Editing Kyuad - Acquiring Stone Discussion

= ACQUIRING STONE INFORMATION =

=== Current ===
From the information currently (12/12/07) in the Gear section of [[Kyuad]]'s page:

::'''Acquiring stone''' - "Sometimes innovation means stealing another's secret before anyone else can. When successfully counterspelling another spellcaster, this item pays for the spell energy cost of the spell you cast, and returns to you an amount of spell energy equal to the level of the spell cast by your opponent. It also grants a type of insight into the spells others cast for the purpose of counterspelling. 

=== Revised ===

Finalized revisions go here.

= ISSUES =

=== How Counterspelling Works ===

The following is pasted from the [http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html#counterspells SRD]:

It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

'''How Counterspells Work''': To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

'''Counterspelling Metamagic Spells''': Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

'''Specific Exceptions''': Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.

'''Dispel Magic as a Counterspell''': You can use [http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#dispel-magic dispel magic] to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell (see the spell description).

==== Dispel Magic ====

Pertinent information from the spell:

''Counterspell'': When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

''Dispel Check'': You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level.

''Greater Dispel Magic'': the max to the roll increases to +20.

=== Comments ===

* Given that Kyuad doesn't have access to but three of the nine schools, the chances of him being able to counterspell without casting [http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#dispel-magic dispel magic] are pretty low.  Greater dispel magic works the same way, but has a +20 limit on the CL check instead of +10.
** The way this works means it's basically a caster level check, with a big bonus going to the defender.  Kyuad vs. a level 13 legate means the roll is going to be 1d20+10 vs. 24, or a 30% chance of success.  
** The 'Stone could grant a bonus to this check.  Something on the level of +5 - +10.  Maybe even make it automatic - which would be good since it could mean that someone using this only needs the one spell to counterspell others.  If that's the intent.
* I think that healing spells can be countered by inflict spells ''and'' cure spells.  Kyuad's set up for this, so that's good.
* The check to recognize a spell is Spellcraft DC 15 + spell level.  Since max is 24 on this check, Kyuad automatically succeeds on every attempt to recognize a spell being cast.  Might be a good thing to remember! :)
** The 'Stone could give a bonus to this, and that would make sense just from the standpoint of someone making the item for use.  Kyuad doesn't need a bonus on the Spellcraft check though.
* One thought is that the 'Stone might give a bonus to ''notice'' that a spell is being cast in the vicinity.  It's my opinion that most spells aren't that easy to notice if someone isn't looking for them.  Wiggle your fingers behind your coat and whisper to yourself, and you've got it done.  Cast a spell in a crowd and people just think you're odd, not trying to kill everyone with a fireball.  But, this is just based on the fact that "verbal component" doesn't have a volume requirement, and the magic used in movies I like tends to allow for as much subtlety as extravegance.  So maybe this item makes it so that any spell being started nearby triggers a "spidey-sense" kinda tingling so you know to look out.
** The problem with this is that readying to counterspell requires you have a specified target and a readied action.  So knowing that a spell is being cast is no good unless you suspected the caster of doing so.  This is the big problem with counterspelling.  The counterspeller has to give up his non-movement actions each round he expects a spell ''might'' be cast by a target.  If someone notices a readied counterspeller, all they have to do is not cast spells, and go melee against the counterspeller, who can't fight back without giving up the chance to counterspell.  '''''DUMB'''''.  This is why counterspelling is usually ignored.
*** Perhaps the 'Stone allows for counterspelling to be accomplished without readying at all.  Like, anyone within Medium range (as defined by spell ranges) that casts a spell can be counterspelled by the 'Stone once per round, as a free action.
**** The 'Stone could give the user the ability to counterspell as a free action
**** The 'Stone could hold charges of dispel magic and then use them once per round as a free action to dispel a target designated by the user.  The upside of this is that someone could cast into the stone on low-magic days and be prepared for a later fight.  The downside is that unless you word it right (like the caster must be the user) anyone could counterspell with it, as long as they recognized the spell being cast.

'''From Kevin:'''
* The biggest thing I want to ensure is that this "special" gift from the Witch Queen does one of two things...  either: 
** is useful semi-often  (ie. Eranon's "Hells Heart")  that isn't ultra-powerful  (ie. it's though for one type of outsider, but not for others)  
*** '''''Reply''': Since the Acquiring Stone is only useful against spells cast close enough to Kyuad, and only once a round, I think that makes it fall into the "useful semi-often" category.''
** is a mega-plot changing device with limited uses  (ie.  Durgaz's sphere that is a big plot device but limited for uses)

'''From Bill:'''
* I ''hate'' D&D's counterspell mechanic.  It's stupid and only works if you have a wide range of spells available and you're up against one creature that is likely to cast spells during combat.  Even then, attempting to counterspell is almost the same as taking yourself out of the fight since it requires a standard action every round.  I can't emphasize enough how stupid this seems to me.<br>But, the idea for an item that makes counterspelling easier is ''fantastic''!!!  I love that.  Make up for the system's problems with awesome items!
* Basically, the item needs to give Kyuad a reason to risk counterspelling.  It's an action that would be up Kyuad's alley were he to think there was a reasonable chance of success.  There's not currently a reasonable chance of success.  (it's roughly 40% by my best guess)
** '''Success Problems''': Kyuad knows most of the necromancy spells, so if an enemy were to cast one, he'd probably be able to counter it.  Healing spells have to be prepared by legates, so it hurts to counterspell those, and he can probably counter those too.  Abjuration spells aren't common in combat.  So, if it's not a healing spell or a necromancy spell, it's either not going to get cast or it's not something Kyuad can counter without dispel magic.  Since dispel has about a 1 in 3 chance of success against a same-level target, he's going to lose more SE than the item would gain him in the long run if he were to try to counter every time.  Since this is going to be entirely fruitless 2 out of 3 attempts, and it's boring and frustrating to spend a fight readying to counter a spell, it's not an acceptable success rate.
*** The success rate that we're looking for, to make it worth doing at all, is 80%.  Enough of a chance to fail that it's a risk, but enough of a chance to succeed to make up for losing most of the character's effectiveness.
** '''Being Neutered''': One big counterspelling problem is that you "move and ready" every round in order to do it at all.  For a character like Kyuad, this takes away most of his effectiveness in combats.  We'd all be better off just silencing the spellcaster, which is something Zal can do 15 or so times a day.
*** If Kyuad could "spontaneously" counterspell, it would be better than having a silenced caster, because if he's counterspelled, then he's lost a spell.
* This could be a character-defining item, like the rest.  
** Eranon having '''Hell's Heart''' makes him a feared enemy to all the demons and such, and makes it so that we have a "final solution" when it comes to dealing with them.  That's huge.  It basically makes him a demon hunter.
** Durgaz's "'''plot device'''" isn't used up yet, but so far it's allowed him to kill a near-legendary orc hero, and free a whole tribe of orcs from Izrador's control.  Those two things alone could make him legend, and he's not done yet.
** '''Ardherin's journal''' basically made a whole section of summoning spells available to Zal'Kazzir that were previously so dangerous that they were stupid.  Our biggest problem being Zal's willingness to do stupid things has been solved by the device, making it so Adam '''''can''''' do the cool stuff that he's been wanting to do without us killing Zal for it.
** The '''Acquiring Stone''' could be just as defining for Kyuad.  A real threat now to the legates of the world.  A master of the arcane in the making.  I think it would be hard to overpower this item, since it's only useful against spells and spell-like abilities.

'''Possible Solutions by Bill:'''
* It could give Kyuad a notification that a spell is about to be cast, and by whom, in time for him to ready a counterspell action.
** ''Problems'': This requires Kevin to "tip his hand" as to his strategies during combat.  These strategies could change.  It's asking a lot for Kevin to have this knowledge before the enemy's turn.  It involves sending lots more secret information across the room.
* It could make it so Kyuad is constantly ready to counterspell, so that once per round, if a spell is cast and Kyuad has the ability to notice it and recognize the spell, then he can counterspell it without having had to spend a Standard action the previous round.  Even if it doesn't work (he doesn't know the spell and the dispel check fails) then he still gets to '''do''' something during the fight.
** ''Problems'': The biggest problem with this is that it has the potential to allow Kyuad to counterspell every round.  However, given that the success rate isn't really high, and we have lots of other options for stopping the casters, it essentially relegates the use of this ability to times when Kyuad is fighting a legate solo.
*** (non-legate casters usually have low Fort saves, so Kyuad has a pretty good chance of killing them with magic even if they cast a spell)
@@ Line 73: / Line 73: @@
 ** The '''Acquiring Stone''' could be just as defining for Kyuad.  A real threat now to the legates of the world.  A master of the arcane in the making.  I think it would be hard to overpower this item, since it's only useful against spells and spell-like abilities.
-=== Possible Solution ===
+'''Possible Solutions by Bill:'''
-* I suggest that the following replaces the words in the item's description that currently read, "It also grants a type of insight into the spells others cast for the purpose of counterspelling."
+* It could give Kyuad a notification that a spell is about to be cast, and by whom, in time for him to ready a counterspell action.
-** "It also gives a +5 bonus on dispel checks when used to counterspell, and it makes it so that every round the user can counterspell once as a free action."
+** ''Problems'': This requires Kevin to "tip his hand" as to his strategies during combat.  These strategies could change.  It's asking a lot for Kevin to have this knowledge before the enemy's turn.  It involves sending lots more secret information across the room.
-*** ''Balance Issues'': What limits this so that casters still have a chance against Kyuad?
+* It could make it so Kyuad is constantly ready to counterspell, so that once per round, if a spell is cast and Kyuad has the ability to notice it and recognize the spell, then he can counterspell it without having had to spend a Standard action the previous round.  Even if it doesn't work (he doesn't know the spell and the dispel check fails) then he still gets to '''do''' something during the fight.
-**** First off, it requires that Kyuad notice the spell being cast, and that he's close enough to counterspell.  If he's in a focused fight in a dungeon, he'll probably notice.  On the battlefield of Firsthold, he wasn't close enough to those legates.  Anything cast from further than Medium range can't be countered with dispel magic (many evocations, for instance).
+** ''Problems'': The biggest problem with this is that it has the potential to allow Kyuad to counterspell every round.  However, given that the success rate isn't really high, and we have lots of other options for stopping the casters, it essentially relegates the use of this ability to times when Kyuad is fighting a legate solo.
-**** More than one caster means spells still "go off".  The easiest one for Kyuad to counter is the one that gets countered, but the rest go through just fine.
+*** (non-legate casters usually have low Fort saves, so Kyuad has a pretty good chance of killing them with magic even if they cast a spell)
-**** Midnight is a low-magic setting.  This just isn't going to come up very often.  It hasn't even once so far.
-**** Easy way around this: Quicken Spell.  I don't think it's in the rules anywhere, but a Quickened Spell really ''should'' be cast fast enough that it doesn't give someone a chance to counter it.  There are other metamagic feats and solutions that prevent Kyuad from knowing a spell is being cast too.
-**** His chance of success is 100% '''ONLY IF''' the caster being countered is level 8 and didn't cast a spell Kyuad knows, ''and'' Kyuad uses ''greater'' dispel magic; '''OR''' if the caster being countered used a spell Kyuad knows.  Kyuad doesn't know a ''lot'' of spells.
-**** If Zal is there the caster's just going to be silenced anyway.
-**** In D&D part of the balancing factor to things like this is that paladins (and rangers and the like) and multiclassed casters usually don't have a CL equal to character level.  In Midnight, everyone who can cast anything has a CL equal to character level.  This makes it harder to dispel everything than it would be in D&D.
-***** Honestly, this seems like so many limitations that it's not worthy of Aradil giving it to our group.  The fact that it returns the SE for the counter and SE for the spell countered makes up for this.