Talk:TROS in the Hammer:Magic Spirits

Please post any comments about this material here. Skalchemist 08:01, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

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When making a spell you specifically say that there can be no other nouns or verbs in the phrase. Your examples imply that no other adjectives or adverbs can be used either. Is this a correct assumption? Silentdaikyu 18:55, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

For a charm (the equivalent of a spell of one) you are correct. Only two words (verb noun). For a power (the equivalent of a spell of three) or a weaving (the equivalent of a spell of many) you can use any number of words, and although you choose them as nouns/verbs, you can twist them into adjectives or adverbs for the purpose. Example: My word is the noun "Fire". I can use this as "Flaming" (adjective) in a power or weaving, but not in a charm (as I can only use one noun and one verb. However, an innovation just occurred to me that will make things a bit more obvious. I will add it to the main page, but here it is in a nutshell: whenever you want to make an effect, you write an English language sentence for that effect. The sentence can include words for targets, range, volume, and duration (the four components of the target number), any number of "connecting" type words (with, then, a, the, and, etc.), and a number of your own quality words appropriate to whether it is a charm, power, or weaving. Frankly, I wrote these rules in one stream of consciousness fit, and they need more thought. Whats really needed is for other people to come up with examples of both quality lists for spirits and ways to combine the words into charms, powers, and weavings, and most importantly HOW THEY RELATE TO ACTUAL GAME EFFECTS, so that the implications of them can be thought through a bit. Skalchemist 06:11, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

Thanks Hans, I have been trying to decide what words to use for Peregrine, maybe doing some examples might help. So far I have Peregrine; control, mind, speed, heal, movement, percieve, pain, strengthen. Your changes will help me make up spell examples which I will be adding soon.Silentdaikyu 07:00, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

WOW, I love those words. Thats 8 - two free, and your 6 proficiency points. Which would be your primary? I freely admit I have no idea how this will work in practice; I cribbed the idea from Donjon and Ars Magica. The hard part is going to be implementing the words into actual game mechanics, especially in terms of magnitude. But looking at that list of words I'm pretty darn excited.Skalchemist 07:23, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

One example and some spell sentences which I plan to work on. Just putting words together so far. I haven't decided which is the primary yet, right now I'm leading toward control. I changed healing and strength to verbs. BTW can a verb be changed to a noun in a more complex spell or vice versa?

I control the mind of that man. For complete control of a human targets mind, no resistance roll. This is a level 3 Conquer effect, Area 0 (only one target and mind is considered Area 0), Range 2 (line of sight), Target 3(animal). I'm not completely sure how duration works, so for now this is an instantaneous effect but it can be sustained by not recovering magic pool dice used to cast it. CTN 8 (or 7 if mind or control are primary).

Things I'm working on, I heal myself. I strengthen the perception of my mind. I speed my movement. I control his/it's movement. I control the lock. I speed the boat. I strenghen my perception. I control his pain. I control the speed of his movement. For some of these I'm not sure of the grammar, you can let me know what I can get away with. Silentdaikyu 21:44, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

Thanks for these examples; they give me something to work with that isn't from my own mind. I will try to convert each of these into actual mechanics, and hopefully in the process come up with a general mechanic for that purpose. If a word could be phrased as a noun or verb (strength, strengthen) I'm thinking it can be used as either in a Power or Weaving. In a charm, it must be used as you actually word it in your list.

Some comments on your examples: "I control the mind of that man" is awesome; the mechanics seem right as well to me. "I heal pain in myself" would work; its exact game mechanic effects are unclear to me at the moment, but it would certainly be useful. "I speed my movement" - to the point, love it. "I control his/its movement" - love it, not exactly sure how it would be different from "I control the speed of his movement". "I control his pain" - BOY do I love it. "I heal myself", "I speed the boat", "I control the lock" - none of these work, only one word (a verb) used in each".

One particular grouping of sentences warrants more attention. "I strengthen the perception of my mind" is very interesting. Seemingly, it is not that different from "I strengthen my perception." However, it is actually quite different, because under your current words you cannot use "I strengthen my perception" as a charm, as you have perceive listed as a verb, not a noun. "I strengthen the perception of my mind", however, lets you get roughly the same effect; it just requires you to do it as a Power (and those take longer at it).

One particular word that warrants comment; speed. This word can be both a verb and a noun without modification of its spelling, and I'm inclined to say that is fine; its an exception to the rule. Therefore, you can use both "I control his speed" and "I speed his movement".

On primary words and words in general. If you want to be a Falcon spirit, you are going to have to choose Falcon as a word. That's the bottom line. However, you can choose a broader word (i.e. Birds) and make Falcon subordinate to that at no extra cost [written as Birds (Falcon)]. If you want to be a Falcon spirit, Falcon must be your primary; whatever you make your primary is the kind of spirit you are. You get one primary for free, and can use proficiency points to make other words primary as well. The bonus for these primaries would stack. For example, for six proficiency points you could have could be Birds (Falcon), Control, Mind, Heal, Movement, Percieve, Strengthen. This drops "pain" in favor of making "control" primary as well as Falcon, and drops "speed" in order to keep you a Falcon spirit. Skalchemist 11:11, 28 August 2006 (PDT)

Interesting! I'm not exactly sure how to use bird or falcon as an effect in a spell, especially charms. e.g. I heal his bird, I percieve his bird, I strenghen it's bird, I speed it's bird. Seems kind of strange. I could use Falcon as the target word but that has no effect on the spell (except reducing the target number and making some charms possible that would not be otherwise, such as I heal the falcon, I speed the falcon, I strengthen the falcon.Silentdaikyu 20:24, 28 August 2006 (PDT)

Peregrine IS a Falcon spirit. You can't say "I heal myself"; only one word. But "I heal the Falcon" is equivalent. As to Bird as a word (isn't that a song?), how about "I control that bird" to make a a sparrow distract an enemy, or "I control and strengthen those birds" to get a flock of mighty geese to attack your enemies. Or "I percieve the mind of those birds" might let you see what they see, or at least know what they know; convenient if they are pigeons roosting in the battlements of an enemy castle. Skalchemist 07:14, 29 August 2006 (PDT)

A more complicated charm.

I strengthen the Falcon. To make Peregrine increase his strength by 1 point per success? This is a level 3 sculpture effect + a level 2 conquer effect, target 3(animal), range 0(self), volume 2(I'd say 1 for Falcon form but for the wingspan), once again I am unsure about how duration works so this charm would be instantaneous. CTN 8(7 because Falcon is primary)Silentdaikyu 12:19, 31 August 2006 (PDT)

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Can spirits cast constant and dormant spells? Silentdaikyu 11:33, 31 August 2006 (PDT)

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There seems to be some controversy on the TROS forum on how instantaneous spells work. Some people seem to think that once an instantaneous spell changes an object etc. that object stays changed until someone uses a spell to change it back. Others seem to believe that everything directly changed by a spell changes back as soon as the spell duration is over. Still others seem to believe that if the direct result of the spell could be accomplished naturally then the effect is permanent, but if it was unnatural then the effect ends at the expiry of the spell. I am of the opinion that any changes made to a target directly by a spell should change back once the spell is over. All the indirect effects would be permanent. I hope this makes some sense to you.Silentdaikyu 12:19, 31 August 2006 (PDT)