it is totally up to them.</blockquote>
 
 
 
True regarding the solid IP, but for the target market do you really think the idea is to diverge so much from D&D4's standard approach?  I understand that one of the big negatives D&D4-haters note is the reliance on the grid and tactics...  but I maintain that this bit of the system does not dictate play style... with the D&D4 rules you can still get a great flavorful role-play from the style of Earthdawn either though you use the excellent tactic systems of D&D4.  So I don't think building the game from the ground up is at all necessary.
 
I doubt RedBrick's point of going with the Age of Legend for D&D4 is to make a new revolutionary "fix" to D&D4,  because -frankly- D&D4 isn't broken.  I feel that their goal is to expand Earthdawn's appeal into a more mass market of new-comers that are drawn in for the new excitement of D&D4  combined with those that are in the hobby that have never tried Earthdawn but are interested in a new cool setting for D&D  combined with those that know Earthdawn and love the new D&D4.
 
I doubt that RedBrick is looking to make a new game - but rather take a great game and give options that make the flavor sprinkle that is distinctly Earthdawn.  Hence my thought on choosing the "bang" points that make up new rule points whole cloth vs. making great new additions on the top of current D&D4 standard rules.
 
 
 
To me, making new classes for the Disciplines isn't one of those "bang" points. But making new powers to fit the class build options would be.  But again - I don't see that it couldn't be.  I'd be happy either way.
 
 
 
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rob Donoghue</cite>
 
PS - And yeah, the levelled magic items really point very clearly to how trivial Earthdawn style magic items  this would be to implement.</blockquote>
 
 
 
Unlike my thought on creating Disciplines as "Build Options" HERE is where I think new addition Earthdawn rules could really make a BANG.  Whereas the core classes might be one of the areas that you'd want to leave "clean" (rather than making all new classes)  -  since Classes are such a staple of D&D4 core.  Magic Items are a COOL point that aren't an "out in front" rule that could be exploited for full on ground up creation of new unique rules for Earthdawn.
 
 
I'd theorized that you could take the existing D&D4 magic item rules and build onto that "level up" idea that they hint at, creating the unique flavor for Earthdawn legends.  For Example...
 
 
There are no "Craft" skills in D&D4 anymore.  I've noted in another thread point that I don't feel creating a new skill for Crafting is important enough to alter since D&D4 clearly suggests that things that aren't "important" enough for players to worry about should be "hand-waved" until it becomes obvious the game needs to deal with it.  That can be seen with this note on encumberance rules:
 
 
"Adventurers carry a lot of gear. When that quantity becomes extreme, it might be enough to slow you down and otherwise hamper your capabilities. The amount you carry should rarely be an issue, and you don’t need to calculate the weight your character is hauling around unless it’s likely to matter."  --PHB p.222
 
 
Likewise I'd suppose that Crafting and other skills that have been culled from D&D4 can/should be thoguht of in this way. 
 
For Earthdawn I understand Crafting Skill's importance but I'd suggest that adding a new skill would be a stop-gap that isn't the best solution.  In fact SINCE crafting is so very important, I'd suggest that it be treated with the relevance it deserves by using other GREAT rules of D&D4 to caputure the importance and flavor necessary for Earthdawn.  It also allows players of D&D4 to consider new interesting ways to USE the standard D&D4 rules they might not have considered before -  as opposed just having a new "Craft" skill bypasses that creative solution and short-cuts the problem.
 
 
So... what rules am I talking about for Crafting that is so important in identifying non-Horror tainted folk as well as the "Thread Weaving" for determining the Legends and Names behind magical items?
 
D&D4's RITUAL and SKILL CHALLENGE rules!
 
 
Both could be used in interesting ways for a combination that would answer both problems uniquely for Earthdawn as well as taking an existing cool point in the D&D4 rules and giving players unfamiliar with Earthdawn a new spin on using D&D4 rules they might not have considered otherwise.
 
 
Skill Challenges would elevate the cool factor of the need for proving that you're not a Horror by doing a crafting project  OR  on the other side for a PC watching an NPC to see if they are a Horror making it an "encounter" rather than a simple one-roll check...  which inherently deflates the drama/excitement of the situation and importance of investigating someone's being able to craft or proving that you can craft  -  and are NOT Horror tainted.
 
The Ritual rules could be mixed in as a part of the Skill Challenge by making the Ritual rules into a unique translation of "Craft" rules. 
 
 
Okay...  since I seem to have gone into a "preachy - here's my idea" point...  (unintentionally)  I'll wrap up with an example to show what I'm talking about...  That'll be next post after I create on... heheh...  fun fun.
 
 
 
I'm always open to ideas though.  I'm never one to say "my way" is the right way when/if someone has a better solution.  these are just my opinions until "the group" finds a better solution.  In this case "the group" being all us fans excited for RedBrick and Earthdawn!  This'll also be a NICE help (for me and my group)  if we end up trying to play an Earthdawn campaign before RedBrick publishes Earthdawn for D&D4 - unless my group were to be part of the playtest gang!  (crossing fingers!)  hehheheheh...
 
 
thoughts?
 
-kev-
 
 
 
 
Skill Challenges
 
A skill challenge is an encounter in which your skills,
 
rather than your combat abilities, take center stage.
 
In contrast to an obstacle that requires one successful
 
skill check, a skill challenge is a complex situation in
 
which you must make several successful checks, often
 
using a variety of skills, before you can claim success
 
in the encounter.
 
The Dungeon Master’s Guide contains rules for skill
 
challenges, and each encounter has its own guidelines
 
and requirements. In one skill challenge, you
 
might use a Diplomacy check to entreat a duke to
 
send soldiers into a mountain pass, a History check
 
to remind him what happened when his ancestors
 
neglected the pass’s defense, and an Insight check
 
to realize that having your fighter companion lean
 
on the duke with an Intimidate check wouldn’t help
 
your cause. In another skill challenge, you might use
 
Nature checks and Perception checks to track cultists
 
through a jungle, a Religion check to predict a likely
 
spot for their hidden temple, and an Endurance check
 
to fight off the effects of illness and exhaustion over
 
the course of days in the jungle.
 
Whatever the details of a skill challenge, the basic
 
structure of a skill challenge is straightforward. Your
 
goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories
 
(usually in the form of successful skill checks) before
 
you get too many defeats (failed checks). It’s up to you
 
to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the
 
challenges you face.
 
 
Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers,
 
and your own wits (not your character’s), although
 
sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well.
 
Such encounters include dealing with traps and
 
hazards, solving puzzles, and a broad category of situations
 
called skill challenges.
 
A skill challenge occurs when exploration (page
 
260) or social interaction becomes an encounter, with
 
serious consequences for success or failure. When
 
you’re making your way through a dungeon or across
 
the trackless wilderness, you typically don’t take turns
 
or make checks. But when you spring a trap or face a
 
serious obstacle or hazard, you’re in a skill challenge.
 
When you try to persuade a dragon to help you against
 
an oncoming orc horde, you’re also in a skill challenge.
 
In a skill challenge, your goal is to accumulate
 
a certain number of successful skill checks before
 
rolling too many failures. Powers you use might give
 
you bonuses on your checks, make some checks
 
unnecessary, or otherwise help you through the challenge.
 
Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by
 
describing the obstacle you face and giving you some
 
idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then
 
you describe your actions and make checks until you
 
either successfully complete the challenge or fail.
 
Chapter 5 describes the sorts of things you can
 
attempt with your skills in a skill challenge. You can use
 
a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to
 
Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers
 
and ability checks. The Dungeon Master’s Guide contains
 
rules for designing and running skill challenges.
 
 
An audience with the duke, a mysterious set of sigils
 
in a hidden chamber, finding your way through the
 
Forest of Neverlight—all of these present challenges
 
that test both the characters and the people who play
 
them. The difference between a combat challenge and
 
a skill challenge isn’t the presence or absence of physical
 
risk, nor the presence or absence of attack rolls and
 
damage rolls and power use. The difference is in how
 
the encounter treats PC actions.
 
Skill challenges can account for all the action in
 
a particular encounter, or they can be used as part
 
of a combat encounter to add variety and a sense of
 
urgency to the proceedings.
 
The Basics
 
To deal with a skill challenge, the player characters
 
make skill checks to accumulate a number of successful
 
skill uses before they rack up too many failures and
 
end the encounter.
 
Example: The PCs seek a temple in dense jungle.
 
Achieving six successes means they find their way.
 
Accruing three failures before achieving the successes,
 
however, indicates that they get themselves hopelessly
 
lost in the wilderness.
 
 
Rituals are complex ceremonies that create
 
magic effects. You don’t memorize or prepare a ritual;
 
a ritual is so long and complex that no one could
 
ever commit the whole thing to memory. To perform
 
a ritual, you need to read from a book or a scroll
 
containing it.
 
A ritual book contains one or more rituals that you
 
can use as often and as many times as you like, as
 
long as you can spare the time and the components to perform the ritual.
 
A ritual scroll contains a single ritual, and you can perform the ritual from that scroll only once. After that, the magic contained in the scroll is expended, and the scroll turns to dust. Anyone can use a ritual scroll to perform the ritual it contains, as long as the appropriate components are expended.
 
 
 
Before you can perform a ritual, you need to acquire a ritual book that contains it and master the ritual, or you need to acquire a ritual scroll.
 
 
Owning a ritual book isn’t enough to let you performthe ritual or rituals in it. You must first master a ritual by studying it for 8 uninterrupted hours. (If you gained a ritual by creating its book yourself or by obtaining it as a class feature, you have already mastered it.) You must meet two requirements to master a ritual. You must have the Ritual Caster feat (clerics and wizards get this feat at 1st level), and your level must equal or exceed the ritual’s level. If you meet those requirements and spend 8 hours studying a ritual, you can add it to your list of mastered rituals. As long as you have the ritual’s book handy, you can perform a mastered ritual whenever you want. There’s no limit to the number of rituals you can master.
 
 
To perform a ritual that you have mastered, you spend a certain amount of time (specified in the ritual description) performing various actions appropriate to the ritual. The actions might include reading long passages out of the ritual book, scribing complex diagrams on the ground, burning special incense or sprinkling mystic reagents at appropriate times, or performing a long set of meticulous gestures. The specific activities required aren’t described in most ritual descriptions; they’re left to your imagination.
 
A ritual requires certain esoteric components, which you purchase before you perform the ritual and which are expended when the ritual is complete. Each ritual specifies the cost of the components you need. If a ritual requires a skill check, the check usually determines the ritual’s effectiveness. Even if the check result is low, a ritual usually succeeds, but if the result is high, you can usually achieve better effects.
 
 
Assisting in a Ritual
 
Unless a ritual specifies otherwise, up to four of your allies can help you perform a ritual. Everyone assisting you must be within 5 squares of you, and each assistant must actively participate in the ritual for the entire time required to complete it. Your assistants need neither the Ritual Caster feat nor knowledge of the specific ritual.
 
Your allies can assist you in two ways. First, if the ritual requires spending healing surges or some other resource, willing allies can contribute those resources. (Certain rituals might allow unwilling participants to pay those costs as well, but such rituals involve sacrifices to malevolent gods or demon lords and are not found in the ritual books of most player characters.) Second, your allies can assist with the skill check you make to complete a ritual, using the normal rules for cooperating on another character’s skill check (page 179).
 
 
Key Skill
 
A ritual’s key skill determines the type of components required to perform the ritual, and if a ritual requires a skill check, the key skill is used for the check. If this entry ends with “(no check),” then the ritual does not require a skill check.
 
If a ritual has more than one key skill, you choose which skill to use. Your choice determines both the components you use and the skill you use for any checks required by the ritual.
 
Unless a ritual’s description says otherwise, you make your skill check when you finish performing a ritual. You can’t take 10 on one of these skill checks.
 
 
 
Brew Potion
 
Liquids brew and bubble, coalescing the raw substance of magic into a form you can drink.
 
Level: 5
 
Category: Creation
 
Time: 1 hour
 
Duration: Permanent until consumed
 
Component Cost: Special
 
Market Price: 75 gp
 
Key Skill: Arcana or Religion (no check)
 
You create a potion or an elixir (see page 255) of your level or lower. The ritual’s component cost is equal to the price of the potion or the elixir you create.
 
 
 
Discovering Secret Lore
 
Your knowledge has failed you. Time to research the answer to the mystery before you.
 
 
In this skill challenge, PCs try to learn more about a clue they’ve discovered during their adventures. It involves research in local libraries and attempts to gather information from sages and other scholars. The challenge might take a matter of minutes, hours, or even days for particularly complex or obscure clues.
 
 
Setup: To find the information they need, the PCs must search libraries and consult with loremasters.
 
 
Level: Equal to the level of the party.
 
Complexity: 3 (requires 8 successes before 4 failures).
 
 
Primary Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Religion.
 
 
Arcana (moderate DCs): You visit libraries and sift through vast stacks of lore in search of a useful clue. Success brings the research one step closer to fruition. Failure indicates that this particular line of research ran into a dead end.
 
 
Diplomacy (moderate DCs): You visit a sage or scholar, hoping to curry favor and learn a useful bit of information that will bring you one step closer to discovering the secret lore. This approach requires a character to spend gold pieces equal to the level of the challenge °— 100. You pay the cost, whether the check results in a success or a failure. A success provides a +2 bonus to the next Arcana check or Religion check, as well as counting as a success for completing the challenge. A failure likewise provides a –2 penalty, as well as counting toward the completion of the challenge.
 
 
Religion (moderate DCs): You delve into religious lore or seek omens and the counsel of priests to further your research. Success brings the research one step closer to fruition. Failure indicates that this particular line of research ran into a dead end.
 
 
Success: The PCs solve the riddle or otherwise gain the information they need.
 
 
Failure: The PCs uncover flawed or incomplete information. As they proceed forward, they operate at a disadvantage. Perhaps they find the wrong answer to a riddle, causing a trap to detonate or cutting off the aid they could have gotten from a magic item or ritual.  Or they might translate the lore incorrectly, leading to all kinds of mistakes and misadventures as they otherwise work to complete their quest.
 

Revision as of 12:39, 10 July 2008