Editing Midnight RPG - Alignment Conversations (section)

==Andrew==

::''I'd note though, as a point of reflection, that Durgaz learned (and is learning) LOTS about the way of humans. Last session was awesome for this fact. So I'm wondering if these revelations will offer any more insight into Zal as a fellow warrior in the battle. Maybe giving him another benefit of doubt. I'm not saying you SHOULD do that. I'm just noting a thought that might happen.''

Maybe, if not for the fact that what Durgaz has learned/is learning about the ways of humans involves heretofore alien concepts of trust and respect, neither of which is remotely applicable to what Zal has done here. Election-fixing, lying, and deception are not "the ways of humans." (OK, they are, but this is a fantasy game, so let's pretend for a moment that we're dealing with basically good, idealized humans.) They're also not "the ways of orcs". You know what they are the ways of? Legates.

Of course, this doesn't technically matter, because "these revelations" are currently unknown to Durgaz or to other members of the party. 

Incidentally, I remain baffled as to why your reaction to every Zal/Durgaz conflict thus far has always been along the lines of "Maybe Durgaz should learn to tolerate Zal'Kazzir's lying and deceiving his allies" and not, you know, "Maybe Zal'Kazzir should stop lying and deceiving his allies." I'm not judging your point of view, I'm just mystified by it.

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::''As for WHY Zal made the deceptions of the vote... I don't know.  It wasn't my choice.  I was just noting that I "think" he did it from a non-Evil point of view.  I could be wrong though, he IS "Chaotic" after all.  I was giving him the benefit of doubt.  :)''

Fair enough. Like I said to Bill, though, I don't know that "intent" has anything to do with what makes something an evil act. Most people who commit acts we'd consider evil don't do it because they're Eeeevilll ... they do it because they have some twisted idea of how to do good. Mao Tse-tung killed eighty million people to bring his nation into the twentieth century, presumably for the betterment of its people. Anakin Skywalker turned to the Dark Side because he wanted to save the life of a loved one. How is saying "Well, he committed an evil act, but he did it from a non-evil point of view" substantially different from "the ends justify the means"?

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On a final note (I don't know what more I can really say on this topic), what I'm really pushing for here is some consistency on the part of the GM. I'd have argued for the evil-ness of election fixing regardless, but you did set a precedent when you alignment-shifted my character, however briefly, to Evil because be '''killed three people in self defense, while insane.''' We discussed this at the time; I didn't think it was quite enough to force an alignment change, primarily because it was not part of a pattern of similar behavior (although I did agree that it was a serious code violation), but you did, and that's how it went down. All I'm saying is that if '''killing three people in self defense, while insane''' is considered Evil enough to forcibly alignment-shift a PC, '''deliberately, premeditatedly, and secretly derailing the attempts of the first free human society in generations to hold a fair and open democratic election - motivated by what we can only guess was PERSONAL GAIN, since it in no way benefitted the people affected and was accomplished entirely in secret''' sure as hell is, particularly when it '''is''' part of a pattern of similar behavior. If I can't get you to understand why [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion_%28politics%29 subverting] the 48-hour-old system of government we're trying to set up on behalf of the '''good guys''' might arguably be a more serious breach of conduct than [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter manslaughter] ... then, hell, I don't know what to tell you.

: <font color="red">'''''Bill:''' I agree with this whole paragraph.  Especially in light of the fact that Adam didn't have to do anything underhanded.  He could have had Zal approach the other characters and point out that he thinks things are too sensitive to leave the new leadership up to chance, and that one candidate stands out as the best choice, even if the people of the city don't see it.  Instead he treated the whole thing as if the other PCs' desires for a fairly-elected government were so unimportant that he needn't bother himself with changing anyone's mind - he could just lie to US and pretend that the election was a success!  "See?  Your plan worked, and now there's a leader in charge," is I'm sure what Zal is going to say to us.  Not only is it selfish, it's horribly disdainful... of US.''</font>

: <font color="red">'''''Bill:''' Be that as it may, I think we owe Adam the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps he dealt with the whole situation flippantly, like, "Gee, I just want this '''done''' and this is the fastest way I can think of to make that happen."  It could be that Adam really didn't think things through very well (or even treat the situation with the gravity that it deserved), and if he had he would have handled the whole thing very differently.  I remember that there was much laughing and talking OOC at the time, so I think that assuming he did it all with the spirit of disdain and deception that WE all rightly perceive isn't necessarily a safe assumption.  I want to give Adam the freedom to make mistakes.''</font>

: <font color="red">'''''Andrew:''' Oh, just to be clear, I totally think '''Adam''' deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'm not arguing that '''Adam''' is evil. However, based off what we've observed Adam's '''character''' doing, and what Adam himself told us his character was doing and why, I don't see much doubt to give Zal'Kazzir the benefit of.</font>