Editing Midnight RPG - Alignment Conversations (section)

==Kevin==
Bill, on your point about -  I took it to the Yahoo Group, because its a CONTINUING bigger concern I want FINISHED that all players need to be aware of...


::  Incidentally, I remain baffled as to why your reaction to every Zal/Durgaz conflict thus far has always been along the lines of "Maybe Durgaz should learn to tolerate Zal'Kazzir's lying and deceiving his allies" and not, you know, "Maybe Zal'Kazzir should stop lying and deceiving his allies." I'm not judging your point of view, I'm just mystified by it.

Good point...  I'll try to explain a little.
I feel that Adam (and by that Zal) has had lots and lots of different people hammering home those points of view.  I'm not saying those people (including me) hammering on him that he NEEDS to think about these things is WRONG.  No way.  He absolutely needs to consider those things.  

However, he's had his lion's share of reaction.  


No one (except me) has made suggestions to you to consider for Durgaz.  Mostly because YOUR play isn't detrimental to the balance (or rather imbalance) of the game.  However, YOUR play is detrimental to Adam/Zal.  If you choose to NOT tolerate him Adam doesn't get to play his character.  


So... to be fair and balanced as possible.  To take up a little for Adam's play, I tend to always mention the OPPOSITE alternative to this solution.  I'm not suggesting that its the better choice.  I'm just reminding you (and everyone) that while it IS true that Adam has a choice to make in his play that effects his character and the game, so to do YOU have a choice that effects ADAM'S character and the overall game.


Ultimately I usually come closer down to YOUR side of the argument (that Adam might rethink his choices) but I feel its my responsibility to remind the group that there are two sides to the coin.

So it's no mystery.  Don't be mystified.  I don't disagree with YOU.  I'm continually mentioning alternatives to the solution.  With this recent "change" in Durgaz "learning" some stuff, I wanted to mention it again.  Its not that I want YOU to change, its that I don't want that change to not be an option if it (at some point) does make sense.

I don't look at Durgaz's "decisions" in the past to NOT kill Zal as anomolies in his character development, I look at them as choices the character has made - even IF they were made for player reasons.  Those decisions are still there.  How will/would they mesh in with these new future decisions.  Then combine that with the NEW learning he's had from OTHER humans about HUMAN interaction.  Meaning... Zal is a HUMAN, so perhaps this is helping Durgaz to understand Zal's choices in a way.  


A Human's world (and obstensively Zal's world) is not as "lawful" or black and white as Durgaz's (or Orc's) world.  Durgaz is learning that... And so, what will that mean for his relationship with Zal?  It might change nothing.  But it might help understand him more.  That's your choice.  I'm just mentioning that I don't think that's an impossible (or improbable) direction if you took that direction.



::  what I'm really pushing for here is some consistency on the part of the GM. I'd have argued for the evil-ness of election fixing regardless, but you did set a precedent when you alignment-shifted my character, however briefly, to Evil because be killed three people in self defense, while insane. We discussed this at the time; I didn't think it was quite enough to force an alignment change, primarily because it was not part of a pattern of similar behavior (although I did agree that it was a serious code violation), but you did, and that's how it went down. All I'm saying is that if killing three people in self defense, while insane is considered Evil enough to forcibly alignment-shift a PC, deliberately, premeditatedly, and secretly derailing the attempts of the first free human society in generations to hold a fair and open democratic election - motivated by what we can only guess was PERSONAL GAIN, since it in no way benefitted the people affected and was accomplished entirely in secret sure as hell is, particularly when it is part of a pattern of similar behavior. If I can't get you to understand why subverting the 48-hour-old system of government we're trying to set up on behalf of the good guys might arguably be a more serious breach of conduct than manslaughter ... then, hell, I don't know what to tell you.



I think my general want to discuss before making a rule call is confusing you.

I at no point have disagreed with your thoughts.  In fact, at points I've agreed all out.  But I've also asked questions in hopes of better walking through the decision.  


As to "consistency on the part of the GM"...

I feel that I've always shown this consistency.  In the situation with altering Durgaz's alignment I did the EXACT thing as I've done here.  In fact, I believe it went down the exact same way.  Another player asked "would this change Durgaz's alignment?"  to which I replied with a discussion JUST LIKE THIS one.  After which I made the final call on the ruling based on the majority of your fellow players (myself included).

The only difference HERE is that last time it was ALL held in private emails.  Which is why I've asked that this discussion be in the form of a Bluebook.  Because at that time it was troubling to YOU (Andrew), I hadn't realized how much actually.  And this time we have a full line of the entire discussion up and ready for anyone to read/review at any time.

I feel that's the consistency.  The situations are obviously different.  
:*  Durgaz's situation was a little more cut and dry.  He killed three people in cold blood who offered him no real danger at all.  They were neither anywhere near his power level and they were only coming to "arrest" and remove him as ordered by the dock manager.
:*  Zal'Kazzir altered the results of an election.  One that he thought (via his "supreme" ability of Diplomacy and Nobility Knowledge) would be the best option for the new government.  


In both situations the PC is/was wrong.  However the fuzzy area of "Evil" is a little different.  In Durgaz case its alot more cut and dry, he killed people with no reason.  In Zal's case he fixed things to his liking, that might be beneficial or not.


Again - I'm not saying Zal's actions were right or not-Evil.  I'm saying its different and less black/white.  Afterall those situations exemplify the character for which they are based!  Its martial action vs. political motivation.





::  I agree with this whole paragraph. Especially in light of the fact that Adam didn't have to do anything underhanded. He could have had Zal approach the other characters and point out that he thinks things are too sensitive to leave the new leadership up to chance, and that one candidate stands out as the best choice, even if the people of the city don't see it. Instead he treated the whole thing as if the other PCs' desires for a fairly-elected government were so unimportant that he needn't bother himself with changing anyone's mind - he could just lie to US and pretend that the election was a success! "See? Your plan worked, and now there's a leader in charge," is I'm sure what Zal is going to say to us. Not only is it selfish, it's horribly disdainful... of US. 



I agree with you guys.

The only caviate I would add is that this is the way Adam has demonstrated Zal to be over many many games.  Its despicable.  But that's why we LOVE to hate Zal'Kazzir.  

The only negative about all this talk is the fact that RIGHT NOW all our player-to-player out-of-game talk is great but ultimately its all meaningless.  The fact is that until someone learns that the election was fixed (through some sort of investigation)  its all only out-of-character talk.


And a question I have for you guys...

'''What would you DO if your character learned about this situation??'''  

You might want to think about that.  What does it mean to the group?  What does it mean to the town?  What will the ramifications for Zal be?  Will you take it to the leaders of First-Hold?  Or will you let it go?  





::  Be that as it may, I think we owe Adam the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he dealt with the whole situation flippantly, like, "Gee, I just want this done and this is the fastest way I can think of to make that happen." ...snip... I want to give Adam the freedom to make mistakes. 



I feel that ALL our decisions SHOULD have ramifications IN-GAME, whether made as a choice OR made as an accident in some way.

That said, I would guess that Adam DID make this decision to just get it over with.  Adam has told me on many occasions that sometimes he just wants the "boring stuff" over with...  And this seemed like a flippant decision in that manner.  Because if there IS a reason for the decision Adam hasn't ever shared it with me.  



::  Oh, just to be clear, I totally think Adam deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'm not arguing that Adam is evil. However, based off what we've observed Adam's character doing, and what Adam himself told us his character was doing and why, I don't see much doubt to give Zal'Kazzir the benefit of. 



Again - I agree, however the BIG BENEFIT OF DOUBT you all need to remember STRONGLY is that you DO NOT have this information in-character.  If it were a perfect world (in our gaming environment) you wouldn't even have this information OUT-OF-CHARACTER... there's a REASON why we have tons of private (and hallway) conversations in this campaign.

PARANOIA is primary.

It's a common theme and thread that runs through everything in our campaign.  That secrecy creates alot of the FUN drama of the story that might normally been there before. 


I'd challenge to ask - How many other games have you played inwhich this level of paranoia and secrecy have mattered in-game and been "enforced" out of game as well??  Now, how many D&D games has this been true for?


Its Adam's slip ups that sometimes insight these "challenges".  I'm trying to make sure he's aware of that more.


other thoughts?