Editing Chuubo 2-5 (section)

===STOP===
<@Rinley> Wow. Heavy stuff tonight.<br>
<@Dulcinea> ayep<br>
<@Suzy> Yeah, this was more intense than I'd expected.<br>
<@Dulcinea> we're doing interesting things with the rules, as intended<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And... sorry to be hard on Dulcinea's limits.  But the thing is... she's an Imperator, and the main limit on her powers is prep time.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Letting her skip that would be the same as letting a Noble have infinite miracle points.<br>
<@Dulcinea> Hold on, I still say that's workable...<br>
<@Dulcinea> thing is, it doesn't affect the magic, just checks to see what's there<br>
<@Dulcinea> it's a detector.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Sure, with Nightmare Science.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But...<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Even though the formal rules term is "magical Skill", the word you should be paying attention to here is "Science." This isn't magic, or at least not zap-or-shout-a-spell kind of magic: you start by doing research, observation, and experimentation, and then the actual use of the Skill is engineering.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> In short, doing stuff takes time.<br>
<@Dulcinea> And it works like in chemistry class: spread some around, burn it, see what color the flames are<br>
<@Suzy> I feel like I missed an opportunity to give Dulci XP earlier on. I'm still a bit unclear on what qualifies for the "speechless" emote though.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> When in doubt, emote.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Page 430.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> "In fact, even if you are doing magic, even if you're a d'Avignon sorcerer and not the scientist de Montreal, using this Skill probably still takes time: time spent reviewing grimoires and experimenting<br>
<@Random_Nerd> and then casting complicated spells. It's the same process, science-like and then engineering-like, only in a pointier hat; that's just part of what Nightmares' Angel is."<br>
<@Rinley> I think that Rinley was definitely speechless, so take an XP, Knock.<br>
<@Dulcinea> Arigato.<br>
<@Suzy> :) That's true.  It's the sort of emote that if you feel it OOC, you might not say anything at all.<br>
<@Rinley> Well, with Rinley, her not-talking is noticeable.  ^^<br>
<@Suzy> I guess I just don't know Rin well enough to notice then.  :)<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But, the point I'm trying to make is that Dulcinea really can't pull out devices and just say "Oh, I invented that Bat Anti-Shark Spray earlier."<br>
<@Dulcinea> Well, there's a question of what's mundane equipment when you're talking about magic<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Some of the PCs can, but those PCs don't have access to wish-level effects.<br>
<@Suzy> I guess it would be kind of like my using the Know Things skill to know how to jump tall buildings in a single bound.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Yeah.<br>
<@Dulcinea> Well, all we learned is that the fires aren't magic...<br>
<@Random_Nerd> PCs in this, while not normal Nobilis PCs, are pretty powerful.  But they do have limits to what their powers can do.<br>
<@Rinley> Why would you think they be magic?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> You didn't learn that! The powder didn't work, because it's not really a thing!<br>
<@Rinley> sorry, that they are magic?<br>
* Rinley is now known as BethE<br>
<@Dulcinea> well, the fires could be enticing the rats, or the cats could have been magically affected<br>
<@BethE> Eth - at the moment, I'm thinking that Rinley is definitely a motermouth.<br>
* Dulcinea is now known as Knockwood<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Thought for a moment that you said "motormoth."<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Which sounds adorable.<br>
<@Knockwood> That's Dulc's thing<br>
<@BethE> Ah, I knew that 'moter' looked weird.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Knock... do you want to consider switching characters?<br>
<@Knockwood> back to Leo you mean?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> To a non-Imperator.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> You seem to not like the time-limited nature of most of Leo/Dulcinea's powers.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Might you be more comfortable with one of the characters who are more able to do things like that?<br>
<@Knockwood> I'm still getting used to the entire thing<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Because part of the thing is... this sort of "I did it off-screen" is a specific power that some of the PCs have.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Rinley, say.  Lillimund.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But not Leonardo.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> So I was wondering if you'd want to look at the others and see if they feel better, capability-wise.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Since I get the impression that this is bugging you.<br>
<@Knockwood> oh, so basically I need to justify the stuff I use on-screen<br>
<@Random_Nerd> The thing is, you have to invent it on-screen, and only use it afterwards.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> It's a "make stuff" power, not a "retroactively have already made stuff" power.<br>
<@Knockwood> just to check that I get it, how does the noisemaker fit in?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> If you'd decided, earlier, "I'm going to make magic-detecting powder", then the response would be more like "okay, Obstacle 2, how much Will are you using" and so on.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> The only problem is the "I already made it".<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Because you're a mad scientist, but you're not Batman.<br>
<@Knockwood> I'm NOT?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> No. Natalia is Batman.<br>
<@Suzy> So the noisemaker was made on screen?<br>
<@Suzy> Batgirl!<br>
<@Knockwood> Sort of. I said the theory behind it in-game, but OOC<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Well, it related to the theory she was explaining.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Which we started the episode with.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And it was right after a period of downtime.<br>
<@Knockwood> Question, though: what would be acceptable as 'mundane' magic stuff?<br>
<@Suzy> Alright.  So the main difference was, the powder was brought in suddenly without warning, and the noisemaker was brought in explicitly after a long downtime with about five minutes of in-character explaining.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Well, the magic version of Leo changes the asthetics more than the capabilities.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Yeah.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But, for instance, you can mimic the abilities of the Shrine Families, though with a boost in Obstacle.<br>
<@Knockwood> Would, say, you be OK with Leo having a geiger counter?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And you can do stuff that Nightmare Science is good at, like transportation, tinkering with region properties.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> That would be okay, since it's a thing you can buy in a store and everything.  Putting one together from available stuff would be Obstacle 1 at most.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But magic-detecting dust is a much more arcane sort of thing.<br>
<@Knockwood> That was my thinking. The powder is the magic equivalent of a geiger counter<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But it's also something that would be impossible for normal humans to make.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> That makes it harder.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Stuff that only a magician or mad scientist could make is Obstacle 2 and up.<br>
<@Knockwood> that would nerf Dulc compared to Leo<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Nah. Dulcinea can do everything Leo could do.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Just... not particularly things he can't do.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Part of the idea is... Nightmare Science/Magic is something that isn't supposed to exist. That's why the Engine and so on.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And part of how that works is, the farther it goes from what's mundanely possible, the harder it is to make it real.<br>
<@Knockwood> OK, here's the trouble:<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Mmm?<br>
<@Knockwood> I was assuming that there's basically a level of 'mundane magic', stuff that Dulc could do just because she's been studying magic.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Ah.  There isn't.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> The "Dulcinea" thing changes the aesthetics, not the capabilities.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> All magic is hard.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> I mean, there is low-end magic.  And either version of Leo can mimic it.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But that adds to the required obstacle level.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Page 430 and 431.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> In the section on mimicking other kinds of magic.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> We're reserving Obstacles 4 and 5 for nightmare adaptations of other magical Skills' techniques. For instance, the Kichi can astral project while staring into their magical pools as an Obstacle 2 technique. The Yatskaya can embody a spirit or archetype as an Obstacle 3 technique. So a device that you could plug into your brain that would send your thoughts out to scan the world would face a level 4 Obstacle, as for the Kichi technique, plus 2. A machine that grafted a "spirit" or post-Jungian nightmare archetype into your flesh would be Obstacle 5, as for the Yatskaya technique, plus 2.<br>
<@Knockwood> aha... what would be 'simple, practical, and realistic feats of magic'?<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Don't think of it that way.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Magic or science, it's still got difficulty levels based on how impossible a feat it is for normal people.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> At least, unless you use the Engine.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> The Engine cheats.<br>
<@Knockwood> That would still mean Dulc is nerfed relative to Leo<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But they can do exactly the same things.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> So... neither is nerfed relatively to the other.<br>
<@Knockwood> if there aren't any Ob 0 magic feats<br>
<@Random_Nerd> There are. They are to do straightforward and mundanely possible things.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Just, magic-style.<br>
<@Knockwood> oh, it's the type-of-magic thing<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Like, you can set up a levitation spell instead of a block and tackle.<br>
<@Knockwood> OK, now I get it<br>
<@Random_Nerd> So, I mean, it's magic, in character.  But it's easier to do magic to do things other people can do, but faster or better.<br>
<@Knockwood> I should write this down. I kinda slipped into Leo this session.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Doing things they couldn't do at all... I mean, you can do it. But it's hard.<br>
<@BethE> Night, guys! *HUG*<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Part of the problem is that it's easy to slip into thinking "Well, magic can do anything."<br>
<@Knockwood> g'night Beth<br>
* @BethE Quit (Disintegrated: All shall love me and despair?)<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But at least this specific kind of magic is good at some things, and okay at others, and not very good at some.<br>
<@Knockwood> and RN, remind me of this in 2 weeks<br>
<@Random_Nerd> *nod*<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Oh, and I checked, and it is ''possible'' to just put something together on the spot, with no prep.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> But it raises the obstacle level 2 points.<br>
<@Knockwood> which is the same level as burping out unicorns.<br>
<@Knockwood> 9 chars, 431. :)<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Or, at least, astral-projecting.<br>
<@Suzy> I'm off for the night.  Thanks for the game. :)<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And is about as hard as it would be for Rinley to embody Hedge the Fang.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> I mean, in many ways, Leonardo has the best magical skill in the game.  The rest pretty much just do one or two things.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Like, all the Yatskya Magic is cat-stuff.<br>
* @Suzy Quit (Disintegrated: Destiny is choice.)<br>
<@Random_Nerd> His can do a lot of things, it's just that some are at high obstacle levels and require prep work.<br>
<@Knockwood> Where are the Obstacle rules? I keep thinking I should be rolling dice.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> It's like the mundane skill equivalent of an auctoritas you need to beat.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Let me find the rules.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Page 225 in the Fortitude PDF.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> See also Magic, starting on 237.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Either Leo or Dulcinea has what's defined mechanically as magic.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Just with different FX.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And, for reference, Leo has two points in Nightmare Science when he's not using the Engine.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> And note too that Heartless Perfection can free up more will for magic, if you use it to do other things without spending it.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> Anyway, I must go sleep.<br>
<@Random_Nerd> See you next week.<br>
<@Knockwood> g'night RN<br>
* @Knockwood Quit<br>
Session Close: Thu Dec 06 23:35:58 2012<br>