Editing Midnight RPG - Alignment Conversations (section)

==kevin==
::  Huh? How is it meaningless? A ruling on whether a random PC's alignment should change HAS to take place out of game, by definition. 



I wasn't talking about the ruling on an alignment.  I was meaning that until the situation is known in-character it wouldn't matter.

Nothing more.  So rather than saying "meaningless" perhaps a better term would be "not relevant yet".




::  Also, you keep mentioning the fact that nobody knows the election was fixed, as if that automatically makes it any less evil. Putting aside for a minute that, well, it doesn't, I'd like to point out that unless I'm remembering wrong, none of the PCs witnessed Durgaz murdering the three sailors. So I guess that makes it OK, right? Even if there WERE PCs present, are you implying that it wouldn't have been evil if there weren't? It sounds like you are.



No.  I think, Andrew, you might be reading my words with undue antagonism.  Apologies if you're reading that.  Its not my intent.  At no time am I trying to suggest that those actions are not evil.  I'm not saying it or implying it.  I'm not.

I'm just noting that at this point there are no repercussions to be made in-character.  And asking questions to make sure we have all this thought through well before I take it to Adam.  At this point I think ALL of us (me, you, Bill and Steve) unanimously agree.  That was a bad thing to do.  Altering the outcome of a people with no care or concern for the betterment (as far as we know) is not the right course of action.





::  I don't know whether you're just playing devil's advocate to an extreme, or whether you've just forgotten or just haven't been paying attention to a few things, so let me recap them here:
::  2) Zal'Kazzir altered the results of an election. I don't know where you're getting this whole "He thought it would be best for the townspeople due to his supreme Nobility Knowledge and Diplomacy", because Adam himself told us, right there in game, out loud, that he was doing it solely to consolidate his own power. NOT for the benefit of the townsfolk. NOT because he thought Wilhelm would be the best leader of First-Hold. For Zal'Kazzir. You can keep saying that his motives were pure, but the player behind the character explicitly told us otherwise. 



I was playing devil's advocate.

Although Adam, wrongly commented our-of-character and DID give you all (as players) what Zal'Kazzir's motivation 'might' have been, my point about his skills is that Zal'Kazzir IS (by skill) a master level diplomat.  Perhaps that would give him a better judge of who could/should lead.  

Again... that DOES NOT mean its right.  But it is a consideration to note.  

By noting that (and playing Devil's Advocate FOR Zal'Kazzir the character, not necessarily Adam's choice) I was meaning that while Zal's motives were NOT "good" they might not have been specifically for his own gain.  

Then again ADAM told the group inner motivations.  But I also know Adam has been "using" out-of-game communication for disinformation as well.  Solely because it aids the play of his character's abilities...  (namely the ungodly level of social skills)  


So yes.  I am ONLY playing devil's advocate to ask questions.  




::  And before you say that you wish Adam had kept his mouth shut and not told us that, whether we know doesn't have any bearing on how evil something is. If Durgaz decides to start sneaking into First-Hold and eating babies every night, but he does it all via bluebook so nobody knows, it's still fucking evil.



100% true.  But because of the way we've built the game, that's something that I'd prefer we keep private.  If someone's alignment changes BEYOND the other PCs reason to know (ie. someone by choice or secretive) I'd want to keep it private.  For all you know Zal'Kazzir IS already EVIL.  I'm not saying he is, but just as you suggested to Bill that he trust in "not knowing", I'd ask the same here.  

I'm more than happy with the outcome of the discussion.  But please don't assume that I'm disagreeing with you or arguing or even defending those actions as NON-Evil.  I'm just looking for good definitions, in case it needs talked about.  For all we know Adam may be TRYING to become Evil with Zal'Kazzir.  I don't know - I'll find out what he thinks when I take this outcome to him.


So...  In the end I'd say, AWESOME discussion and I have most everything I need and:  '''"The GM works in mysterious ways, trust that I know what I'm doing."'''





::  So ... what ... mugging someone is totally worse than being, or enabling, a dictator? Stabbing someone is always worse than bilking dozens or even hundreds of people out of their livelihood? I don't see what "martial action vs. political motivation" has to do with the inherent wrongness of an act.



No.

I never said that.  You're putting different meanings in my words.  What I mean is that mugging someone is MUCH easier (black and white) to see than being or enabling a dictator.

In most cases the latter is MUCH more "Evil" than the former.  But sometimes can take more time to sort out.




::  Acting "according to character" isn't a free pass to do whatever we want, UNLESS the character in question is chaotic or neutral evil. In fact, doesn't the very statement "this is the way Adam has demonstrated Zal to be over many many games" describe EXACTLY the sort of "pattern of behavior" that we determined would be grounds for alignment change?



Yes.

I'm not sure why you're thinking I'm against it.  I've just been asking questions, not disagreeing.

Acting "according to character" isn't a free pass.  It is interesting to note though.





::  Look, when all's said and done, you are the GM and you can make whatever ruling you want, even if I disagree with it (and, with all due respect, most of your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense to me.) I really don't understand your apparent feeling that we shouldn't be discussing this as PLAYERS because our characters don't know about it. Whether our characters know about it, and what they would do (if anything) upon finding out should have no bearing whatsoever on our ability to discuss its ramifications as players ... we obviously wouldn't be discussing "Alignment" IN character, so either it's discussed here or not at all.




Andrew...  You seem angry about this.  I'd suggest that you've misunderstood me.

I haven't had any "reasoning".  I've had questions.

I didn't say the players shouldn't be discussing this.  Quite the opposite actually.  What I did note was that at this point, the discussion can't offer anything back (immediately) in-character.  

I've maintained that I like and appreciate discussion on how everyone views the situation to give me 4 different points of view on the situation to make an informed decision.  What I've been doing is NOT disagreeing, but asking questions that I'd guess the player in question (Adam) might have.  If I ask now (Devil's Advocate) then I'll have thought it through (with your help) before needing to answer if/when Adam asks.  

I've done the same thing in every other similar situation about a major judgment call for a player and their character.  For example:
*  I asked for the majority thought and devil's advocate when Durgaz's alignment was in question.  The choice was to the majority.
*  I asked for majority aid when discussing Kyuad's power balance.  And in fact turned the whole decision over to the players to avoid any unfair bias.





::  It also occurs to me that you may also be making special allowances for Adam here, either because you think the rest of us have been "unfair" to him OR because you think that his turning evil would force the group to kill him, thereby causing problems you don't want to deal with. If that is the case, I can understand why you might want to do that, but I certainly hope you wouldn't actually go through with it. 




You would be incorrect.  

I have never thought that, wanted that, or plan to do that.

Ever.



Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.  I don't want you (or anyone) to think I'm disagreeing or arguing here.  This has been a good and enlightening discussion.  I'm glad we're having it.  I hope it will happen as needed in the future.  

But I also hope that (as you suggested to Bill)  you won't assume the worst.

I don't think you did completely,  but I can feel a little aggravation.  

I don't want to insight that.

Since we're both ACTUALLY in total agreement on this.  I just had questions to aid my decision process.

Cool?


'''EDIT''':  I just reread the definition of Chaotic Evil.  Funny...  Its Zal to the letter:
::  '''''"Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules, other peoples' lives, or anything but their own selfish desires. They typically only behave themselves out of fear of punishment."'''''