Editing Talk:TROS in the Hammer:Magic Spirits

Please post any comments about this material here. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 08:01, 23 August 2006 (PDT)
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When making a spell you specifically say that there can be no other nouns or verbs in the phrase. Your examples imply that no other adjectives or adverbs can be used either. Is this a correct assumption? [[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 18:55, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

:For a charm (the equivalent of a spell of one) you are correct.  Only two words (verb noun).  For a power (the equivalent of a spell of three) or a weaving (the equivalent of a spell of many) you can use any number of words, and although you choose them as nouns/verbs, you can twist them into adjectives or adverbs for the purpose.  Example: My word is the noun "Fire".  I can use this as "Flaming" (adjective) in a power or weaving, but not in a charm (as I can only use one noun and one verb.  However, an innovation just occurred to me that will make things a bit more obvious.  I will add it to the main page, but here it is in a nutshell: whenever you want to make an effect, you write an English language sentence for that effect.  The sentence can include words for targets, range, volume, and duration (the four components of the target number), any number of "connecting" type words (with, then, a, the, and, etc.), and a number of your own quality words appropriate to whether it is a charm, power, or weaving.  Frankly, I wrote these rules in one stream of consciousness fit, and they need more thought.  Whats really needed is for other people to come up with examples of both quality lists for spirits and ways to combine the words into charms, powers, and weavings, and most importantly HOW THEY RELATE TO ACTUAL GAME EFFECTS, so that the implications of them can be thought through a bit.  [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 06:11, 25 August 2006 (PDT)
:: Thanks Hans, I have been trying to decide what words to use for Peregrine, maybe doing some examples might help. So far I have Peregrine; control, mind, speed, heal, movement, percieve, pain, strengthen. Your changes will help me make up spell examples which I will be adding soon.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 07:00, 25 August 2006 (PDT)
:::WOW, I love those words.  Thats 8 - two free, and your 6 proficiency points.  Which would be your primary?  I freely admit I have no idea how this will work in practice; I cribbed the idea from Donjon and Ars Magica.  The hard part is going to be implementing the words into actual game mechanics, especially in terms of magnitude.  But looking at that list of words I'm pretty darn excited.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 07:23, 25 August 2006 (PDT)
::::One example and some spell sentences which I plan to work on. Just putting words together so far. I haven't decided which is the primary yet, right now I'm leading toward control. I changed healing and strength to verbs. BTW can a verb be changed to a noun in a more complex spell or vice versa? 
::::'''I control the mind of that man.''' For complete control of a human targets mind, no resistance roll. This is a level 3 Conquer effect, Area 0 (only one target and mind is considered Area 0), Range 2 (line of sight), Target 3(animal). I'm not completely sure how duration works, so for now this is an instantaneous effect but it can be sustained by not recovering magic pool dice used to cast it. CTN 8 (or 7 if mind or control are primary). 
::::'''Things I'm working on''', I heal myself. I strengthen the perception of my mind. I speed my movement. I control his/it's movement. I control the lock. I speed the boat. I strenghen my perception. I control his pain. I control the speed of his movement. For some of these I'm not sure of the grammar, you can let me know what I can get away with. [[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 21:44, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

:::::Thanks for these examples; they give me something to work with that isn't from my own mind.  I will try to convert each of these into actual mechanics, and hopefully in the process come up with a general mechanic for that purpose.  If a word could be phrased as a noun or verb (strength, strengthen) I'm thinking it can be used as either in a Power or Weaving.  In a charm, it must be used as you actually word it in your list.

:::::Some comments on your examples: "I control the mind of that man" is awesome; the mechanics seem right as well to me.  "I heal pain in myself" would work; its exact game mechanic effects are unclear to me at the moment, but it would certainly be useful.  "I speed my movement" - to the point, love it.  "I control his/its movement" - love it, not exactly sure how it would be different from "I control the speed of his movement".  "I control his pain" - BOY do I love it.  "I heal myself", "I speed the boat", "I control the lock" - none of these work,  only one word (a verb) used in each".  

:::::One particular grouping of sentences warrants more attention.  "I strengthen the perception of my mind" is very interesting.  Seemingly, it is not that different from "I strengthen my perception."  However, it is actually quite different, because under your current words you cannot use "I strengthen my perception" as a charm, as you have perceive listed as a verb, not a noun.  "I strengthen the perception of my mind", however, lets you get roughly the same effect; it just requires you to do it as a Power (and those take longer at it).

:::::One particular word that warrants comment; speed.  This word can be both a verb and a noun without modification of its spelling, and I'm inclined to say that is fine; its an exception to the rule.  Therefore, you can use both "I control his speed" and "I speed his movement".

:::::On primary words and words in general.  If you want to be a Falcon spirit, you are going to have to choose Falcon as a word.  That's the bottom line.  However, you can choose a broader word (i.e. Birds) and make Falcon subordinate to that at no extra cost [written as Birds (Falcon)].  If you want to be a Falcon spirit, Falcon must be your primary; whatever you make your primary is the kind of spirit you are.  You get one primary for free, and can use proficiency points to make other words primary as well.  The bonus for these primaries would stack.  For example, for six proficiency points you could have could be Birds ('''Falcon'''), '''Control''', Mind, Heal, Movement, Percieve, Strengthen.  This drops "pain" in favor of making "control" primary as well as Falcon, and drops "speed" in order to keep you a Falcon spirit. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 11:11, 28 August 2006 (PDT)
Interesting! I'm not exactly sure how to use bird or falcon as an effect in a spell, especially charms. e.g. I heal his bird, I percieve his bird, I strenghen it's bird, I speed it's bird. Seems kind of strange. I could use Falcon as the target word but that has no effect on the spell (except reducing the target number and making some charms possible that would not be otherwise, such as I heal the falcon, I speed the falcon, I strengthen the falcon.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 20:24, 28 August 2006 (PDT)

:Peregrine IS a Falcon spirit.  You can't say "I heal myself"; only one word.  But "I heal the Falcon" is equivalent.  As to Bird as a word (isn't that a song?), how about "I control that bird" to make a a sparrow distract an enemy, or "I control and strengthen those birds" to get a flock of mighty geese to attack your enemies.  Or "I percieve the mind of those birds" might let you see what they see, or at least know what they know; convenient if they are pigeons roosting in the battlements of an enemy castle.  [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 07:14, 29 August 2006 (PDT)
:: A more complicated charm.
:: I strengthen the Falcon. To make Peregrine increase his strength by 1 point per success? This is a level 3 sculpture effect + a level 2 conquer effect, target 3(animal), range 0(self), volume 2(I'd say 1 for Falcon form but for the wingspan), once again I am unsure about how duration works so this charm would be instantaneous. CTN 8(7 because Falcon is primary)[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 12:19, 31 August 2006 (PDT)
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Can spirits cast constant and dormant spells? [[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 11:33, 31 August 2006 (PDT)
-------------------------------------------------------There seems to be some controversy on the TROS forum on how instantaneous spells work. Some people seem to think that once an instantaneous spell changes an object etc. that object stays changed until someone uses a spell to change it back. Others seem to believe that everything directly changed by a spell changes back as soon as the spell duration is over. Still others seem to believe that if the direct result of the spell could be accomplished naturally then the effect is permanent, but if it was unnatural then the effect ends at the expiry of the spell. I am of the opinion that any changes made to a target directly by a spell should change back once the spell is over. All the indirect effects would be permanent. I hope this makes some sense to you.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 12:19, 31 August 2006 (PDT)
:Here is my rule - spirits cannot do constant or dormant charms/powers/weavings.  Either a charm, power, or weaving acheives its effect instantly, or it must be maintained by the spirit creating it.  Here is the reason I love this rule; it means that for every pseudo-permanent magical effect there must be a spirit somewhere constantly maintaining it.  Magic sword?  Has a spirit inside of it that is maintaining the "kill people real good" effect.  Magic lantern?  has a spirit inside it maintaining the flame effect.  Want your totem spirit to keep the rains coming to water the fields?  Thats fine, but it might not be able to also heal your sick and wounded because of all those Power Pool dice tied up in the rain-making.  This really tickles me pink.  
:As to what counts and instant and what counts as maintained, my rule will be that anything that requires "tending" must be maintained.  By tending I mean constant adjustment, modification, or concentration to continue.  Using Mind control as the venue of interest...
:*Implant a memory in someone, or remove a simple memory from someone - Instant for very simple memories, maintained for more complicated ones.  Maintained not because they will go back to their previous memories when the spell is up, but because it is difficult to rewrite memories and takes some time, the rule of thumb being maintain the spell for 1/100th of the duration of the experience that would have generated the memory, if less than a couple of seconds, it is instant.  So lets say you want to implant a memory in my head that I killed my best friend.  If you just want to implant the image in my mind of the knife sinking home in my friend's breast, while I stare into the horror in his eyes, that is instant.  If you want to have a whole set of events leading up to the killing (say, a day's worth), that's 86400 seconds worth of editing, or 864 seconds (14 and a half minutes) worth of maintaining you will have to do.  However, once the maintaining is over, the spell is permanent; the memories have been created.  Destorying memories is easier, if you don't want to actually replace them with anything and just leave a big blank; that is always instantaneous...call that 1/1000th of the duration of the memories themselves.
*Implant a simple suggestion or urge - Instant or maintained, depending on whether the urge is simple or complicated.  By simple I mean something that can be acheived or dealt with in a fairly short amount of time and that is not far from the sorts of things they might be inclined to do anyway. Examples include most distractions ("Wow, those serving girls are hot, I think I will go talk to them and ignore my guard post"), abrupt phyiscal actions ("Wow, I want to hit my officer right NOW!"), he person gets a willpower roll to resist of some variety, and if they fail they act on the suggestion or urge as they would if it had come from their own mind naturally.  More complicated urges may require maintenance because they are really a SERIES of urges/suggestions.
:*Give a person a dream or vision or otherwise screw with their perceptions - maintained, for the most part, for as long as you want the screwing to continue.
:*Making someone your puppet - maintained, for as long as they are your puppet.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 08:54, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
:: So, by your definition, shaping a boulder into a bridge would be instant, making a weakling into a body builder would be instant, turning a human into a frog would be instant.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 18:08, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 :*Give a person a dream or vision or otherwise screw with their perceptions - maintained, for the most part, for as long as you want the screwing to continue.
 :*Making someone your puppet - maintained, for as long as they are your puppet.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 08:54, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
+:: So, by your definition, shaping a boulder into a bridge would be instant, making a weakling into a body builder would be instant, turning a human into a frog would be instant.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 18:08, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
-:: So, by your definition would shaping a boulder into a bridge be instant, making a weakling into a body builder  be instant, healing a wound, turning a human into a frog  be instant? [[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 18:08, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
-::: Depends.  Lets take the healing first.  This is instant, to a point.  I will probably have to put limits on what can be healed with a charm (i.e. a spells of one) without maintainance, with more significant healing requiring power (i.e. spells of three).  Once the healing is complete, it is permanent, and need not be maintained.  But there is a minimum amount of time it will take to heal serious wounds, which can occur before, during, or after casting.  If person has a pelvis fractured into a hundred pieces, for example, it's going to take several minutes to heal this, regardless of the spell you cast.  Human to frog?  Probably not possible at all; were you planning on trying this?  Build a boulder into a bridge...maintained, if the bridge itself was not a stable structure.  However, if the bridge was completely stable, it would not need to be maintained.  Making a weakling into a body builder...this is a very good one.  I'm thinking there are two ways of doing this.  Way #1 is maintained, and much simpler.  In Way #1 you are not REALLY altering the musculature of the person, you are just "strengthening them".  Way #2 is more like healing, and would require words ike "alter", "strength", "flesh", "heal" etc.  Using these words, you COULD make a permanent change in a person's strength, up to the 10 limit.
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-I skimmed over the sorcery rules since Sunday's game. Here is a list of the other things I did wrong.
-. Meditation can only be used for spells of many. Failure does not change the target number.
-. Magic sounds are Form vs skill target (not spell target) the skill can be anything from ritual magic to musical instrument. Failure does not change the target number.
-. Magic movements are Form vs skill target (not spell target) the skill can be anything from ritual magic to symbol drawing to dancing. Failure does not change the target number.
-Bearing these things in mind, would it be possible for me to have increased ritual magic instead of meditation? [[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 17:12, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
-:By all means, makes sense to me. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 13:35, 28 September 2006 (PDT)
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-It looks like you can sustain a spell with no dice. This makes sense to me, especially given the fact that there are no constant and dormant spells in this campaign.
-:Are you sure about this?  My understanding was that to maintain a spell you had to set aside CTN-casting successes in dice.  Now this could result in 0 dice if the CTN were low and the casting successes were hight, but it would not ALWAYS result in 0 mainantence cost. [[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 13:35, 28 September 2006 (PDT)
-::You are right. I only meant that it is possible to maintain a spell with no dice.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 18:12, 28 September 2006 (PDT)
-Mana spells sole purpose is to add spell dice to your pool when you are short and need to cast something immediately. It lasts endurance in rounds so in Peregrine's case he couldn't cast anything with a CTN greater than 6. Of course this would depend on when in the spell it is assumed that the spell pool dice are expended.[[User:Silentdaikyu|Silentdaikyu]] 17:12, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
-:We'll have to go over these things briefly when both of us have the book in front of us.  Hopefully it will be very fresh in your mind and you will be able to quickly explain this to me from the text.[[User:Skalchemist|Skalchemist]] 13:35, 28 September 2006 (PDT)