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| − | = Always on Top = | + | ==Armor== |
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| − | These important notes should stay at the top of the page
| + | I think our example character should have armor. This would lengthen the character generation and combat examples, but I think this is important enough to warrant the extra effort. |
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| − | == Titles on Mano a Mano pages ==
| + | :I am currently working on the Squawk RPG book, once the first rough draft is together I'll revisit MaM for this and other editorial enhancements. (I'm waiting for the rough draft to get done so I know what '''I''' need MaM to do.)[BFG] |
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| − | '''DON'T''' put chapter titles (<code>== Chapter Title ==</code>) on chapter pages (Introduction, Rolling Dice,Characters, Abilities, Equipment or Action Rules.) If you visit a chapter from the [[Mano a Mano|ToC]] the extra title is redundant. The chapter titles are built into the [[Mano a Mano:Complete System|Complete System]] page (which is printing-oriented and does not need edit links.)
| + | ==Organization== |
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| − | '''DO''' put section titles (<code>=== Section Title ===</code>) on pages that contain sections of a chapter. They are redundant if you visit the individual page, but you will usually see these pages as part of a chapter page, and being able to click on the title allows you to edit the section.
| + | I have re-ordered the sections on the [[Mano a Mano|Table of Contents]] and [[Mano a Mano:Complete System|Complete System on One Page]] to reflect this. The broad overview of Gameplay is still first, followed by Action, Character Development, Character Creation and finally Game Design. We will probably want to make further changes so that the system makes sense when presented in this order. We may even want to move the example Ability and Equipment lists into Character Creation or even Character Development. [SL] |
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| − | =Discussion=
| + | : Yeah, that's what I figured. Now it looks to me like perhaps even example occupations may need to be moved forward to at least character generation, and possibly into character development (since it's hard to imagine character development in MaM without the potential for new abilities, equipment, or occupations.) [BFG] |
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| − | ==Seperate Optional Rules Section== | + | ==Editing Character Sheet== |
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| − | I am thinking that "optional rules" should have their/its own section at the end of MaM. This way it will be easy
| + | If you change the character sheet format when editing any of the following, you must update the others: |
| − | to grasp the basic system without having to consider possible optional rules. Also, advanced players interested in optional rules will be able to find them without having to sift through the entire system.
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| − | :Keeping optional rules close to default rules makes it easy to update optional rules when default rules change. It reduces the amount of cross-referencing needed. It encourages a selective approach to optional rules. It also makes optional rules easier to use so we can have a range of options from simple to advanced rather than hiding them away for advanced users only. This also means our default rules can be very basic, because popular but not essential rules are right where they need to be. | + | * [[Mano a Mano:Example Template|Example Template]] |
| | + | * [[Mano a Mano:Example Character|Example Character]] |
| | + | * '''Clone''' character sheet in the [[Mano a Mano:Combat Example|Combat Example]]! |
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| − | :But we do want the basic system to be easy to grasp without having to consider possible optional rules, and less importantly, it is nice if advanced players can find optional rules quickly. Visually seperating optional rules from default rules without removing them from the context allows the reader to decide how much attention they want to give to optional rules. It also makes them easy for advanced readers to spot. Also if the optional rules are seperate wiki pages, we can easily create an appendix summarizing the optional rules if we want. Here is just one example of how they could be visually separated:
| + | Be sure you know which character sheet you are updating: |
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| − | {| style="background:#eee; margin-left:5%; margin-right:5%; padding-left:2%; padding-right:2%"
| + | * The template creation example includes both the blank character sheet and the example template. |
| − | |-
| + | * The character creation example includes both the example template and the example character sheet. |
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| − | ''Optional Rule''
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| − | ----
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| − | {{:Mano a Mano:Mounted Combat}}
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| − | |}
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| − | ::I must admit I'm much more concerned that the extra rules will add to the learning curve, than I am about some need of an advanced player. (Of course specific pritings can include and exclude whatever rules they like under the liscense.) For the purposes of this site, this suggested option might be best.--[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 2005.12.07
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| − | ==Template CP for unbalanced bonuses==
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| − | We could use a formula something like this:
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| − | Agility
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| − | + Absorption
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| − | + Power
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| − | + bonus based on the level of (Agility + Power)
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| − | + bonus based on the level of (Agility + Absorption)
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| − | ----------------------------------------------------
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| − | Agi + Abs + Pow + f1(Agi+Pow) + f2(Agi+Abs)
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| − | The first three lines give us our current CP scale (+1 per size level). The next two lines add points if power or absorption are higher than agility, or if agility is higher than Power or Absorption, based on formulas f1 and f2.
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| − | If f1 and f2 are the 2 and 3 times the geometric CP scale (f2 is higher because absorption is almost always helpful and power only helps certain types of attack), then each point of power or absorption greater than -1 times agility adds 2,6,12,20,42... or 3,9,18,30,63... CP. On the other hand, if power and absorption are the same, each point of agility greater than -1 times power or absorption adds 5,15,30,50,105... CP. (In other words Agility is like 5 abilities)
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| − | --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 02:27, 1 April 2006 (CEST)
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| − | == Special Armor Bonuses ==
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| − | Weapons have special bonuses based on their design. Some help you parry, others are used for grappling, and some help you hit by reaching around defenses. Armor can also be designed to have special advantages and we can reflect this with similar special bonuses:
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| − | * Padded and ablative armor (bicycle helmet) absorb more blunt trauma, explosions, etc.
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| − | * Tough, flexible armor (leather, chainmail) resists cutting (including some stabbing weapons)
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| − | * Hard/smooth/angled/springy/stretchy armor deflects peircing attacks | |
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| − | The ideal armor would combine kevlar (springy/stretchy/smooth with ablative padding) and chainmail (tough against cutting.) This would be reflected as a very high absorption bonus. This composite of clay and metal would be ultra-heavy, so in practise some types of armor are more specialized: | |
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| − | * ("Blu") extra absorption against Blunt/Bludgeoning weapons - padding, clay, foam
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| − | * ("Cut") extra absorption against Cutting (not impaling) weapons - chainmail, leather
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| − | * ("Imp") extra absorption against Impaling weapons - lamellar? kevlar (no clay backing)
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| − | * ("B/C") extra absorption against Blunt and Cutting weapons
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| − | * ("B/I") extra absorption against Blunt and Impaling weapons - kevlar (with backing)
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| − | * ("C/I") extra absorption against Cutting and Impaling weapons
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| − | Weapons with low sharpness are usually blunt/bludgeoning weapons. Weapons with high sharpness are usually cutting weapons - even if they are mainly used for stabbing. To qualify as an impaling weapon, the weapon must be specially designed with a long narrow tip. Natural weapons are often impaling weapons so they can penetrate vital organs even through bone.
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| − | (Note: if you use kevlar without the backing it still gives you an absorption bonus against impaling weapons - including bullets - but you don't get the regular absorption bonus, so it's only going to deflect the lightest grazing hits.)
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| − | == Disabilities & Using Abilities During Combat ==
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| − | Seriously guys. Don't allow players to take disabilities for negative CP. In fact make them pay double CP for disabilities if they want to be crippled and lame and blind and deaf and missing pretty much all their limbs and sensory organs because thats pretty much what they want anyway. Players who take disabilities can bite me.
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| − | Its pretty much an established fact that lawyers can just like see waves of sound bouncing off of your face. But at what cost? ''What cost'' indeed. If you use an ability to compensate for a disability it should require the minimum effort of 1 hitpoint per round. For example -- a blind person may use a cane to collect sensory data.
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| − | At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically spent at least 1 hit point to use the ability.
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| − | --[[User:Ulrich|ulrich]] 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)
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| − | : LOL! - A blind person might also use a cane to fight evil - which will take more than 1 hit point per round :-). Seriously, placing limits on disabilities is essential to good gaming. A good rule would be that a character should not have more than one disability unless (A) she has a sucking character template (and then those should be her only disabilities) or (B) GM's permission (or allowed by the specific game.) Another good rule (especially if you have lots of small quirky disadvantages in the game) is to allow no more than 10 (or fewer) points of disadvantages. (This is one of those optional rules so important it should not just be in an appendix.)
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| − | : I'm not sure I understand everything you are trying to say about ability checks, but we do need a rule for arbitrary actions during combat, to avoid the whole "while I fight these guys, I'm searching for traps, and burying bodies" problem.--[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)
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| − | ==Team CP ==
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| − | Several characters with negative CP could beat a single character with positive CP. We may need to distinguish between an individual's CP total and the CP he adds to a team.
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| − | Individual CP Team CP
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| − | -20 or less 1
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| − | -19 to -13 2
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| − | -12 to -7 3
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| − | -6 to -2 4
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| − | -1 to 2 5
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| − | 3 to 5 6
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| − | 6 to 7 7
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| − | 8 or more same
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| − | :Q: We can do individual character CP without including weapon CP, but can we do team CP without including weapon CP? --[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 2005.03.28.12
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| − | ==Ditch Hit Points==
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| − | ===Why Hit Points aren't Working===
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| − | The current hit point system is complicated and unweildly - although much better than it has been in the past. Unfortunately it does not seem to do what we intended. When characters of significantly different mass encounter each other, they have limited predictable responses, which are more about doing math in their heads than choosing from a variety of techniques. There are many "stupid" moves, like attacks that do not use enough hit points to manuver to even possibly succeed, and attacks that do not use enough hit point to add attack power to even possibly manipulate, stun, or damage. Also, characters do only one attack per turn, because it's not worth splitting up bonuses for attacks that barely have a chance of hitting (if you're big) or barely do any damage (if you're small.) Because characters are only doing one attack, each damage point is -1 to power or agility ''whichever is more important!''. This is strategically almost as bad as -1 to both power and agility, so our damage system is excessively punishing.
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| − | | |
| − | ===No Hit Point System===
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| − | ;Damage Penalty: Damage Penalty = (Damage + Stun) / Stamina. Damage penalty is subtracted from combat rolls and movement (but not from damage bonus?)
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| − | ::Actually I was thinking I would subtract the damage penalty from power bonuses, keeping the combat roll as simple as possible. The problem with this is then damage does not modify passive defense bonus. -BFGalbraith
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| − | | |
| − | ;Attack Variation: You can move a limited number of hit points from the combat bonus of an attack to the attack's damage bonus, and vice-versa.
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| − | ;Strength; '''Option 1:''' Strength is added to the damage of each attack. '''Option 2:''' Strength is the limit of how much you can increase the damage bonus of an attack (see Attack Variation.) '''Option 3:''' Strength (or Speed) is the limit of how much you can increase the damage bonus or the combat bonus of an attack.
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| − | | |
| − | :: Perhaps this could be called this "speed" instead of "strength", since how much the attack can vary will have much to do with how many attacks can be done in a combo. I might even have "Speed + 1" be both the maximum amount of variation in attack AND the maximum # of moves in a combo. -BFGalbraith
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| − | ::: But the variation also affects your maximum attack power with a single attack. I think the adage "strength is speed and speed is strength" favors using the word Strength here. A strong fighter can move quickly (baseball players want to have powerful legs.) While a fighter who emphasizes reaction time and coordination over strength will be doing fewer combos even though he might be fast in certain ways. I don't know if Strength should determine your maximum combat bonus as well as your maximum damage bonus. -TheSerpentLord
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| − | ;Movement: Running ability is the number of meters you can move "normally" during a round. You can keep this up over medium distances (like cross-country racing) but you can sprint over short distances about twice as fast (letting your guard down if you sprint in combat) and you can walk about half as fast. Swimming, Climbing and Flying are similar although climbing is slower and Flying can be faster. (What if damage penalty were subtracted from movement? This would favor faster characters, but if speed is your main way of surviving, then you need as much as you can keep.)
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| − | :: I would say "number of meters you can move normally" = some_default + running ability (lest we have running and running CP be a required part of character generation.) Also, I am strongly in favor of having damage penalty subtracted from movement. -BFGalbraith
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| − | ;Health: If your damage penalty is greater than some amount you are incapacitated. This number could be a Health (Stamina, Fortitude or Vitality) ability, but since Toughness is more valuable, this ability would have extra uses, like determining if you get sick or tired.
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| − | | |
| − | ;Turns: Normally each character can move and attack only on their turn.
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| − | ;Interfering: A character can attack and move to interfere with another character's actions during any turn. (To defend or counter for example.) They can only do this once per round and they forfeit their next turn, so they can't interfere again until after their forfeited turn.
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| − | | |
| − | ;Coordinated attack: A character who is actively "fighting in formation" with team members can attack on a turn of a team mate, but then that attacking character can't attack or interfere again until after their next turn.
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| − | ;Combos: instead of a single attack, a character can do multiple attacks on their turn, but their movement is reduced (divided by the number of attacks?) There should be a limit to the number of attacks in a combo (agility? combat bonus?) '''Proposition A:''' The damage of each attack in the combo is reduced by the number of attacks in the combo. '''Proposition B:''' One attack is normal, another attack has -1 attack and -1 damage, another attack has -2 and -2, another has -3/-3 and so on. These attacks could be in any order.
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| − | :: See above comment about simplicity. Also, our definition of combo will be significantly different in other additional ways: 1) it won't be once-per-weapon-per-round, 2) combos will be able to attack more than one target per round. -BFGalbraith
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| − | ===No HP Character Sheet===
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| − | --Lasting Damage--|----Stun Damage----|---Damage Modifier--
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| − | Name ______________________ Template _______________(__.__)
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| − | Occupation(s) ____________________________________________
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| − | Sex _______ Age _______ Mass _______ Height/Length _______
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| − | ABILITIES Mod Lvl(CP.XP) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Agility ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Power ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Absorption ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Toughness ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Health ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | Reach ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
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| − | EQUIPMENT Qty Mas Cvr Abs Pwr Agi Rch Shp Tgh Spec.
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| − | _______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
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| − | _______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
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| − | _______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
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| − | _______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
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| − | _______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
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| − | Equipment Mass ______ Encumbrance ___ Total CP.XP (__.__)
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| − | * Stamina would appear below Toughness if we use Damage Penalty = Damage/Toughness + Stun/Stamina
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| − | * Running and other movement abilities are also essential, but for example a fish might not have running ability
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| − | * Strength in the sense of damage bonus is replaced by Power
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| − | * Strength could be the name of a new ability that limits how much HP you can pump from attack bonus to damage
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| − | * The opposite ability limiting how much HP you can pump from damage to attack bonus could be part of the character sheet too.
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| − | * Reach might not actually be an ability
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| − | ==Fix Cross-References==
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| − | Cross references like "(See Abilities/Skills.)" need to be hyperlinked to appropriate sections. '''Other text can also be hyperlinked.''' The only cross references that should be in (See ...) format are ones that are more helpful than distracting when you read the printed rules.
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| − | ==New Structure for Linear Reading==
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| − | Areas that (probably) need attention:
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| − | * front and back covers, title page.
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| − | * how to create a book version
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| − | * floating tables (messy when opened in OpenOffice.org)
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| − | * (See Chapter/Section.) references
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| − | * Complete System
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| − | * Game Design
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| − | ** Adventures (basic definition of an Adventure/Scenario/Campaign/Sourcebook and what goes in it.)
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| − | ** Supplies (paper, pencil, hex mats, blank forms for templates, occupations, ability and equipment lists)
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| − | ** Templates
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| − | *** (emphasize designing templates)
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| − | *** Make a Template (follow the template structure and order more closely: dimensions, abilities, armor, limbs, weapons, CP)
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| − | ** Occupations
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| − | *** Requirements (abilities, training, social class, etc.)
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| − | *** Perquisites (equipment, income, social status, etc.)
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| − | *** other limitations (minimum/maximum number of occupations, starting occupations) part of Requirements?
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| − | ** Abilities
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| − | *** Availability (some abilities are limited to certain templates)
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| − | ** Equipment (explain how to design equipment - this is not about CP!)
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| − | * Character Creation
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| − | ** placement of missing limbs information and CP
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| − | ** placement of build information and CP
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| − | ** Occupations?
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| − | ** Character Equipment
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| − | ** Make a Character - Character Generation Example (review for consistency)
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| − | * Character Development
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| − | ** Developing Abilities through Training and Experience
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| − | ** Changing Occupations
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| − | ** Inventory Management or Acquiring and Losing Equipment (see Character Equipment)
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| − | ** Making Equipment
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| − | *** Equipment CP (see Armor and Weapon CP in the Template CP rules)
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| − | *** Make an Item - Equipment Generation Example | |
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| − | == Things BFGalbraith noticed ==
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| − | When I was working on the How-To-Play adventure for www.SquawkRPG.net , I found that following things probably need to be included in Mano a Mano IMHO:
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| − | Rules for varying Height and Reach for individual characters (perhaps something as simple as +1 or -1 CP for an extra 1/2 meter, with no such option for zero-reach characters?)
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| − | | |
| − | :Character templates have minimum and maximum heights, if you are outside that range, the template does not describe you. A full 50cm reach difference seems like it would also mean you are mutated beyond your template. We should consider (at least for future editions of MaM) templates that don't allow build variation (mecha) and and templates that allow extraordinary variation (mutants.)
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| − | :If we look at a sufficiently large template (an 18 meter giant for example) a 0.5 meter reach difference is only like a 5 cm difference for a human. 1 CP per 0.5 m might work. We can set the minimum for all templates at 0 (could reflect disability or damage) but how do we set maximums? The easiest solution is to only allow it if the GM approves and/or assume that templates reflect the upper limit of the race's reach. The complicated solution is to add a new number to the template (especially complicated because now templates present options with multiple CP values instead of a fixed package of features.) --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
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| − | An explaination of "Kick" (from what I understand it's supposed to be like "pull" but you spend the hit points after firing the weapon instead of before...)
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| − | :your guess is as good as mine :-) --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
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| − | An example of how to calculate the CP of the max range of a weapon (so a decent archery example... the correct answer is "you DON'T caculate CP of the max range of a weapon," but an example of how to caculate max range is needed.) In other words, we need a clear example of pull.
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| − | :The reach of a ranged weapon is it's effective range. The CP of reach is 1 CP for each 0.5 m, or 2 CP/m According to Wikipedia, an AK-47 has an effective range of 300-450 m. Depending on whether you take the high or low estimate, that's 600-900 CP. (Imagine that we are fighting on an open plain and you have an AK-47 and I have a knife. I can move a few meters every time you get a shot off, so you'll get a dozen chances to shoot me before I reach you. It's potentially like a guy with a knife fighting 20 guys with spears.)
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| − | ::One nice thing about MaM is that it has been created by people who have really shot bows bows and firearms, have had their arms twisted into submission, been choked out, knocked out, slowly beaten down, been cut by knives, have done full-contact stick fighting, etc. :) I think you are forgetting "kick" in the above CP formula. Kick is Pull for fire arms, and the difference is that you spend the hit points as you pull the trigger, instead of before you pull the trigger. Body-power subtracts from kick before you spend the HP (parrelled to how it effects pull.) So for a 400 meter range weapon, with a kick of 4, the actual "reach" listed on the character sheet would be 100, and the total range would be 400m (4HPx100m.) In that case the reach of the AK would be worth 50 CP, and that would be about right IMHO. (And THAT's why we need an example of Kick in the rules.) -BFGalbraith, Sept. 12, 2006
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| − | :The relationship between pull and range is complex, but here's a rough formula: 120 m + (20 m for each +1 pull), but no less than 20m. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
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| − | I couldn't find any equipment mass calculation rules (they were probably removed when we were attempting "fuzzy size",) which is pretty important in the case of generating Armor.
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| − | Armor is way more important (players expect characters to be slowed down by heavy armor.) There are 3 main factors involved in Armor: Cover, Absorption, and Toughness. I would think that for primitive technologies, the mass of this would be something like "(Cover + Absorption + Toughness) times 20% of Carying Capacity = armor mass," and that for advanced technologies it might be something like "(Cover + Absorption + Toughness) times 10% of Carying Capacity = armor mass."
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| − | | |
| − | :Here's an empirical approach: For midieval armor divide the mass by the cover bonus and get a "mass per Cvr" value. Then we can divide that by the weight of a large man (100 kg) and get an estimate of the weight per cover for any species (based on that species' upper weight limit.) Modern high-tech armor may be 1% better, and some vital areas of the body require less material to cover and still give a +1 bonus. (For example a titanium chest plate that covers my heart could have +1 cover and +5 absorption, but only weigh 2 or 3 kg.)
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| − | Armor Type mass/Cvr Abs Tgh
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| − | Padded 1% /Cvr 1 2
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| − | Leather 2% /Cvr 2 3
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| − | Scale 4% /Cvr 3 3
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| − | Chainmail 3% /Cvr 3 3
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| − | Brigandine 5% /Cvr 4 3
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| − | Lamellar 4% /Cvr 4 4
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| − | Plate 5% /Cvr 5 4
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| − | :The "ideal" formula for the armor's mass is the wearer's mass times the cover and absorption of the armor, divided by 100. Padded, Leather, Chainmail, Lamellar and Plate approach this ideal. Scale and Brigandine are a little less efficient, but they are inexpensive and just as useful in many situations. Toughness is more an economics issue (how much do I want to invest in this much armor?) --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
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| − | We might not want hard and fast rules for weapons, but we might give a "general guidline" of five levels less than it's power bonus.
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| − | | |
| − | :If the weapon is mace-like (maximum power, minimum mass) then it could be a whole size level lighter. If the weapon is fist-like (minimum power, maximum mass) it could be a size level heavier. In other words a 1 kg mace has at least as much impact as a 3 kg sword. There is also variation within families of weapons. A sword with a +3 power bonus is not balanced the same as a sword with a +2 power bonus. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
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| − | ==Boiler Plate for MaM "Design"==
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| − | Some adventures are a sequence of challenges like an obstacle course. However, players often want to be able to try anything they want with their characters, so an engaging environment for the characters to freely adventure in - letting the story develop naturally - is usually better than forcing players to follow a story line.
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| − | For example, if the PCs are likely to end up fighting in a village market, the GM should have a village market combat map prepared. (Instead, the GM may choose to have a blank sheet of Hex Paper, and use "pieces" to show where various Village Market obstacles are on the hex paper.) The more specific the location, the more important it is for the GM to have a specific map prepared. The GM may also have a selection of general terrain maps, for conflicts that take place in general types of areas, instead of taking place in very specific locations.
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| − | You will need one piece for every important character in the game. You will also need a piece for every significant object in the game, which is not already part of a combat map. (By significant object, I mean any visible object that the players are likely to interact with. For example, if there is a discarded spear the players are supposed to find out in the open, it would be best to have a piece for that spear, if it is not part of a map.)
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| − | After studying this tutorial, these should be all the reference materials the GM and players need to play the game. Some of the pages can help players create their PCs, others are designed only for the GM's use.
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