Editing Talk:TROS in the Hammer:Setting Political

Please post any comments you might have here. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 08:02, 23 August 2006 (PDT)
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Justin had a bunch of questions - here are the answers.
1)  loyalty towards the tribe --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 13:48, 23 August 2006 (PDT)spirit?  With 'living and breathing' spirits communicating to the tribes, I'm guessing some kind of loyalty will be required both towards our 'protectors and guides' of an equal level as towards the shaman and circle of leaders...  When confronted with another spirit - Say Pete's Character - would there not be superstitious hostility towards it?  Game wise,  are we all ok with some level of interpersonal conflict that may arise from this situation?  (I am ok with it... It's only a game after all, pretty sure you are, you narritivist freak! But is pete/vic ok with that?)

: Each tribe has a tribe spirit?  Thats fine with me, sort of a main totem/god for that tribe.  Cool.  Pete's character is NOT one of these, though; he is a personal servant type spirit.  Chances are any one of the People would recognize Pete for what he is (unless he is disguised somehow).  It would be wise to be suspicious of ANY spirit you do not know or who has not been contacted/anchored by a shaman you trust.  I would say if there is NOT some interpersonal conflict  on this issue, we aren't having fun. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:42, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

::Sorry, I had just assumed that all tribes would have their own totem, with their own spirit attached to each.  Hence the huge affront caused when Vic stole the totem that housed Pete's Spirit.  I suppose we don't have to play it with every tribe/clan having it's own protector spirit.  It really doesn't matter all that much to me. --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 11:30, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

:::No sorry, I think it is a cool idea...lets use it, at least among the people.  If and when the other tribe realizes Pete has been stolen, they will be pissed off, but not as in "They stole our god!" and more like "They stole one of our cool things!"[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 12:30, 23 August 2006 (PDT)
  
2)  can we talk to our spirit guides, can we get our own spirit guides, will there be any real world tangible impact should a spirit guide get banished?  Does the Tribe become unlucky for example?

: If each tribe has its own totem/god spirit, then destroying the anchors to that powerful spirit would certainly deal a major blow to that spirit.  I don't have the rules written yet for how a shaman deals with spirits, but any spirit powerful enough to serve as a totem/god is pretty darn hard to contact, and losing the ancestral anchors would be a big deal.  As to game mechanical effects of a totem/god spirit for the tribe; probably macro things, like assistance with crops/hunting, assitance in battle, etc.  Individual level game mechanical effects would be rare.  As to getting your own spirit, well, Vic's character has one, so we know at least one method; theft. :) [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:42, 23 August 2006 (PDT)
: As to talking with spirits...you can talk to any anchored, or embodied spirit that can speak a human language (generally any spirit that has at least three qualities might be communicative).  In the case of embodied spirits, you just talk to their body, no matter how strange it may be.  In the case of anchored spirits, you talk to them through their anchors; the exact method will vary depending on the form of the anchor.  In the case of contacted spirits, only a shaman can speak with them.  Notional spirits are, well, notional, and can't be communicated with at all.  I'll add this stuff to the actual page. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:46, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

3)  there's a 4th option for the destiny of the people.  Much like how the Mongols managed to insert themselves into Chinese culture and basically start a dynasty, the same 'could' happen with the people. Take over Empire 1, supplant the existing leadership with leadership from the people etc. etc... :)

: Sounds good to me. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:42, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

4)  if the land is rich in minerals, wouldn't empire 1 just have 'assimilated' us, taken over the land for themselves, and pushed the people onto reservations for example... 

: Empire 1 finds it much easier to make one tribe responsible (and paying them with favours and other stuff) for getting the metal delivered on time, stationing a few regiments of troops near the mines, and just generally telling the People "as long as the iron keeps flowing, we'll leave you alone, but miss one shipment and will slaughter a village or two".  Empire 1 is not an empire of colonists; they have no desire to live outside their own lands.  They just want other peoples stuff to pad their own nests, and will take whatever steps are necessary to keep the stuff flowing. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:42, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

5)  will there be monsters? 

: If by monsters you mean things like beholders, ogres, etc., then probably not.  If by monsters you mean animals that are very different from current Earth animals, I would say probably.  If you mean by monsters strange spirit creatures (like Pete's character) under the control of humans, then almost certainly. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 10:42, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

::With monsters, I wasn't thinking D&D traditional monsters - more, evil spirits, evil shamans and their summonings, possibly 'warped' animals from whatever calamity happened.  Thinking more one off horror type creatures than traditional monsters with ecology etc. --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 11:30, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

:::Those kinds of monsters...oh yeah baby.  You better believe it. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 12:30, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

::::groovy,  ok then, we've got a mix of Cthulu vs. Sword and Sorcery... I like it!!! [grin].  Honestly though, as much as Fantasy feel, I think I'd prefer for a more humanistic kind of game.  The fantastic should be VERY Fantastic, WTF??? kind of moments.  Nothing IMO saps tension away when your meta knowledge tells you exactly what you are facing... --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 13:40, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

:::::Agreed, I will try to make the fantastic, fantastic.  It may be slight more common then you were thinking, but it won't distract from the humanistic nature of the game; the game will still be about people and what they do.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 14:01, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

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new question - and this is something which I am thinking about based on another game that I am playing, in that the story is very much driven by a few certain characters - what happens when those characters are no longer part of the game (dead, left the game etc...)???  for the other game, a bunch of "real world" people are swept into another land, facing fantastic situations.  the story, the plot, the drives are all very strongly tied to these few people swept into this land..  In my opinion, once all these original characters are gone - the story must end, because there is no longer an incentive or reason to continue looking for a way home (if that was the meta plot).  Anyway,  a long way of asking.... In Tros or other strongly narritivistic games and trying to create a campaign...  what happens when the protagonists die or leave?  How can continuinity continue if a major plot line all of a sudden stops?  Uniting the tribes may be my goal, and may be a really cool story line to work on and to role play against, but as soon as my character dies, I'm not sure if that would continue being interesting...  anyway,  just musing outloud here... --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 13:48, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

:Good question.  My feeling is that if one or more of the main protagonists (i.e. the characters we start with) dies, then the story will either change or end.  No way around it.  I won't try to push it one way or the other.  Its one reason why I'm frankly glad we DIDN'T go with the 'stranger in a strange land' thing; TROS is too fatal, conceivably, and the concept needs a rules set that keeps the protagonists alive (regardless of what other horrible stuff might happen to them).  That being said, death is not a guaranteed thing in this game; if faced with very deadly opposition (i.e. you are outnumbered in almost any fashion, people have the drop on you with missle weapons, etc.), you can always run away, surrender, or try to talk your way out.  Remember this is NOT a cinematic/heroic game, where the characters are absurdly resilient and insanely foolhardy.  Those are not survival traits in TROS.  Surrender, run away, or talk; don't forget those words.  I promise you that if you surrender, the game will not get boring; in fact I promise oodles of interesting (albeit terrifying) stuff will happen if you surrender.  MWAHAHAHAHAAHA!!! [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 14:01, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

:: may I make a suggestion?  It's a little bit railroady, but might work for our campaign.  At least for the first little while, if any character dies, can we create new characters at least from the same tribe/region?  This should *help* in keeping the story going while still giving you total options on what your characteristics are...  once we get a feel for the ebb and flow of a TRoS game, we can then expand the characters more and bring in different people from different regions.  Anyway, just a though to possibly make things in the beginnins easier --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 08:13, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

:::I will accept your suggestion and modify slighty...new characters MUST FIT INTO THE CURRENT STORY and its current direction somehow.  Same tribe/region may not be necessary for that criteria to be met.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 08:36, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

:::: works for me.--[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 09:07, 24 August 2006 (PDT)


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this thread has to do with equipment and relative technology levels.  you mentioned that there is a reinnance feel to the Empire, but will that also translate to equipment and weapons?  Are we hunter gathers, spears, bows, single edged swords, or more sophisticated, with barding for horses etc?  

Economically,  do the People trade with currency, or barter?

Geopolitically, are the people free to move about the empire, or are they classed as 'non citizins' (like the early Gauls in the Roman Empire, or the Egyptians etc...)?

p.s.  I'm liking this wiki...  nice way to flow things together...

--[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 09:07, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

: I'm adding a pile of stuff to the description of Empire 1 (now called the Niarch Trade Authority).  Here are the simple answers - a) the Trade Authority has an early rennaissance level of technology.  The People have an early to middle Medieval level of technology on their own (think Vikings), although better equipment can be had, particularly by theft from representatives of the Trade Authority.  Some tribes of the People (not yours) are known particularly for their fine metal work, and jewelry is a common tribute item to the Authority.  As to barding for horses...who said people ride horses? :)  Right now, I'm leaning towards people riding various kinds of ultra large mutated dogs, or maybe pigs, or maybe large flightless birds like ostriches, or maybe all of the above!  Either way, the People are not know particularly for their riding abilities; once I start talking about geography, you will see that the area the people live in is much easier to get around in by foot or by water.  Economically, the People use a combination of barter and gold/silver "coinage" (which actually takes the form of various sizes and weights of beads of precious metal that can be knotted or strung together in lieu of a purse.)  But in general all of the People are fairly poor; the tribute the Authority exacts prevents a lot of economic development.  As to "citizenship", membership is the equivalent in the Authority, and members do have a lot of rights and priviledges.  The Authority does not particularly restrict movement by the People at this time, although during periods of unrest they may require various passes etc. to move freely.  Employees of the Company have more priviledges than non-Employees, and Property (i.e. slaves) have the least priviledges of all.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 11:29, 24 August 2006 (PDT)
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I assume there is a language for The People, a language for The Trade Authority and a language for The Legion. Which of these languages would we have access to? Are there others that we should be aware of?
[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 21:13, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

:Good question.  I've added sections on languages.  As to what your characters should have:  Night Hawk speaks Speech natively, and should also take Men's Hunting Code as an extra language (leaving one extra MA point for either a new skill, another language, or a -1 to an exisiting skill).  Thunder's Rumble speaks Speech natively, and should also take Men's Hunting Code and Trade Niarchic (leaving no other MA points, sorry).  Peregrine should speak Speech, Trade Niarchic, and Old Niarchic (I think); I need to send Pete a pseudo secrect email on a few things to be sure. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 06:59, 25 August 2006 (PDT)


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For this section, I'd like to talk about brandings :)  this has really fired my imagination.  (and sorry, but I can't help but put on my GM's hat here...  I'll reign in, I promise ;) )

:Don't you dare reign in...keep coming up with stuff!  The worst that can happen is I simply tell you no, which is really my only power as a GM.  Go for it! [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 12:37, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

In the discussion on the background of my character (Thunder's Rumble) it was agreed that the empire/corporation owns everthing within its borders, including the people, and they demonstrate it's ownership through branding.  Brands are to be set around ones neck and it's forbidden to conceal one's neck in such a way as to hide ones brand.

it would be cool if this actually represents a couple of different things
1)  branding:  there could potentially be 4 brands, a birth mark, a naming/age of majority mark, a service mark (showing which department you work for etc.) and a "retirement" brand (in the front of your neck, right under your jaw).  the first 3 brands could just be simple brands, but the 4th might utilize tattooing, embedding precious metals or something else.  the 4th brand could also have a couple of different marks - meritous service, discharge without honours, citizen etc. etc. etc.
2)  who gets branded?  everyone but the ruling elite?  everyone?  if you don't have a brand you are either outlaw, foreiner or elite
3)  who does the branding?  village elders for the first 2, your commander for the 3rd, and [xxx] for your final discharge?
4)  since there is a very corporate feel here, it would make sense that the branding was in some way a serialization of each individual - too me this is quite cool, as it also brings into mind the corporate efficiency of the Nazi regime when branding what it considered undesirables.  perhaps there is a ministry of information? and a hall of records?  perhaps the percision of this empire is founded on its information management, perhaps there is a tabulation machine from waaaaaaaay back that is humming away and creates a huge technological advantage between its national peers.....  this is a way cool exploration IMO.
5)  as you can tell, I think this concept is way cool... sorry to hijack what is clearly in the GM's realm...  by not having a brand, Thunder will have mucho issues whenever there is a representiative from the empire, which has really cool roleplaying dynamics - but also cool dynamics when dealing with people from the land.

--[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 10:46, 25 August 2006 (PDT)
:One slight correction...the Gezag (Authority) does not own EVERYTHING in the land of the People.  It owns those things it HAS CHOSEN TO CLAIM.  The Gezag does not recognize ownership by anyone other than a Lid (Member) or association of Liden of the Gezag, but there are a number of reasons why they choose to leave some, even most, of the People's land and resources unclaimed.  The biggest is that practical experience has taught them that is far simpler to set the quotas for the tribute and scare the hell out of them to make them meet it, but let them figure out how to do it themselves.  Saves a lot of wear and tear on the weapons of your soldiers.  The Gezag finds the THREAT of claiming things far more useful than the ACTUAL claiming, in many circumstances.
:I love the whole branding thing.  Here are some answers...
:Who gets branded? Anyone who is officially inducted into the Gezag (the new name of the Authority) in some way; members, employees and slaves.  Among the People, this would be... a) Soldaaten (employee soldiers); only those with a pension/discharge brand SHOULD be found in the land however; the Gezag is very conscientious about making sure that well-trained Soldaaten serve in lands other than their own. b) official employees (arbeiders) of the Gezag; various quislings, traitors, etc. who have positions of authority and draw paychecks from the Gezag to supervise mines, slave labour camps, etc.  c) slaves (bezit), currently chained, escaped or otherwise.  Others of the People would not be branded, as they are essentially beneath the notice of the Gezag as long as tribute flows.  
:What do the brands consist of?  I suggest the following alteration to your branding code: Brand 1 - Serial Number.  They have specially designed brands that work like a printing press for this.  The numbers are recorded in larger ledgers that eventually get sent to processing centers where...well, if we ever get there, we'll figure out exactly what happens and how efficient the information processing is.  But I really like the fascist overtones the whole serial number thing brings in.  Brand 2 - Status.  These are designed in such a way that it is possible to  downgrade (i.e. go from Arbeider to Bezit) but not go back up (example, a circle is a member, a circle with one slash a worker, a circle with two slashes a slave).  Once a slave, always a slave.  Brand 3 - the Company that holds the contract/possession.  Lid (Members) will not have this brand, as they are they are considered to own/employee themselves.  Most of the People who are branded would have the brand of the COV (Cirkelmeer Ontwikkelling Venootschap), since that is the company that governs the area of the People.  Brand area 4 - Specific duty/assignment, these brands would be smaller, leaving room for changes.  An experienced Gezag administrator can read these brands
like a biography.  Again Lid (members) will not have any of these brands; they are considered to be self-assigning.
: Social effects of branding/not branding? Among the Gezag, a brand is considered vital; without one, you are literally unclaimed property with absolutely no status/rights in society.  However, the Gezag are not stupid; they recognize that there needs to be at least some native culture allowed or there will be constant discord, which is bad for the bottom line.  So they are willing to leave a large proportion of the population of their controlled areas unbranded and independent as a kind of morale booster and simultaneous threat; everyone knows that it only takes only one wrong move to be marked for life as a cog in the Gezag machine.  Among the People, it probably depends on the particular tribe/clan and circumstances as to how the brands are viewed.  Some will be proud of their branded status if they are arbeiders (paid workers), especially if they occupy positions of authority in the COV.  Some will find the brands disgusting; a visible sign of selling out to the enemy. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 12:29, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

::: I love it!!!.  Just imagine, your sister coming home, branded an official prostitute, because that is what the company chose for her, and having to live with THAT stigma in your village for the rest of your life...  Those bastards!  makes me want to hunt them down already.  you are making me not like this empire very much :)  --[[User:Jman5000|Jman5000]] 13:23, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

:::: hehe, you really aren't supposed to like them...and I haven't really started on making the Legion do Mercurio obnoxious yet. :)  [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 14:46, 25 August 2006 (PDT)
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Added a lot of stuff to the description of the People, changing them around somewhat to keep the Native American flair and at the same time open up possibilities.  Biggest change is the addition of the concept of niche.  The changes might affect characters the following ways:
* All characters will need a specific tribe.
* Night Hawk's lecherousness takes on a slightly different note in light of the marriage practices of the People.
* since tribes are not primarily geographical, each character can be a member of a different tribe and still get along and even be very friendly and live in the same area.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 13:10, 7 September 2006 (PDT)