SatCoC player Bill

where are all those orks talked about? Again - my group has been going with the info detailed primarily in the ED core book and in that book only the Scorchers are really prominent as any sort of "group" of orks.

Denizens of Earthdawn Volume One: Elves, pp.6-31; Humans, pp.32-51; T'skrang, pp.52-78; Windlings, pp.79-99

Denizens of Earthdawn Volume Two: Dwarfs, pp.6-22; Obsidimen, pp.23-57; Orks, pp.58-70; Trolls, pp.71-98

There's population breakdowns for some of the more important cities. Here's the one for Throal, for example. Dwarf 44% Elf 7% Human 15% Obsidiman handful Ork 25% T’skrang 1% Troll 8% Windling handful

ou might also want to check the tables somewhere at the beginning of your Barsaive Boxed set (I don't know if we got them in EDClassic). The Boxed Set is a good read on some of the more interesting points in general (alternatively, it's all in the Gamemaster's Compendium).

Note: while you might have said "go read that book / it's in that book" isn't all that helpful an answer, you got to realize that we can't explain it to you better than the books, or got the time to paraphrase large chunks of the books.

Quote So - question... If orks don't have any sort of natural ability on mounts - why are they ork scorchers? Why aren't there any other super well known cavalrymen?

short answer: historical development, building modern societies based on ancient legends, the lack of any other way to get some food oin the table. The name "Scorcher" itself comes from an acient incident where the orks burned their own as well as a troll and human army on a field of lava by summoning fire spirits, and the ork, troll, and human kingdoms went down after this. Only later did "Scorcher" become related to bandits and raiders.

It's not that the Orks make for great Cavalrymen, as much as they're the noisy ones. Everyone hears about the criminals more than the police, regardless of numbers. Orks, because of their relatively recent release from being considered a race of slaves, tend to be slightly more tribal in nature than most, (not that there aren't lots of tribes of other races). Those orks that took to raiding and pillaging found it significantly easier to do so with mounts. So those orks, in my opinion, are the vocal minority. They make a lot of noise, and earn a big name for themselves, but that doesn't mean that they personify what an ork truly is.

The same goes for Troll Crystal Raiders. Pillaging is a way of life for them (because the barren mountains yield little they can collect on their own), and because they tend to live in the Twilight Peaks, they tend to use Airships/Drakkars to aid in their pillaging. But there are a lot of lowland trolls as well, many of which have never been on an airship and who don't consider pillaging as much of a way of life. But their size and their dedication to honor is part of every troll.

Once again, things like this where many of a race tend towards a certain lifestyle seems to me the perfect opportunity for a racial Paragon Path. Referencing one of the previous posts, it allows a Troll Wizard to become a Troll Wizard Crystal Raider. His character may already show tendencies and attitudes towards that at first level, but he's primarily a Wizard (who might have spells helping with the Raiding). After enough training, he can pick up some of the special abilities of a Crystal Raider. (That is if we allow Controllers to take the Crystal Raider PP; they tend to be more of a Defender or Striker role, imo)

So, what is the benefit for players whose characters are in another situation? What's the benefit they gain? You're not talking about some arbitrary thing as proficiency in a couple of weapons here. It's the kind of trait that you don't hand out by the dozen. And if every race only gets, say, only three of them, you've just wasted one on one character concept out of a hundred, and 99 concepts won't gain some ability that is of use for everyone for the sake of keeping in line with "there are lots of ork scorchers in BArsaive and it is a prominent feature in the province".

Yes, yes, doesn't harm to have it. Doesn't limit them. Nobody said it limited them, we're saying you're focusing them too much. Look at elves, daerves, and humans and you'll see that every major trait they get benefits all class picks, more than something like mounted combat would. Imagine you'd give elves Far Shot for free, or dwarves Weapon Focus Hammers. Because that's essentially what you're doing.

Quote As for ork culture… page numbers help far more than any efforts to summarize or explain things. Please, help us save time and more will get done.

What do you expect to find on a page someone refers you to? That it says "orks aren't natural born riders"? It's not how it works. If you want a feel for orks, you got to read about a hundred pages of material that only tells you what they do, not what they don't do. You got to say goodbye to any way of thinking along the lines of "race X does Y, as a rule" in Earthdawn. If you want to know anything about what orks are really like, you got to read what James said, and best Cara Fahd Sourcebook right up next, and all the bits on orks in Throal: the Dwarf Kingdom.

Quote from: Denizens2 On the Three Ways of Orks We orks call city living, raiding, and life in the cavalry the Three Ways, though most orks call their own way of life the One Way. These divisions are stupid and misleading— I myself at one time or another have followed all three paths. But many orks divide our race this way, so you should know what they’re talking about even though they’re full of quaalz. Full of quaalz? That means stupid, foolish, thickheaded idiots. They’re full of quaalz because cavalrymen and raiders call each other “uncivilized” and both heap scorn on the city ork. But neither of what you’d call “ork scorchers,” the cavalry or the raiders, is any kind of ancient tradition! Go back four generations and every ork was as “civilized” as any dwarf. You look puzzled, boy. Imagine the time just before the Scourge. Word had spread that anyone who wanted to survive had to build kaers or turn their cities into citadels. Orks were among the first to throw themselves into the hard work of building. Name a kaer that survived, big or small, and you can bet orkish backs bent to build it. In exchange for their labor, the orks got the right to take refuge in the kaers. Suddenly orks who might have been fearless stajian riders with red-stained blades became builders instead. Once in the kaers, orks spent four centuries underground, with nary a mount to ride or battlefield to fill. That’s twenty generations! And I look at my children and grandchildren and can’t figure them out, they’ve got so many different ideas of what an ork should be! Think about it, boy—the orks in the kaers went through dozens of ways of thinking and living, but none of them involved making war. Who’s going to make war in a big cave underground? Maybe they remembered fierce warriors, but more likely somebody just invented those memories. The generation that could finally leave the kaers must have loved the stories of the raiders and fighters, and so they rounded up some mounts and took up the “ancient ways” they’d just invented! In some ways, though, it doesn’t matter how ork scorchers began. The way of the Cavalrymen and raiders fits our world today. With all this land to fill in a dangerous world where an ork can win glory with a sword, the day of mercenaries and raiders is here. When times change and the trail to power lies somewhere else, you can bet the swiftly moving feet of orks will trample it first. You see now, why the rivalry between the Cavalryman and the raider is so stupid? But just try to explain the truth to either pack of thickheads and you’d best get ready to parry a few blows. The raider thinks he’s following the ancient ways of the first orks and believes the Cavalryman is selling out to the other Name-givers who enslaved us. Me, I ask what the raider thinks his great grandsires were doing in the kaers with all those other races. And the Cavalryman, he finds the “primitive” ways of the raiders embarrassing. Well I’ve fought with and against both kinds of ork warrior, and I can tell you that when he’s standing over you, ready to crush your head with a flail, the Cavalryman is no less primitive than the raider. Full of quaalz, both of ‘em. The city ork, him the “great warriors” despise, lives a way more like the way most orks lived for centuries. You know who I mean, little elf—I mean orks who live in towns and villages with other Name-giver races. These orks came out from the kaers, built houses, and kept on living with the same families they’d called neighbors all along, carrying on whatever trade they’d practiced underground. Truth be told, most orks are city orks and don’t care a gob of spit for all this quaalz about how a “true ork” should act. City ork, he wants to get ahead and get along with his neighbors. He’ll call humans, dwarfs, or anyone else, his friends—if they let him. There’s a hurtful truth for you, boy. No city dweller can forget he’s an ork for long. He takes too much quaalz from others, who still look at him and see an ugly brute fit only for dumb labor, or who quake in fear as he passes. And look at the magistrates of any city. How many orks do you see? A handful, maybe. There are more orks in Barsaive than any other race except dwarfs—in a century we’ll outbreed them! Yet still we’re less than any other Name-giver race in Barsaive! No wonder, is it, that even the meekest ork shop clerk dreams of running with the raiders, of smashing his boss’ face and burning his business to the ground. No matter how many of us prove ourselves better than the rest of you, we’ll get the short end of the sword. Understand now, boy, why orks have short tempers and long, vengeful memories? You other Name-givers are like the cavalry and the raiders— you need someone to look down on. And we’re it, for no good reason except that it has always been that way. You look on us and see the worst things about yourselves. Despising us makes you feel better, but we orks are tired of it. Someday you will recognize our achievements—or we will make you eat them. So don’t scratch your head in wonder when an ork you meet gives you a wary look, when he assumes your laugh is aimed at him, when he treats your offer of friendship with scorn. We orks make our own hasty judgments about other races—we learned that from you.