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| | [22:34] Caspian: that would seem to make it more accessible | | [22:34] Caspian: that would seem to make it more accessible |
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| − | [22:38] Caspian: lets define what this DR exalted system should od
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| − | [22:38] d4tw: i think we already have
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| − | [22:39] d4tw: kung-fu superheros.
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| − | [22:39] d4tw: which is shorthand
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| − | [22:39] Caspian: so its for a high fantasy/wuxia styled game
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| − | [22:39] d4tw: for heroes with supernatural power driven by virtue and personality
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| − | [22:40] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [22:40] d4tw: the almost-purely-virtues system we discussed last is very charming, but feels a little too rules-light
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| − | [22:40] d4tw: which is a weird thing to say
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| − | [22:40] Caspian: ok, cool, so long as that's stated
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| − | [22:40] d4tw: but if we go that route, we should totally call it "Xia"
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| − | [22:40] Caspian: mmm, well like I dunno, Ex has always been too heavy for me to get into
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| − | [22:40] Caspian: well like play
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| − | [22:40] Caspian: cause I can't see the combos
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| − | [22:40] d4tw: mmm
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| − | [22:41] d4tw: see, i have no problems understanding exalted's rules
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| − | [22:41] Caspian: aah
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| − | [22:41] d4tw: i just find them very clumsy in action
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| − | [22:41] Caspian: hmm
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| − | [22:41] Caspian: Ok, well lets steal other stuff
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| − | [22:41] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [22:41] Caspian: how does the WotG setup of kungfu work for you?
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| − | [22:41] d4tw: it's alright. i prefer the more intricate kung-fu of exalted.
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| − | [22:42] d4tw: if there's anything we preserve from exalted, i feel like the structure and "feel" of MAs is it.
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| − | [22:42] d4tw: but that is, of course, open to discussion; i'm not about to pretend i'm the HNIC here
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| − | [22:43] d4tw: the thing i love most about wotg is multiple-mojo-pool-management
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| − | [22:44] d4tw: the kung-fus themselves strike me as too brief and somewhat lacking in really solid "feel"
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| − | [22:44] Caspian: but aren't you in charge anyways David?
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| − | [22:44] d4tw: it's one thing to write really awesome flavor text and semi-generic mechanics that support it. that works for wotg.
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| − | [22:45] d4tw: i prefer to think of it as a community thing? :)
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| − | [22:45] Caspian: ok
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| − | [22:45] d4tw: especially now that we're officially divorced from exalted
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| − | [22:45] Caspian: well theres the thing with the intricacies of ex charms
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| − | [22:45] Caspian: how does this mesh with this pool system?
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| − | [22:45] d4tw: i'm not sure yet. ^_^
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| − | [22:45] d4tw: brb, need another beer.
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| − | [22:48] d4tw: mmm, fat tire
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| − | [22:48] d4tw: anyway
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| − | [22:48] d4tw: could you elaborate a bit on what you're asking?
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| − | [22:53] Caspian: well like how big are these virtue pools
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| − | [22:54] Caspian: and are certain charms powered specifically only by specific pools?
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| − | [22:54] d4tw: mmm.
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| − | [22:54] d4tw: honestly, i couldn't tell you
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| − | [22:54] d4tw: that said
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| − | [22:54] d4tw: the costing mechanism that "feels" right to me
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| − | [22:54] d4tw: is for a given fu style to be most particularly aligned with one virtue or another
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| − | [22:55] d4tw: and technique costs will be, like, "X virtue points, & 2 Valor"
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| − | [22:55] Caspian: ok so certain styles will be predisposed to certain builds
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| − | [22:56] Caspian: ok, this is wotg like, I am onboard as that goes
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| − | [22:56] d4tw: kinda, yeah
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| − | [22:56] d4tw: i'm picturing basic techniques not requiring a specific virtue
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| − | [22:57] Caspian: but super techs requiring spec virtues
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| − | [22:57] Caspian: ok
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| − | [22:57] Caspian: well back to the skills issue then
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| − | [22:57] d4tw: but forms (that's a mechanic i really like, personally; your thoughts?) and major techniques would have a cost that incl- yeah
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| − | [22:57] Caspian: youd now have to have specific skills, not linked virtue ones
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| − | [22:58] d4tw: hrm.
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| − | [22:59] d4tw: suppose we established a set of skills divided up by virtue
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| − | [22:59] d4tw: not limited by one another, though
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| − | [22:59] d4tw: but sharing a common bond manipulated by charms and suchlike
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| − | [22:59] Caspian: hmm
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| − | [22:59] Caspian: how does this look
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| − | [23:00] Caspian: for instance, shadowless sword is an example for me
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| − | [23:00] Caspian: there are 2 main swordsdudes
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| − | [23:00] Caspian: one is a swordsdude who is powered by vengeance
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| − | [23:00] Caspian: the other is a swordsdude powered by compassion
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| − | [23:00] d4tw: mmm
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| − | [23:00] Caspian: is their swordsdudery linked to their particular favored virtue?
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| − | [23:01] d4tw: i think their sword-fu is probably linked more to a discipline virtue; at least in terms of the base skill
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| − | [23:01] d4tw: BUT
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| − | [23:01] d4tw: they probably use kung-fu based on their favorite virtue
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| − | [23:01] Caspian: ah ok
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| − | [23:03] d4tw: let's lock in our virtues tonight
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| − | [23:04] d4tw: earlier, i think we were thinking in terms of exalted too much. let's stop and think "character traits that interesting protagonists often showcase"
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| − | [23:04] Caspian: 4 good virtues, 4 mirror virtues
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| − | [23:04] Caspian: are we thinking symmetry?
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| − | [23:05] ArtBadger: Mercy, Honor, Cunning, Valor, Fairness?
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| − | [23:05] d4tw: i think symmetry is elegant, but irrelevant, honestly.
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| − | [23:05] Caspian: m
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| − | [23:06] Caspian: which 8 did you use before?
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| − | [23:06] d4tw: john might be on the right track there
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| − | [23:06] d4tw: the eight i had were, like, the four exalted ones with dark mirrors
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| − | [23:06] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [23:06] Caspian: I liked that setup
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| − | [23:06] d4tw: i did, too
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| − | [23:07] d4tw: but i think it was built on erroneous premises
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| − | [23:07] Caspian: hmm
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| − | [23:07] d4tw: let's think, tho
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| − | [23:07] Caspian: ok, the goal is character traits?
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| − | [23:07] d4tw: interesting protagonists have strong will so much that i think that should be a trait outside the virtue will
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| − | [23:07] d4tw: *wheel
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| − | [23:08] Caspian: yeah, its mostly a given that heroes have pretty strong wills
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| − | [23:08] d4tw: mercy, honor, cunning, and courage are good ones. fairness feels sort of like a subset of honor.
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| − | [23:08] Caspian: ya
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| − | [23:08] Caspian: sloth is a good virtue to have too
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| − | [23:08] Caspian: so you can have sleeping buddha style stuff
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| − | [23:08] d4tw: mmm.
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| − | [23:09] d4tw: maybe that's a potential side-effect of wisdom?
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| − | [23:09] d4tw: maybe we have mercy, honor, cunning, courage, and wisdom?
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| − | [23:09] Caspian: Wisdom as a trait isn't bad
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| − | [23:09] Caspian: and do these things have dark mirrors?
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| − | [23:09] d4tw: using "wisdom" in the sort of buddha sense, i guess
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| − | [23:09] d4tw: i dunno yet, actually
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| − | [23:09] d4tw: i don't really think we need opposing virtues
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| − | [23:11] Caspian: ok
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| − | [23:11] Caspian: so 5 pools, that's workable
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| − | [23:11] d4tw: the downside, of course
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| − | [23:11] d4tw: being that /without/ opposed virtues, you don't have opposed pools
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| − | [23:11] d4tw: opposed pools means opposed kung-fu's
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| − | [23:12] Caspian: yeah, plus I'd think it'd be neat to have "corrupt virtues" for the less heroic
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| − | [23:12] d4tw: that too
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| − | [23:13] Caspian: at 10 pools thats kinda huge
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: yeah :\
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: then again
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: that means that you have a large /total/ pool
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| − | [23:14] Caspian: mmm, but what if the corrupt pool is instead of the other?
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: ooh
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: well
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: i was thinking
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: having a really big total pool
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: means you can freely use those techniques that aren't virtue-specific
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| − | [23:14] d4tw: i.e.
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| − | [23:15] d4tw: a powerful, but worldly hero who stands for nothing
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| − | [23:15] d4tw: but you incur /real/ cost when trying to use the virtue-specific effects
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| − | [23:15] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [23:15] Caspian: yeah, well that's fine
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| − | [23:15] Caspian: you can freely stand for nothing
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| − | [23:15] Caspian: but you're locked away from certain things
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: mmm.
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: well
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: i think that's kind of cool
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: you can be a very powerful hero
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: who doesn't stand for anything
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| − | [23:16] d4tw: be your own man, acknowledge no authority, whatever
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| − | [23:17] Caspian: yeah but someone may have a specific virtue style that may or maynot trump you
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| − | [23:17] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [23:17] d4tw: this encourages players to build and play characters who have a cause
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| − | [23:17] d4tw: who have a deep love for something, etc
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| − | [23:17] Caspian: which is good
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| − | [23:17] Caspian: this means when building styles virtue specific costs should be important
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| − | [23:18] d4tw: definitely
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| − | [23:18] d4tw: virtue-specific costs are our primary costing mechanism
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| − | [23:18] d4tw: in fact!
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| − | [23:18] d4tw: i'm almost inclined to say that character start with X points to distribute across the virtues
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| − | [23:18] d4tw: and when you spend XP, you don't /increase/ a virtue, you /relocate/ virtues
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| − | [23:18] Caspian: ooh, erky
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| − | [23:19] d4tw: that makes costing a lot easier, i think
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| − | [23:19] d4tw: and i think it makes virtue-specific costs more meaningful
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| − | [23:19] Caspian: huh
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| − | [23:19] Caspian: but how are you to be a powerful person who stands for nothing?
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| − | [23:19] Caspian: well I figure there should be a Max virtue
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| − | [23:20] Caspian: but the PC doesn't start at that?
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| − | [23:20] d4tw: spread your points evenly across virtues
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| − | [23:20] d4tw: mmm. maybe so
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| − | [23:20] d4tw: the rearranging thing just suddenly came to me; i really don't know how viable that is.
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| − | [23:20] Caspian: well I think it works
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| − | [23:20] Xyphoid: surely the idea is that you *can't* be a powerful person without standing for anything
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| − | [23:20] Caspian: like say you can have max 10 virtue points
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| − | [23:20] Caspian: but start with 6
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| − | [23:20] d4tw: i like that
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| − | [23:21] d4tw: xyph: well, you kind of /can/ be a powerful person without standing for anything
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| − | [23:21] Caspian: and once you've gotten your 10 you can reallocate and pass a certain cap
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| − | [23:21] Caspian: liek your virtues are limited to 3 until you relocate stuff
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| − | [23:21] d4tw: but, comparatively, someone who /does/ stand for something can probably whoop your ass
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| − | [23:21] d4tw: i like that, definitely
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| − | [23:21] d4tw: yeah; a mix of "spend to increase" and "spend to adjust"
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| − | [23:22] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [23:23] d4tw: i think we've really got something here
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| − | [23:23] Caspian: well what good thing would come out of having broad virtues?
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| − | [23:23] d4tw: the next question is, like
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| − | [23:24] d4tw: hrm. how broad?
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| − | [23:24] Caspian: like say I have my 10 pts, and the virtues are all at 2
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| − | [23:24] Caspian: what good is this (if any)
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| − | [23:25] Caspian: redundancy?
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| − | [23:25] Caspian: quicker regen?
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| − | [23:25] d4tw: mm. you meet the requisite virtue rating for tons of low/moderate techniques?
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| − | [23:25] d4tw: ooh, quicker regen!
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| − | [23:25] d4tw: maybe mojo regenerates on an exponential scale
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| − | [23:25] d4tw: that or mojo regenerates as a roleplaying reward
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| − | [23:25] d4tw: in either case, low virtues means faster regen
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| − | [23:26] Caspian: yeah like I'm thinking of the strong stand for nothing type
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| − | [23:26] Caspian: what is his benefit? besides the fact he isn't insane
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| − | [23:26] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [23:26] d4tw: he recovers his mojo easily
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| − | [23:26] Caspian: ok
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| − | [23:26] d4tw: someone with all virtues at an equal footing pretty much recovers mojo by, like, just duding around
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| − | [23:26] Caspian: mm
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: oh I see
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| − | [23:27] d4tw: someone with, like, high compassion recovers mojo by being very compassionate
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: and those with specific high virtues have to act very passionately
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: or something
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| − | [23:27] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: to get any points back
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: aah
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| − | [23:27] Caspian: ok, that I like
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| − | [23:28] *** Leumas|Away is now known as LeumasWhite.
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| − | [23:29] d4tw: i think i just had my first (and, probably, only) "revolutionary" thought
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| − | [23:29] Caspian: oh?
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| − | [23:29] d4tw: what if we abandoned the thought of character advancement in terms of power?
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| − | [23:29] d4tw: (only semi-serious, here)
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| − | [23:29] Caspian: well that makes it more of a narrative game
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| − | [23:29] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [23:29] Caspian: which by turn technically makes it lighter
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| − | [23:30] d4tw: this is true
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| − | [23:30] d4tw: but we're already moving rapidly towards a lighter system to begin with
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| − | [23:30] d4tw: anyway, to ditch that sidetrack
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| − | [23:30] d4tw: i think skills should be linked to a virtue, but not necessarily governed by it
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| − | [23:30] Xyphoid: you could let people buy enemies
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| − | [23:31] Caspian: hmm maybe like the "raw talent" die idea from WotG?
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| − | [23:31] Xyphoid: so at first, you have to fight mooks. then you can purchase nemesiseses as you go
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: xyph: yeah!
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: well
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: that's sort of what loresheets do, yeah?
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: or, at least
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: is potentially what they can do
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| − | [23:31] d4tw: and that's a mechanic i am totally okay with stealing wholesale
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| − | [23:32] Xyphoid: loresheets are great, even abstracted out somewhat
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| − | [23:32] d4tw: ijon: and yes. i think having a high related-virtue should make your fu more potent.
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| − | [23:32] d4tw: like
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| − | [23:32] d4tw: even if courage is your big virtue
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| − | [23:32] Xyphoid: in wotg they have to double as setting and character skills - but just the idea of a menu of dramatic options provided by the GM is glorious
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| − | [23:32] d4tw: if you happen to also have, say, high Discipline
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| − | [23:33] d4tw: and your sojutsu is a Discipline-linked skill
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| − | [23:33] Xyphoid: none of this integrating adventure hooks into gameplay - players choose what they want to do out of game!
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| − | [23:33] d4tw: you get a bonus on your sojutsu rolls for being clear-headed and focused
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| − | [23:33] d4tw: xyph: hee
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| − | [23:33] Caspian: sojutsu?
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| − | [23:34] d4tw: randomly chosen -jutsu?
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| − | [23:34] Caspian: oh ok
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| − | [23:34] Caspian: fair
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| − | [23:34] d4tw: yari art
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| − | [23:34] Caspian: yeah, having loresheets being built in is good
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| − | [23:34] d4tw: loresheets are too good a mechanic to leave in the festering pit of wotg
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| − | [23:35] Caspian: mmm
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| − | [23:36] Xyphoid: i am not that excited about necessarily tying setting and player-option-menus together like that
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| − | [23:36] d4tw: well, there's definitely a line
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| − | [23:36] Xyphoid: but campaign-specific player-option-menus are great
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| − | [23:36] Caspian: mm
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| − | [23:36] d4tw: xyph: yeah
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| − | [23:36] Caspian: this is going neatly
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| − | [23:37] d4tw: yeah
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| − | [23:37] d4tw: i need to go buy cigarettes >_>
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| − | [23:37] d4tw: can you start us up an rpgnet wikipage?
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| − | [23:38] Caspian: pick a title
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| − | [23:38] d4tw: how do you feel about "Xia"?
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| − | [23:39] Caspian: Xia sounds good, I don't think its being used
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| − | [23:39] Caspian: lets check
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| − | [23:39] d4tw: okie-dokie
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| − | [23:39] d4tw: mmm. what's funny.
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| − | [23:39] d4tw: in spite of calling it "Xia", and thus implying a wuxia chinese-myth thing
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| − | [23:40] Caspian: its more general than that
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| − | [23:40] d4tw: this has the beginnings of being a rock-solid system for westerns, star wars, wuxia, high fantasy, and any number of things o.O
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| − | [23:40] Caspian: (Link: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Xia)http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Xia
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| − | [23:40] Caspian: easy as pie
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| − | [23:40] Caspian: I can format
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| − | [23:40] d4tw: anything where virtue-focused heroes are the stars
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| − | [23:40] Caspian: just someone who's smart throw on text :P
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| − | [23:40] d4tw: heh :)
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| − | [23:41] Caspian: yeah I'm low on brain juice currentlty
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