Editing Session 83

lazarus: for Eth: Excruciating the Power of Coffee: "We've replaced his Estate with Folger's Crystals.  Let's see if he notices."<br>
BethE: Hi Etheric!  *HUG*<br>
BethE: Oh, hey, RN, I have a request.  Could we reword the last few lines of the last bit of in-characterness?  So that we get the price of the questions before Brian asks a half-dozen of them?<br>
lazarus: ... I only asked two x_x<br>
lazarus: but I agree to the reorder<br>
Random_Nerd: That's fine with me if you guys want to.<br>
BethE: I am kidding you, Laz.  :)<br>
Etheric: Oh, what happened last time?<br>
BethE: And plus, I found out that the person who asks the questions pays the price.  So unless Brian can regrow limbs later...<br>
lazarus: we split off, and Jen Ban Jen blew up reality.<br>
BethE: I'll put it up on the wiki...  Turns out JBJ is kinda elder-god-ish.<br>
Random_Nerd: Well, he<br>
Random_Nerd: 's still one of the new gods.<br>
Random_Nerd: But one of the oldest of them.<br>
Etheric: What's the URL of the wiki?  I need to bookmark it on my laptop too.<br>
BethE: Eth - apparently, the price for a question is the removal of a body part (by the question asker.  Of the question asker.)  and that you can't regrow or fix the removal for a year and a day.  And if anyone asks, you have to say that you did it 'cause of him.<br>
BethE: (Link: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Chancel_Amyra)http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Chancel_Amyra<br>
Random_Nerd: Oh, and if you don't like your answer, and don't want to pay a finger or eye or nose or whatever for it, you don't have to, but if you don't, he won't answer any more questions from the Familiar until the next Age.<br>
Random_Nerd: Err, Familia.<br>
Etheric: Thanks Beth.<br>
Etheric: Do you want to go back to the JBJ scene, and when Knock gets here we can do one with Carrie and Dante?<br>
Etheric: Since we are split at the moment, if I've been following.<br>
Random_Nerd: Well, Knock was playing as Sam for the JBJ scene.<br>
*** Knockwood has joined #nobilis.<br>
Etheric: Ahh, okay.<br>
Random_Nerd: But since he's not here, we could...<br>
BethE: Okay, Session 82 is up.<br>
lazarus: hey kwd.<br>
Random_Nerd: Or not!<br>
Etheric: Hey Knock.<br>
BethE: Hi Knock!<br>
Random_Nerd: Hey, Knock.<br>
Knockwood: what were you planning?<br>
Random_Nerd: Which scene to do first.<br>
Knockwood: Woulda been here sooner but Vista was misbehaving.<br>
BethE: If I was to move around the last bits of the last IC of the last session, I would put Theresa's greeting, JBJ's exposition and then hold on Brian's questions until he understands that his body bits are going to be the ones missing if he asks them.<br>
Knockwood: good idea<br>
Random_Nerd: Now, let's see.  Samuel was the only minion you brought back to Amyra, correct?<br>
lazarus: *nod*<br>
BethE: Yep.  Although since we're in the Grove, the Maple is there too, but I doubt Etheric wants to play a tree.  :)<br>
Random_Nerd: Hmm.  But Carrie/Eve does have Anchors in-chancel, if Etheric wants a character.  Oh, and yes, the Maple's there, but he doesn't talk, at least not to you guys.<br>
Etheric: Okay, JBJ's in Amyra?<br>
Random_Nerd: ...kind of.<br>
lazarus: yep<br>
lazarus: well<br>
Random_Nerd: Let me find the log bit...<br>
lazarus: he kinda inverted the universe<br>
Etheric: I'll have one of Carrie's Anchors wander in after I get caught up in the logs, then.<br>
Random_Nerd: [22:45] Random_Nerd: Everyone there, you feel a seizure starting to overtake you. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:46] Random_Nerd: You twitch madly, can't think or see straight... and suddenly it feels like the world turns inside out. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:46] Random_Nerd: The dome of  the sky is filled with Amyra. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:46] * Samuel_Dionyl looks like confetti... <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:46] Random_Nerd: Directly above you is the Grove, and everything else spreads out to the sides. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:46] Random_Nerd: LIke it was inverted onto a dome. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:47] Random_Nerd: Under you, a vast dark shape turns. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:47] Random_Nerd: You can feel it drawing the light and heat out of the world above. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:47] Random_Nerd: And you can feel it watching you as you hang suspended between it and the dome of the world. <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:47] Samuel_Dionyl: (Damn I hope that's localized...) <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:47] Samuel_Dionyl: (Any effects specific to me?) <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:48] Random_Nerd: (No.) <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:48] Theresa: *bows*  "Greetings, True God Jan Ben Jan." <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:48] Random_Nerd: In a voice like tectonic drift, it says "What do you wish to know of me?  Be aware, any questions you ask will have a price."<br>
Knockwood: (BTW, I think you're missing a session between 60 & 61.<br>
BethE: Our message to JBJ also kinda broke one of the Jupiter Chancel's folk.<br>
Etheric: Yikes?<br>
BethE: (I'll check later, thank you.)<br>
Knockwood: (There's an OOC session there, but the next session seems to have moved on with the plot as well)<br>
lazarus: (didn't we have an OOC session where we advanced the plot?)<br>
Random_Nerd: Basically, one of the guards went into a glossalalic trance and said stuff from Jan Ben Jan, in between mumbled and shouted gibberish.<br>
Random_Nerd: So, how do you want to handle Carrie's absence, Etheric?<br>
Random_Nerd: Bring in an anchor who retroactively was there all along, or just sit out the scene?<br>
Etheric: Either is fine.  I had been thinking the Anchor wanders into the grove at a conveient time, but it seems that's less feasible with the current situation.<br>
Random_Nerd: For that matter, how much Realm does Carrie have?<br>
Etheric: Two.<br>
Random_Nerd: That's enough for telepresence if you want.<br>
Etheric: Ah, point.<br>
Etheric: Just keep going and I'll figure something out.<br>
Knockwood: not to mention a chunk of the chancel going >BOING!< would attract some interest... :)<br>
Random_Nerd: Okay.  Everyone else ready?<br>
*** You are now known as Theresa.<br>
Knockwood: OK, starting with the JBJ scene?<br>
Theresa: I think so.  How much Realm does Brian have?<br>
*** Knockwood is now known as Samuel_Dionyl.<br>
*** lazarus is now known as Brian.<br>
Brian: R2<br>
Brian: (hm.  R2D4)<br>
Theresa: And Aspect 0?<br>
Random_Nerd: [22:49] Random_Nerd: "These are my rules.  You can ask me about the present, the past, or the future.  I will answer if I can.  If I cannot answer, there is no price." <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:50] Random_Nerd: "If I answer, the cost is a piece of your flesh, something obvious, that anyone can see.  A finger, and eye, a nose.  And two promises.  First, not to regrow it or replace it with living flesh for a year and a day." <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:50] Random_Nerd: "And second, to tell any who asks about it that it was the price for a question put to me." <br>
Random_Nerd: [22:50] Random_Nerd: "If you do not think the answer I give is worth the price, you need not pay it, but then I will answer no more questions to you until the age turns."<br>
Random_Nerd: _________________START_____________________________<br>
Random_Nerd: The craggy dark mass turns below you.<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Now, where am I?)<br>
Brian: ... ping?<br>
Theresa: "If you will pardon us a moment, sir, we shall discuss your payment plan and who shall by paying, privately."<br>
Random_Nerd: (You're hovering in mid-space, over the dark shape that seems to be JBJ.)<br>
Theresa: (will shuffle Brian over to the side if possible)<br>
Random_Nerd: (What, Laz?)<br>
Brian: (just was minutes without any response to anything, was afraid of pingout - doesn't let me know)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Can I talk with them?)<br>
Brian: (and, T, if you put any A into it, Brian goes flying)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Which them?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (The other PCs?)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Brian & Theresa)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Yes, if you talk, they can hear you.)<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl joins the 3-D huddle<br>
* Theresa hisses to Brian.  "I can handle being chopped into bits for the questions."<br>
Brian: "So can I.  I'm the one who wants the answers.  You don't need to suffer for my interest."<br>
* Theresa rolls my eyes.  "Hello.  Plants are pruned often, usually to improve their fruit.  And I can grow parts _back_."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "If you'll forgive me... are you absolutely sure of the question?<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "and that you want to hear the answer?"<br>
Brian: "Yes."<br>
Theresa: "Figured it'd be good to figure out the checkbook before writing the checks."<br>
Brian: "Well, if you're sure..."<br>
Theresa: "I'm sure.  You and Dante were going on about how the end of the Age affects Numbers and Courage and Hope...it's my universe too, ya know!  It's where I keep my stuff."<br>
Theresa: "I will need a sharp 4 or something to cut bits off, though."<br>
Brian: (Joss... Whedon point to T)<br>
Theresa: *to Sam*  "If we find out some new point of information that's rather big, Sam, do we get any bonuses from your organization?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "... should I ... call your brother?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (RN, could they?)<br>
Theresa: (I forget the reason Dante told Sam to call him...)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Depends on the information.  Information can be valuable.  But on the other hand, the arrangement the PCs have with the Aides doesn't stop Sam and WIll from themselves collecting and sending in such information, as long as it's not private to the PCs.)<br>
Theresa: (Ah, okay.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (for a Blade)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Of course, on the other hand, the Aides don't charge for most information you get from them.)<br>
Theresa: (Can I retract my question to Sam, then?  :) )<br>
Theresa: (Can Dante do a Creation that appears elsewhere?  Or I guess I could just lesser change a creation of a leaf or somesort so it's sharp enough to cut through Durant.)<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl touches his ear-sphere...<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "The Aides... may be more forthcoming with information of similar value... should you need it."<br>
Theresa: (And hmm, I should probably have something hot to cauterize it.  No good bleeding onto the Happy-Fun-Imperator.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Oh, and a sharp piece of wood with a Lesser Pres on it could cut Durant flesh, if someone with high Aspect or a sledgehammer hit it.)<br>
Theresa: "Thank you, Sam.  I appreciate it.  And I'm not sure about calling Dante for a blade.  Brian and I should have enough between us to fiddle something."<br>
Theresa: (Define high.  As Theresa is only 2 and Brian is zippo.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Two would do it.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Aspect miracle?)<br>
Theresa: (Ah, okay, self-mutiliation it is.)<br>
* Theresa looks at Brian.  "So, what are our questions?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "Should I go get a lawnmower?<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "... I don't understand human humor at all, do I?"<br>
Brian: "What does an Estate of an Age embody, and what will happen should Ananda die before the Turn of the Age"<br>
Random_Nerd: Rumble.<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (dance-fight! :)<br>
Random_Nerd: JBJ: "That's two questions.  I'll require two prices for answering it, thus."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Also, both questions would require clarification."<br>
Theresa: "That will be acceptable, the two prices to be paid.  What kind of clarification would be needed?"<br>
Random_Nerd: "On the first, what is meant by 'embody' here?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (you could tell him _why_ you want it)<br>
Theresa: (I think he would freak out at the thought of someone actively trying to kill off an Age Imperator.)<br>
* Theresa looks at Brian for the clarification.<br>
Random_Nerd: "And on the second, the answer would depend on how Andanda died.  The things that would happen if he died by the hand of an Excrucian would not be the same as those that would happen if he died by the hand of a Noble or Imperator, for example."<br>
Random_Nerd: (Well, it's happened before, so it's not utterly a new idea.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (which means if you tell him you're trying to _prevent_ that...<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: )<br>
Brian: "Well, the Estate of Numbers, I know, is quantities, and so on.  What is the equivalent for an Age Estate.  As for the second question, there is a plan, which we disagree with, to have Ananda killed - by other Imperators - to prevent the Age Change."<br>
Random_Nerd: "The answer to your first question is, 'The Estate of an Age embodies a period of time between the beginning and end of that Age, a large section of the Mythic World connected to one of the Roots of the World, and certain principles that were introduced in that Age.'  Who will pay the price for this?"<br>
Random_Nerd: (Err, Spirit World, not Mythic World.)<br>
Theresa: "I will be paying all of the prices, sir."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Then which obvious part of your body will you give me?"<br>
* Theresa holds up her left hand.  "My left ring finger, if that is sufficient."<br>
Random_Nerd: "That will suffice."<br>
* Theresa LCs a stump to steady her hand on.<br>
* Theresa cuts off her finger, wincing.<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl gets ready to ... I-don't-know-what.  Catch it?<br>
* Brian will relay this information to Carreve, through the Realm's Heart.<br>
Random_Nerd: "Now, the second question, you ask what will happen if Ananda is slain by other Imperators?"<br>
Theresa: "Sam, do you have an extra bit of cloth I can borrow for a tourniquit?"<br>
Brian: (et)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "Absolutely..."<br>
* Theresa looks at Brian.  "What will happen to the universe, I would think, right?  Because if it's just what will happen, the answer is 'He dies.' and that's that."<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl hands over a swath.<br>
Theresa: "Thank you very much, Sam."  *twist wring pressure*<br>
Brian: "Specifically, will it successfully prevent the change of the Age"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (and/or do anything to the War)<br>
Random_Nerd: "And how would you define what you mean by 'the change of the Age'?"<br>
Brian: "hm.  The end of this Age, and the start of a new one."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Where's the finger, BTW?)<br>
Random_Nerd: "So, you ask, 'If Ananda is killed by other Imperators, will the Third Age end and the Fourth Age begin?'?"<br>
Theresa: (*gives Sam the finger!*)<br>
Random_Nerd: (By the rules, Jan gets the finger.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (So, you intend to give an Imperator the finger? :P )<br>
Theresa: (If this ends in a bunch of Theresa-clones, RN, you and I will have words...)<br>
Theresa: (Yep!  :)  Holy Fire, eat your heart out!)<br>
*** Brian has signed off IRC (Connection reset by peer).<br>
Theresa: (Oops.)<br>
Random_Nerd: Theresa's finger falls to the surface of Jan Ben Jan.  For a moment, it seems to glow, but the light is quickly sucked out of it into the rest, and it freezes and sticks.  For an instant, it seemed as though the parts of the vast mass below you were /also/ made of frozen fingers, hands, arms, and eyes.<br>
Theresa: (I appreciate that JBJ is being reasonable with his answers and clarifications, as opposed to some other people I could name.  :) )<br>
*** lazarus has joined #nobilis.<br>
Random_Nerd: (What did you last see?)<br>
*** lazarus is now known as Brian.<br>
Theresa: (re!)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (WB)<br>
Theresa: (*posts what he missed*)<br>
Brian: (no, not the Fourth Age specifically, just an Age in general)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Then you'll have to say that in character.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Any chance he has my eye, BTW?0<br>
Brian: (ok)<br>
Brian: "Not the Fourth Age in specific, just a general Age."<br>
Theresa: (Ooo, that would be nifty, wouldn't it.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (You could ask...)<br>
Random_Nerd: "If Ananda is killed by other Imperators, the Fourth age will not begin.  The Third Age may end, but only if Attaris Ebrot Appeka choses to allow it to end.  The Fifth Age may begin, but only if there is an Imperator of the Fifth Age.  If there is, I do not know about it, but such an Imperator would be able to hide from me if he chose."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Who will pay the price for this answer?"<br>
Theresa: "Me, again, sir.  Will the other ring finger be acceptable?"<br>
Random_Nerd: "It will."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Aw crap, that means Barakiel's right)<br>
* Brian again relays this information<br>
Random_Nerd: (In some respects, at least.)<br>
Theresa: *Hasaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan CHOP!*<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl hands over another swath...<br>
Brian: (... no, it really doesn't.  It means that we were right all along)<br>
Brian: ('cause that's pretty close to what we were arguing would happen)<br>
Random_Nerd: The finger falls down and rests in place, as the light and heat in it is drawn out.  And yes, the stuff it landed on were definitely other limbs and appendages.<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Would he know how to end the sodding war?)<br>
Theresa: (Do Brian and Theresa know how Dante lost his eye?  DOes Dante?)<br>
Brian: (Dante lost his eye?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Dante's always had a glass eye... well, a crystal eye, as long as the game's been going.)<br>
Brian: (ah.  right.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (It's in my charsheet.  Lost in a knife fight just before the enNobling)<br>
Theresa: (Ah, right.)<br>
Theresa: (Hmm...I have some fingers left...want to ask the war question?  :) )<br>
Brian: (up to you.  Brian's convinced :-P)<br>
Random_Nerd: (I'm just amused by the fact that that answer made Knock go "Crap, it means he was right and we were wrong!" and Laz go "Yay, it means we were right and he was wrong!")<br>
Brian: (well, it's 90% what I was arguing)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Hmm.  How so?  I was pretty sure you were arguing that the Fourth Age would still come, because it would be supported by other Domains, including your own.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (He's right that killing Ananda means no 4th age, but we're right in that it doesn't stop the clock, then?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (So it would appear.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (It wouldn't kill Time, for instance, just weaken it.)<br>
* Theresa peers at her hands *pressure pressure*, thinking.<br>
Brian: (Kwd was arguing that.  I would argue that the Fourth Age in specific would likely not exist, but that it wouldn't halt the Age Change)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Ah, yes.  And the answer is that it may or may not, depending on the actions of one Imperator and the existence or nonexistence of another.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (But that it wouldn't be /certain/ to halt it.)<br>
Brian: (My suspicion, based on that, is that Ananda existing doesn't guarantee things anyway)<br>
Brian: "Anything you want to ask, Sister?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Ah... not quite)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Ananda existing _does_ guarantee something... there will be a 4th age, possibly a post-war age, that we have some influence over)<br>
Theresa: 'Something, but out of my own curiosity than a duty to save the rest of the universe."  *small smile*<br>
Theresa: (Unless Ananda's a Mimic.  :) )<br>
Random_Nerd: Jan Ben Jan: "I care not why you ask me, as long as you are willing to abide by the rules I gave."<br>
Brian: (um.  It doesn't guarantee that the Age will change at the time predicted)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (_That's_ it!)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (a 4th age ... _later_ )<br>
Brian: "If you're willing, go ahead, though I will say I don't like you mutilating yourself..."<br>
Theresa: "They'll grow back, Brian.  Trying to decide what would best fulfill the terms of the agreement."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Not for a year and a day, remember.)<br>
Theresa: (I know, dear.)<br>
Theresa: (Oh, sorry, I know, Knock.  :)   I had answered the same reminder earilier today from RN.)<br>
Random_Nerd: Jan Ben Jan: "I see that your sister Hope is not here.  Please tell her that I was interested by the things she saw about humanity's Imperial nature."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (heh)<br>
Theresa: "Ah, I did not know you also had seen her vision."<br>
Random_Nerd: "I am the embodiment of Prophecy."<br>
Theresa: "Oh, wow."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Which opens up a whole boatload of questions...<br>
Random_Nerd: (Which may be why he said it!)<br>
Theresa: (Makes sense with the past/present/future part of the exposition.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (hey... that ball has Odin's eye in the center, doesn't it)<br>
Theresa: (Or the very first lost sock.  For variety.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Which is the Dionyl equivalent. :) )<br>
Random_Nerd: (Yes, in this Nobilis game's cosmology, Odin gave his eye to Jan Ben Jan.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Except it wasn't /exactly/ Odin...)<br>
Random_Nerd: (But the events that myth was based on, at least.)<br>
Theresa: (Darn it, RN, you're making me reconsider my curiosity question to ask what his Estates are...)<br>
Random_Nerd: (He has three of them.  You can probably guess the third.)<br>
Theresa: (My curiosity question is something different; but now I'm wondering about the Estates.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Stale Bong Water. :) )<br>
Theresa: (  Mutilation?  GMing? )<br>
Theresa: "I would like to ask another question, sir.  My left pinkie as payment."<br>
Random_Nerd: "What is the question?"<br>
Theresa: "What are the Codes you live by?"<br>
*** Brian has signed off IRC (Ping timeout).<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (There's his estate, connectivity!)<br>
Theresa: (Better than us meeting the Imperator of Typos.  We'd pay the Locust Court to take him out...)<br>
Random_Nerd: "Hmm... shall I answer that?  Oh, yes, I suppose so."<br>
*** lazarus has joined #nobilis.<br>
Etheric: (It's probably in the Library.)<br>
Theresa: (We asked...oh crap, we asked the Aides, not the Library.  *facepalm*)<br>
Random_Nerd: "Give no knowledge without a price.  Fairly reward a sacrifice made to gain knowledge.  Open the way for new ideas from Outside."<br>
Theresa: *blink*<br>
Theresa: *blink blink*<br>
Theresa: (Aha!  Of course!)<br>
Random_Nerd: "Your finger, please."<br>
Theresa: (Because the Excrucians came in at the end of his age!)<br>
Random_Nerd: (And the Wildlords came in during it.)<br>
* Theresa chops off her left pinkie and drops it into the finger food.<br>
Etheric: (He probably knows why the Excrucians came!  Maybe?)<br>
lazarus: "Open the way... um, sir, you may be interested in a research trip I have planned..." (ok for scene cut here, for me)<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl hands over another cloth, then taps his sphere again.<br>
Random_Nerd: "Numbers.  Will you let your sister pay all the prices of your own curiosity?"<br>
Theresa: "By that last, it would imply that you are the sourse of the holes in the Wall that let our Imperator in.  For that, at least, I thank you."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Hi Tpyo!)<br>
lazarus: "I would not let her do anything I would be unwilling to do."<br>
* Theresa quietly thanks Sam for the cloth bits.  Hope I clot soon.<br>
* Theresa mutters, "You'd be stuck with two hands full of pinkies in a year after your talk, Brian..."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (Come to think of it, Consequences should meet Prophecy)<br>
Random_Nerd: (What makes you think he hasn't?)<br>
Random_Nerd: "Do you have any more questions?"<br>
lazarus: "Anyway, about my research trip, I have recently learned that there's some shielding possible against the effects of being Outside on Nobles, and have started to plan an excursion."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Interesting.  If you can discover the nature of what is outside and why we cannot discover it, I will sell you one of my eyes for that knowledge."<br>
lazarus: "I have no more questions at this time - how could I summon you in the future if I need any questions answered for that trip?"<br>
lazarus: "Also, I would accept knowledge in payment for knowledge."<br>
Random_Nerd: "The same method as before.  Burn my flower and call my name, and I will come for you."<br>
* Theresa bows.  "We thank you for your time and information, sir."<br>
Random_Nerd: "And I do not trade knowledge for knowledge.  The price for knowledge is pain and diminishment."<br>
lazarus: (... ... *wonders if Bloody Mary exists in this gameworld*)<br>
Random_Nerd: "Shall I send you back to your little world?"<br>
lazarus: "I believe we're done."<br>
Theresa: "We would appreciate it, sir. We shall need to confer with the rest of our Family."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Very well.  I will go."<br>
lazarus: "Thank you."<br>
Theresa: "Journey well."<br>
Random_Nerd: The world inverts again, with a feeling rather like living your life backwards at high speed while simultaneously experiencing the effects of every drug mentioned in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.<br>
Theresa: (That's a lot of drugs.()<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl unceremoniously hits the grass...<br>
Theresa: "You..okay, Sam?"<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: "I'm all right, Domina.  Was ... enjoying the lack of gravity a bit..."<br>
Random_Nerd: You lie on your backs in the Diplomacy Grove, jaws and mouths sore as if you've been gibbering madly for an hour, and Theresa still bleeds from the places where she used to have three fingers.<br>
* Samuel_Dionyl wraps Theresa's wounds...<br>
Theresa: "Thank you, Sam."  *sits up gingerly*<br>
Theresa: "Well, we should probably tell the others and the boss what we found out."<br>
lazarus: "I've relayed information as we went on."<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: (to Carr-Eve, right?)<br>
lazarus: (yep)<br>
lazarus: (and, as a side effect, to the boss)<br>
Theresa: "Ahh, good."<br>
Etheric: (Ah, that's true.)<br>
Samuel_Dionyl: Dante, through Carrie: "Is Theresa all right?"<br>
Theresa: "Did we get any feedback?  I hope the boss might have liked the info on the source of the holes that he came into the Universe from."<br>
lazarus: (rh) "Not as alright as I'd like to see, but she assures me she's fine."<br>
Theresa: *if she hears the question*  "I can count in base seven now...if I knew how to."<br>
*** Etheric is now known as Carrie.<br>
*** lazarus is now known as Brian.<br>
* Carrie relays the question and answer, appearing preoccupied to Dante.<br>
*** Samuel_Dionyl is now known as DanteE.<br>
DanteE: "The secrets of the universe cost fingers?"<br>
Brian: "... apparently.  And he's willing to sell me some eyes in return for what we can learn Outside."<br>
* Carrie just sets up a ghost miracle to put Dante's voice into the RH.<br>
Theresa: *mumurs*  "Actually, it costs visible body parts...fingers are the easy ones.  Eyeballs, ears if you have short hair, boobs would have been easier..."<br>
DanteE: "All right, now what do we do with this?"<br>
Carrie: (Trying to find what information Brian relayed specifically -- do I know about the comment on my vision yet?)<br>
* DanteE mulls over the boobs remark for a moment...<br>
Brian: (um.  Brian would have relayed all answers, and that comment too)<br>
DanteE: "So... it's Attaris who determines when the age ends?"<br>
Random_Nerd: (At least, if there's no Fourth Age Imperator.)|<br>
Random_Nerd: (Context implied that that was not the way it would normally be.)<br>
Brian: "Seems that way.  Though, he did state that an Age Estate governs everything between the start and the end ... and, um, crap, I forgot to ask the clarification of 'inclusive' or 'exclusive'.  Should've caught that earlier."<br>
DanteE: "He said without Ananda, it's Attaris' decision, right?"<br>
Brian: "Yes."<br>
Carrie: "I would think that the transition between Ages would be a thing of both Estates.  What that means in practice, well...  I'm honestly not sure."<br>
DanteE: "William... remind me how the last transition happened."<br>
Brian: "... hang on a sec, it doesn't make sense for it to include the transision period both before and after - that would mean that that would be completely overlapped.  So, the easiest way to ... *trails off into mumbling about continuous-almost-everywhere*"<br>
Carrie: "Not the transition period.  The moment of transition.  Where one Age ends and the next begins."<br>
Random_Nerd: William: "Let's see.  The Excrucians stormed the gates of Heaven, bearing Colbrand, and slaying the guardian.  The Phenoix Family died and was reborn.  And the new age began."<br>
Carrie: "I seem to remember that zero is a whole number."<br>
Brian: (it would be neat if the Ages of Creation were continuous almost-everywhere :p)<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "I believe that the exact moment of transition happened with the death of the Phoenix, which in turn happened just after Ymera Attaris became Ymera Attaris Ebrot Appeka and Ymera Ebrot Appeka died."<br>
Random_Nerd: (Oh, and remember that in the Spirit World, the old Ages still exist.)<br>
DanteE: "Who was Ebrot Appeka again?"<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "An Angel.  One of those who fell with Lucifer.  Imperator of the Third Age."<br>
DanteE: "... then who was Attaris before becoming the 3rd age?"<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "A Magister of the WIld."<br>
* DanteE mulls that over...<br>
Carrie: "..Someone tried what Barakiel wants to do, didn't they?  And it failed."<br>
DanteE: "The only ones who would do that would be the Excrucians..."<br>
Theresa: "It's kind of weird...the first Age Imperator was an Old God, Second was a New God which were born before the Fall.  Third was a Fallen, then a Wildlord...it's like each time the Imperator is 'new type'...  *woozy*"<br>
DanteE: "Uhoh."<br>
DanteE: "Is it possible... Attaris is a Mimic?"<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "I sincerely hope not."<br>
Theresa: "Oh, that's a new one."<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "Ymera Attaris Ebrot Appeka is very powerful."<br>
DanteE: "Right... he 'took over' for an Angel, and his Age has been marked by the War."<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "Ananda is a mighty Imperator, and his age has not yet come.  Jan Ben Jan is mighty even among gods of the First Age, and his age is over."<br>
Theresa: "Creating a Mimic wouldn't change your heritage, though..."<br>
Random_Nerd: (Theresa is correct, there.)<br>
Theresa: "She would still be Fallen, not Wild."<br>
Brian: (*puts on Transformers :D*)<br>
* Theresa falls back flat.  *murmurs*  "'m glad he mentioned about Carrie's Vision.  That was nice of him..."<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "Correct, as I understand the process."<br>
DanteE: "OK, then why isn't Ebrot Appeka in charge?"<br>
Brian: "Doesn't exist anymore?"<br>
DanteE: "And they fighured someone had to run things, so Attaris stepped up?"<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "Ymera Ebrot Appeka crumbled to dust at the end of the Second Age."<br>
Theresa: "Was everyone expecting Fallen Ebrot to be the Third Imperator?"<br>
Brian: "I have no idea what was up with that."<br>
Brian: "I suspect that knowledge is Outside somewhere"<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "As I understand it, nobody had to 'let' Attaris Ebrot Appeka take charge.  She just /was/, and still is, the Imperator of the Third Age."<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "This would be so even if the other Imperators didn't want to acknowledge it."<br>
DanteE: "OK, I think I've got it...<br>
Theresa: "'s like how you're Numbers.  You just _are_ Numbers, no one else can be Numbers unless Kudzu says diff..."<br>
Brian: "Yeah, but as I understand it, no one has that power over Imperators"<br>
DanteE: "Wait, no I don't.  I still don't get how QAttaris and Ebrot 'merged'."<br>
Random_Nerd: W: "We don't know that either."<br>
DanteE: "Ah.<br>
DanteE: "OK, we know Barakiel saw that...<br>
DanteE: "He must have figured the changing of the age hinged on Attaris... which makes sense.<br>
DanteE: "Therefore, eliminating Ananda means no new age-change.<br>
DanteE: "But now, Jan Ben Jan says the changing of the age would hinge on Attaris and/or an Imperator To Be Named Later in Ananda's absence."<br>
Random_Nerd: S: "Makes me wonder what would have happened if Jan Ben Jan didn't like the whole weird Attaris thing."<br>
Brian: "That seems to agree.  Killing Ananda would not lock us into this age, whatever Barakiel thinks."<br>
* Theresa hmms at Sam, looking at the pretty clouds.  "Well, from what he was saying, he had to agree to let the Third Age happen, right?"<br>
DanteE: "Let's run this by Consequences and Shadows, then we can figure out how to convince Barakiel/"<br>
Brian: "We'll head back there, and meet you in Barakiel's Chancel again."<br>
Brian: "Boss?"<br>
Random_Nerd: No visible response from Kudzu.<br>
DanteE: (that's a little odd...)<br>
Brian: "We'll be heading back to Barakiel's Chancel now.  Let us know if you want anything before we head off."<br>
Theresa: (Cut scene?)<br>
Brian: (good for me)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Works for me.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Cut to everyone in the PC's suite in Locus Barakiel?)<br>
DanteE: (OK.)<br>
Brian: (sure)<br>
Carrie: (Works for me.)<br>
*** Carrie is now known as Eve.<br>
* Eve will have switched sometime before the others got back.<br>
* Theresa wil be wiggling her hands off and on, to get used to it.  (Can I have stopped bleeding by now?)<br>
Brian: "Hello again, Eve.  Dante."<br>
DanteE: (You could probably have twig-fingers)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Sure, you're durant.  Bleeding's stopped.)<br>
DanteE: "Hi..."<br>
Brian: (no, that would break the bond, Dante)<br>
* DanteE looks over Theresa's hands...<br>
* Eve nods to Brian, a slight smile on her face.<br>
DanteE: (Didn' he say you could have obviously artificial replacements?)<br>
DanteE: (just not natural ones)<br>
Brian: (don't believe so?)<br>
Theresa: "Yep, this is the price Jan Ben Jan asked for.  Worth it."<br>
Random_Nerd: (Yeah.  Twigs could work, as long as they're not magical moving twigs that work just like fingers.)<br>
Theresa: (Which wouldn't be worth the Creation.)<br>
Theresa: "It's the sacrifice that was important to him.  So I should honor that gift."<br>
DanteE: (That and the 'Ask me about my amputations!' button.)<br>
DanteE: "Just hope we don't wind up with 47 more questions...heh ..."<br>
Theresa: (I think that's more of a 'hey, get my name out more and maybe I'll be able to redo my Chancel deck in boobs.'  Oh, hey, remembered something...isn't the ship of the dead at the Norse end of the world supposed to be made of dead-men's fingernails?)<br>
DanteE: (So, what did Consequences say?)<br>
*** Brian has signed off IRC (Connection reset by peer).<br>
DanteE: (You channeling Ed Gein on me, Theresa? :) )<br>
Random_Nerd: (Uh, you're not with Consequences at the moment.)<br>
Theresa: (We haven't talked to Conseq, yet?)<br>
*** lazarus has joined #nobilis.<br>
Theresa: (Ed Gein?)<br>
Theresa: (re Laz)<br>
Eve: (Heh, that makes me think of Rook Catchfly offering that body part to JBJ and him saying, "Nope, not obvious enough.")<br>
DanteE: (WB Laz)<br>
DanteE: (Theresa: the real-life 'inspiration' for Leatherface and Hannibal)<br>
lazarus: (heh)<br>
Theresa: (Ah.  Huh.)<br>
DanteE: (Scratch that... he 'inspired' Buffalo Bill, Norm Bates, and Leatherface.)<br>
Theresa: (Were we going to have Conseq. come in or were you talking to him before we came back, Dante?)<br>
DanteE: (Anyhoo... I probably would have charged over and talked with Consequences while they were en route.)<br>
Theresa: (And what does Carrie-Eve think of the hi from JBJ?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Okay, let's cut to a scene with C, then, okay?0<br>
Random_Nerd: )<br>
Eve: (She's rather tickled but isn't showing it much.)<br>
lazarus: (fine with me :))<br>
Eve: (And sure, that works.)<br>
Theresa: (Sure!  I shall be quiet in the peanut gallery.  :) )<br>
Random_Nerd: Consequences; "Ah, hello again.  Ah... what happened to your fingers, Theresa?"<br>
Theresa: (I thought this was while Brian and Theresa are in route.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Or, is this before Theresa got back?)<br>
DanteE: (Dante's the impulsive type, remember?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Ah, okay, cut that.)<br>
DanteE: (She did! (rimshot))<br>
Random_Nerd: C looks up from his operating table.  "Hello, Dante."<br>
DanteE: "Consequences.  Barakiel's plan can't work, and now we know why."<br>
DanteE: "Theresa and Brian have been talking to Jan Ben Jan."<br>
Random_Nerd: "Ah?"<br>
DanteE: "They can tell you more when they return...<br>
DanteE: (How long is the trip[, BTW?)<br>
DanteE: "But... without Ananda, Attaris can end the age any time she wants.<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "And therefore?"<br>
DanteE: "The details weren't clear... but it's possible Ananda is actually _preventing_ the Age from changing until its time.<br>
Random_Nerd: (Uh... I don't quite see where you're getting that.)<br>
lazarus: (neither do i.  But when has Dante ever made stuff up like that before?...)<br>
DanteE: "Jan Ben Jan says that without Ananda, the decision to end the age rests entirely with Attaris...<br>
DanteE: "... and she's a Wildlord.  She probably wants to chuck the position and retire to Bora Bora every few minutes."<br>
Theresa: (Is Eve with Dante?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (What he said was that if Ananda was dead, Attaris could choose to extend the Third Age.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Eve can be if she wants to.)<br>
Eve: (No she would have stayed in the room.)<br>
DanteE: "But the point is... eliminating Ananda won't prevent the Age from coming.  It'd just have someone else make the decision.<br>
Random_Nerd: (And that's going exactly against what JBJ said.  If Ananda is dead, the Fourth Age definitely won't come.)<br>
DanteE: "And... if there's no designated Imperator of the Fifth Age... then we don't know who'd be in charge when Attaris decides to pack it in."<br>
DanteE: (OK, I'm taking up a sub-Domain of Seeing Shit That Isn't There. :) )<br>
Random_Nerd: (Okay, was I unclear about those things that Jan said?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Because Dante's talking a load of crap here, near as I can tell.)<br>
lazarus: (... nope ...)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Is Dante supposed to be lying to Consequences?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (If so, that cost a miracle point.)<br>
DanteE: (Nope.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Then I don't get it.)<br>
DanteE: (but isn't that right?  If no Ananda, then the decision whether to continue or end the age rests entirely with Attaris, and unless there's a designated 5th Age Imperator, there's nobody to take over?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Well, if there's no Ananda, then when the time for the next age to come /comes/, if Attaris wants to, she can hang on.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (But he's not /preventing/ the next age from coming.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (And eliminating Ananda /will/ prevent the Fourth Age from coming.)<br>
DanteE: (ohhhhh... OK, I read something different in what JBJ said...<br>
lazarus: (but it won't necessarily prevent any subsequent Age)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Which part is the problem?  I could try to explain it differently if that helps.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Correct, Laz.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (If and only if there is an Imperator of the Fifth Age.)<br>
DanteE: (I saw, Ananda is preventing Attaris from leaving.<br>
DanteE: (You're saying, Ananda is setting the stage for Attaris to leave... rrrgh.<br>
Random_Nerd: (The third age will not end until the right time comes, at the soonest.)<br>
DanteE: (More to the point: I saw, Ananda is preventing Attaris from leaving _now_.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (If the imperator of the next age isn't there, then Attaris can choose to try to hold on to her authority, and keep the third age going longer than it would have.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (And that's just not the case.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Attaris can only leave now by having the Third Age be Excruciated, or by dying.)<br>
DanteE: (OK, can we back up a bit?)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Okay.)<br>
DanteE: "Jan Ben Jan says that without Ananda, the decision to end the age rests entirely with Attaris...<br>
DanteE: "Rather than the calendar.<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "Interesting.  How does that work?"<br>
DanteE: "Without Ananda, the Third Age can continue, at her discretion, maybe for another thousand years...<br>
DanteE: "Which means 1000 more years of the War."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "So, if we kill Ananda, and get Attaris on our side, we can keep the turning of the age from happening as long as we need to?"<br>
Theresa: (Urk.)<br>
DanteE: "you _want_ more War?"<br>
DanteE: "If Attaris was on our side we wouldn't have a War, would we?"<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "Uh, the whole idea is to keep the turn of the Age from happening.  We don't think that the stop of the Third Age will end the war."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "The end of the Second Age didn't end the Fall, after all."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "And I don't believe that Attaris has the power to stop the War."<br>
DanteE: "But the Third Age has _been_ the War!<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "The power of the ruling Imperator is great, but I don't believe it's absolute omnipotence.  And the Excrucians are many and strong, and most of them are in places our miracles can't reach."<br>
DanteE: "Another thousand years of War means our domains erode to nothing!"<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "The War started in the Second Age, though.  And we believe that it almost did in the time before the First Age, but the Creator bought time."<br>
DanteE: "Not to mention everything else...<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "We're getting better at defending Estates, though.  And new ones do come into being.  If we can slow the pace down enough, we can keep Creation going forever."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "What we fear is that some massive cataclysm happens at the end of this Age just as in the last ones, and the Excrucians take that chance to gut the world."<br>
DanteE: "Do you know who the Imperator of the Fifth Age is?"<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "Is there one?  I'm not aware if there is."<br>
DanteE: "Which means it could easily be an Excrucian... <br>
DanteE: "Or, one could jump into the power vacuum created by Ananda's death."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "I don't think it works that way.  If the Estate was held by them, then the Fifth Age would happen Outside, not here."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "Estates that the Excrucians took aren't instantiated in Creation."<br>
DanteE: "Doesn't the existence of Mimics throw that off?<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "Mimics' original Estates are lost to us."<br>
Random_Nerd: C: "They just have tatters and shards of the parts of them that overlapped with other estates, that they use to pretend to be ordinary Imperators."<br>
Random_Nerd: (Should we call it a night soon?)<br>
DanteE: (Well, we're screwed.  I'm gonna go hide in a fucking bunker.)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Huh?)<br>
Theresa: (My brain's dead.)<br>
lazarus: (Thanks, Dante :p)<br>
Random_Nerd: (Okay, I'm calling it, then.)<br>
Random_Nerd: ________________STOP______________<br>
Random_Nerd: Okay, thoughts?<br>
lazarus: fun :)<br>
*** DanteE is now known as Knockwood.<br>
*** Eve is now known as Etheric.<br>
*** You are now known as BethE.<br>
Etheric: I enjoyed the session too, even if I was too out of it to really participate much.<br>
Knockwood: Apparently my brain doesn't work.<br>
BethE: Was it too out of character for Theresa to take on the cuttings?<br>
Random_Nerd: You know your character better than we do.<br>
lazarus: nope.  Fully in-character in my impression<br>
Knockwood: Dante would be a torso after a few minutes... :)<br>
BethE: To Theresa, she thought of it as Plants: that many domesticated plants/fruit trees/vines do better with pruning.  Now, that she's away from JBJ, the human part of her is a little in shock.<br>
Random_Nerd: So, Knock, had you misunderstood what their plan was?<br>
Knockwood: Probably.<br>
Knockwood: In fact, laz may have misunderstood what JBJ said...<br>
lazarus: seems like the Dante thing to have done, though, and so I'm not upset.<br>
lazarus: and kwd: hm?<br>
Knockwood: so, does what he said vindicate Barakiel's plan?<br>
Random_Nerd: In some ways.<br>
lazarus: not totally.<br>
Random_Nerd: Not utterly, but some.<br>
lazarus: it's pretty much exactly what I was arguing.  That is, that killing Ananda kills that /specific/ Age, but other than that, we have no real implications.<br>
Knockwood: So, Barakiel is actually right, and we have to either change his plan to something not-right, or go home and tell Kudzu we didn't change his mind?  We're dead, next clone.<br>
Random_Nerd: Well, he's right about some things.<br>
Random_Nerd: But, for instance, there's no proof that you're wrong about the War ending with the Third Age.<br>
Random_Nerd: There's no proof that the end of the Third Age will have a cataclysm.<br>
lazarus: kwd: he's actually not right.<br>
Random_Nerd: There's no proof that, if there is one, stopping the Fourth Age would stop the bad part at the end of the Third.<br>
Random_Nerd: And so on.<br>
lazarus: he's right in some ways.  Unfortunately he's missed a lot.<br>
Knockwood: laz: how is he not right?<br>
Random_Nerd: *points*<br>
Knockwood: then somebody has to lose more fingers<br>
lazarus: kwd: tell me when the cataclysm hits.  Specifically: the Fall happened /before/ the end of the First Age.  The War started /before/ the end of the Second Age.  Ages embody everything from beginning to end.  Therefore, includes these cataclysms.<br>
Random_Nerd: Yep.<br>
BethE: It ain't over till the phoenix croaks?<br>
Random_Nerd: Correct.<br>
lazarus: (I'm still a little hazy on the boundary points, though)<br>
Knockwood: That'd support killing Ananda and delaying the cataclysm for another 1000 years<br>
lazarus: ah, but the part that's missing from that is that we don't know at this point if there is an Imperator of the Fifth Age.  We also only have JBJ's word that if there's no Imperator of a subsequent Age, it won't happen.<br>
Knockwood: Which supports my argument... the 5th age might wind up belonging to someone opposed to Creation.<br>
Knockwood: but Consequences and Barakiel have already rejected that argument.<br>
BethE: True, but we don't know that Ananda is opposed to Creation.<br>
Knockwood: he is on the Council of Four<br>
Random_Nerd: So's Entropy.<br>
Knockwood: if he is opposed, that'd mean the other 3 don't know--unlikely--of all 4 are against Creation, which means we're dead.<br>
Knockwood: *or<br>
Random_Nerd: Be aware that reasoning by "I'll treat X as if it's false, because if it /is/ true, we're boned." is /exactly/ how Barakiel came up with /his/ plan.<br>
Knockwood: We're boned, QED.<br>
Random_Nerd: That was one of the main reasoning methods I used for devising it.<br>
lazarus: I like the complete holes in the logic, and that he's all "lalalaIcan'thearyou!" about it :D<br>
Random_Nerd: Yeah.  It's supposed to be the plan of someone who's smart but biased.<br>
Knockwood: which means we can't convince him otherwise, so we're boned.  Next clone.<br>
lazarus: I do seriously believe we're not actually playing Paranoia in disguise here.<br>
lazarus: I could be wrong, though :p<br>
Random_Nerd: I'm sure there are ways you can successfully deal with this situation.<br>
Random_Nerd: I'm not certain what they are, but I'm sure you'll come up with something.<br>
lazarus: I fully believe we can do it.<br>
lazarus: Brian believes that Logic Will Save  Him Now!<br>
lazarus: ... for all he abandons it at the first sight of, well, anything.<br>
Knockwood: maybe our next clones will be Orange clearance<br>
lazarus: I'm going for UV, myself.<br>
Random_Nerd: Anyway, it's ten past midnight here.<br>
Random_Nerd: My brain is past due to turn into a pumpkin.<br>
Random_Nerd: G'night, guys.
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-[[Chancel_Amyra]]<br>
-[[Amyra:Chapter_10|Chapter 10]]
-<br><br>
 lazarus: for Eth: Excruciating the Power of Coffee: "We've replaced his Estate with Folger's Crystals.  Let's see if he notices."<br>
 BethE: Hi Etheric!  *HUG*<br>
@@ Line 608: / Line 605: @@
 Random_Nerd: My brain is past due to turn into a pumpkin.<br>
 Random_Nerd: G'night, guys.
-<br><br>
-[[Chancel_Amyra]]<br>
-[[Amyra:Chapter_10|Chapter 10]]