Talk:Mano a Mano

Always on Top

These important notes should stay at the top of the page

Titles on Mano a Mano pages

DON'T put chapter titles (== Chapter Title ==) on chapter pages (Introduction, Rolling Dice,Characters, Abilities, Equipment or Action Rules.) If you visit a chapter from the ToC the extra title is redundant. The chapter titles are built into the Complete System page (which is printing-oriented and does not need edit links.)

DO put section titles (=== Section Title ===) on pages that contain sections of a chapter. They are redundant if you visit the individual page, but you will usually see these pages as part of a chapter page, and being able to click on the title allows you to edit the section.

Discussion

Seperate Optional Rules Section

I am thinking that "optional rules" should have their/its own section at the end of MaM. This way it will be easy to grasp the basic system without having to consider possible optional rules. Also, advanced players interested in optional rules will be able to find them without having to sift through the entire system.

Keeping optional rules close to default rules makes it easy to update optional rules when default rules change. It reduces the amount of cross-referencing needed. It encourages a selective approach to optional rules. It also makes optional rules easier to use so we can have a range of options from simple to advanced rather than hiding them away for advanced users only. This also means our default rules can be very basic, because popular but not essential rules are right where they need to be.

But we do want the basic system to be easy to grasp without having to consider possible optional rules, and less importantly, it is nice if advanced players can find optional rules quickly. Visually seperating optional rules from default rules without removing them from the context allows the reader to decide how much attention they want to give to optional rules. It also makes them easy for advanced readers to spot. Also if the optional rules are seperate wiki pages, we can easily create an appendix summarizing the optional rules if we want. Here is just one example of how they could be visually separated:

Optional Rule Mounted Combat When the Animal Attacks When riding an animal, the animal will fight automatically if it is trained to do so. Every time the animal attacks or defends, the rider must make a roll using their riding ability to stay mounted. The difficulty of this roll is 10. Stopping the Attack To keep the animal from attacking the rider must make an animal handling success roll every time the animal is attacked, and every round that the animal's attacker is visible. The difficulty of this roll is 10 if the animal is unhurt, or 15 if the animal has stun or damage. Animals that do not Fight Animals trained to be ridden but not to fight will not attack if they are being ridden. Instead, they will try to run unless the rider makes a successful animal handling roll. This has a difficulty of 15 if the animal is unhurt, or 20 if the animal has stun or damage. Charging Instead of having the animal attack, a rider may use the animal's speed to do a charging attack. (See Action/Attacking.) Vehicles Vehicle combat is similar to mounted combat, but most vehicles will not fight or try to run from an enemy. Ramming When a driver rams a target, their driving ability modifier or the vehicle's agility - whichever is lower - is used as the attack modifier. A successful ramming attack results in an automatically successful ramming counterattack by the target against the part of the vehicle used to ram (usually the front.) Head-on and Broadside Collisions If the vehicle and target are moving in different directions (or if only the vehicle is moving) the extra charging damage caused by the speed of both the vehicle and the target is added to the damage taken by both. Rear-end and Sideswipe Collisions If the vehicle and target are moving in the same direction then the charging damage is based on the difference in the distances the vehicle and target moved in that direction since the beginning of their last turn.

I must admit I'm much more concerned that the extra rules will add to the learning curve, than I am about some need of an advanced player. (Of course specific pritings can include and exclude whatever rules they like under the liscense.) For the purposes of this site, this suggested option might be best.--BFGalbraith 2005.12.07

Template CP for unbalanced bonuses

We could use a formula something like this:

  Agility
+ Absorption
+ Power
+ bonus based on the level of (Agility + Power)
+ bonus based on the level of (Agility + Absorption)
----------------------------------------------------
Agi + Abs + Pow + f1(Agi+Pow) + f2(Agi+Abs)

The first three lines give us our current CP scale (+1 per size level). The next two lines add points if power or absorption are higher than agility, or if agility is higher than Power or Absorption, based on formulas f1 and f2.

If f1 and f2 are the 2 and 3 times the geometric CP scale (f2 is higher because absorption is almost always helpful and power only helps certain types of attack), then each point of power or absorption greater than -1 times agility adds 2,6,12,20,42... or 3,9,18,30,63... CP. On the other hand, if power and absorption are the same, each point of agility greater than -1 times power or absorption adds 5,15,30,50,105... CP. (In other words Agility is like 5 abilities)

--SerpLord 02:27, 1 April 2006 (CEST)

Special Armor Bonuses

Weapons have special bonuses based on their design. Some help you parry, others are used for grappling, and some help you hit by reaching around defenses. Armor can also be designed to have special advantages and we can reflect this with similar special bonuses:

• Padded and ablative armor (bicycle helmet) absorb more blunt trauma, explosions, etc.
• Tough, flexible armor (leather, chainmail) resists cutting (including some stabbing weapons)
• Hard/smooth/angled/springy/stretchy armor deflects peircing attacks

The ideal armor would combine kevlar (springy/stretchy/smooth with ablative padding) and chainmail (tough against cutting.) This would be reflected as a very high absorption bonus. This composite of clay and metal would be ultra-heavy, so in practise some types of armor are more specialized:

• ("Blu") extra absorption against Blunt/Bludgeoning weapons - padding, clay, foam
• ("Cut") extra absorption against Cutting (not impaling) weapons - chainmail, leather
• ("Imp") extra absorption against Impaling weapons - lamellar? kevlar (no clay backing)
• ("B/C") extra absorption against Blunt and Cutting weapons
• ("B/I") extra absorption against Blunt and Impaling weapons - kevlar (with backing)
• ("C/I") extra absorption against Cutting and Impaling weapons

Weapons with low sharpness are usually blunt/bludgeoning weapons. Weapons with high sharpness are usually cutting weapons - even if they are mainly used for stabbing. To qualify as an impaling weapon, the weapon must be specially designed with a long narrow tip. Natural weapons are often impaling weapons so they can penetrate vital organs even through bone.

(Note: if you use kevlar without the backing it still gives you an absorption bonus against impaling weapons - including bullets - but you don't get the regular absorption bonus, so it's only going to deflect the lightest grazing hits.)

Disabilities & Using Abilities During Combat

Seriously guys. Don't allow players to take disabilities for negative CP. In fact make them pay double CP for disabilities if they want to be crippled and lame and blind and deaf and missing pretty much all their limbs and sensory organs because thats pretty much what they want anyway. Players who take disabilities can bite me.

Its pretty much an established fact that lawyers can just like see waves of sound bouncing off of your face. But at what cost? What cost indeed. If you use an ability to compensate for a disability it should require the minimum effort of 1 hitpoint per round. For example -- a blind person may use a cane to collect sensory data.

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically spent at least 1 hit point to use the ability.

--ulrich 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

LOL! - A blind person might also use a cane to fight evil - which will take more than 1 hit point per round :-). Seriously, placing limits on disabilities is essential to good gaming. A good rule would be that a character should not have more than one disability unless (A) she has a sucking character template (and then those should be her only disabilities) or (B) GM's permission (or allowed by the specific game.) Another good rule (especially if you have lots of small quirky disadvantages in the game) is to allow no more than 10 (or fewer) points of disadvantages. (This is one of those optional rules so important it should not just be in an appendix.)

I'm not sure I understand everything you are trying to say about ability checks, but we do need a rule for arbitrary actions during combat, to avoid the whole "while I fight these guys, I'm searching for traps, and burying bodies" problem.--SerpLord 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)

Team CP

Several characters with negative CP could beat a single character with positive CP. We may need to distinguish between an individual's CP total and the CP he adds to a team.

Individual CP  Team CP

 -20  or less      1
 -19  to -13       2
 -12  to  -7       3
  -6  to  -2       4
  -1  to   2       5
   3  to   5       6
   6  to   7       7
   8  or more    same

Q: We can do individual character CP without including weapon CP, but can we do team CP without including weapon CP? --BFGalbraith 2005.03.28.12

Ditch Hit Points

Why Hit Points aren't Working

The current hit point system is complicated and unweildly - although much better than it has been in the past. Unfortunately it does not seem to do what we intended. When characters of significantly different mass encounter each other, they have limited predictable responses, which are more about doing math in their heads than choosing from a variety of techniques. There are many "stupid" moves, like attacks that do not use enough hit points to manuver to even possibly succeed, and attacks that do not use enough hit point to add attack power to even possibly manipulate, stun, or damage. Also, characters do only one attack per turn, because it's not worth splitting up bonuses for attacks that barely have a chance of hitting (if you're big) or barely do any damage (if you're small.) Because characters are only doing one attack, each damage point is -1 to power or agility whichever is more important!. This is strategically almost as bad as -1 to both power and agility, so our damage system is excessively punishing.

No Hit Point System

Damage Penalty

Damage Penalty = (Damage + Stun) / Toughness. It's use is described below. What if we use Damage Penalty = (Damage/Toughness) + (Stun/Stamina) instead? That would mean you would on average be able to take more damage before experiencing any serious problems. What if certain types of damage reduce agility [leg damage] and others reduce power [arm damage]?

In general, formulas requiring more than one operation rarely get used when they are supposed to be used durring MaM playtesting. "Lasting Damage" + "Stun Damage" / "toughness" works because it's actually just "damage" / "toughness". Simplicity isn't just about being easy to explain in documentation, it's also about weather or not the idea will ever get used in practice. Also, because we are treading on extremely new turf here for MaM, I want to keep things as simple as possible: we can complicate it later if we need to.

I would call "toughness" instead "stamina", since toughness is already a very specific attribute used in the system, and creative use of the stun damage pool might actually give us some decent endurance rules eventurally. -BFGalbraith

Combat Bonus

subtract damage penalty from all combat rolls.

Actually I was thinking I would only subtract the damage penalty from power bonuses, keeping the combat roll as simple as possible. The problem with this though is that then damage does not modify passive defense bonus. -BFGalbraith

Attack Power

strength modifier is added to the power of each attack.

Attack Variation

You can move a limited number of hit points from the attack bonus of an attack to the attack's damage bonus, and vice-versa. Perhaps Strength is the limit of how much you can increase the damage bonus instead of being a bonus to damage?

Perhaps this could be called this "speed" instead of "strength", since how much the attack can vary will have everything to do with how many attacks can be done in a combo. I might even have "Speed" be both the maximum amount of variation in attack AND the maximum # of moves in a combo.

Movement

Running ability is the number of meters you can move "normally" during a round. You can keep this up over medium distances (like cross-country racing) but you can sprint over short distances about twice as fast (letting your guard down if you sprint in combat) and you can walk about half as fast. Swimming, Climbing and Flying are similar although climbing is slower and Flying can be faster. (What if damage penalty were subtracted from movement? This would favor faster characters, but if speed is your main way of surviving, then you need as much as you can keep.)

I would say "number of meters you can move normally" = some_default + running ability (lest we have running and running CP be a required part of character generation.) Also, I am strongly in favor of having damage penalty subtracted from movement. -BFGalbraith

Health

If your damage penalty is greater than some amount you are incapacitated. This number could be a Health (Stamina, Fortitude or Vitality) ability, but since Toughness is more valuable, this ability would have extra uses, like determining if you get sick or tired.

Turns

Normally each character can move and attack only on their turn.

Interfering

A character can attack and move to interfere with another character's actions during any turn. (To defend or counter for example.) They can only do this once per round and they forfeit their next turn, so they can't interfere again until after their forfeited turn.

Coordinated attack

A character who is actively "fighting in formation" with team members can attack on a turn of a team mate, but then that attacking character can't attack or interfere again until after their next turn.

Combos

instead of a single attack, a character can do multiple attacks on their turn, but their movement is reduced (divided by the number of attacks?) There should be a limit to the number of attacks in a combo (agility? combat bonus?) Proposition A: The damage of each attack in the combo is reduced by the number of attacks in the combo. Proposition B: One attack is normal, another attack has -1 attack and -1 damage, another attack has -2 and -2, another has -3/-3 and so on. These attacks could be in any order.

See above comment about simplicity. Also, our definition of combo will be significantly different in other additional ways: 1) it won't be once-per-weapon-per-round, 2) combos will be able to attack more than one target per round. -BFGalbraith

No HP Character Sheet

Name ______________________ Template _______________(__.__)
Occupation(s) ____________________________________________
Sex _______ Age _______ Mass _______ Height/Length _______
ABILITIES    Mod Lvl(CP.XP) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Agility      ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Power        ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Absorption   ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Toughness    ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Health       ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
Reach        ___ ___(__.__) ________________ ___ ___(__.__)
EQUIPMENT       Qty Mas Cvr Abs Pwr Agi Rch Shp Tgh Spec.
_______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
_______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
_______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
_______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
_______________ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ______
  Equipment Mass ______ Encumbrance ___ Total CP.XP (__.__)

• Stamina would appear below Toughness if we use Damage Penalty = Damage/Toughness + Stun/Stamina
• Running and other movement abilities are also essential, but for example a fish might not have running ability
• Strength in the sense of damage bonus is replaced by Power
• Strength could be the name of a new ability that limits how much HP you can pump from attack bonus to damage
• The opposite ability limiting how much HP you can pump from damage to attack bonus could be part of the character sheet too.
• Reach might not actually be an ability

Fix Cross-References

Cross references like "(See Abilities/Skills.)" need to be hyperlinked to appropriate sections. Other text can also be hyperlinked. The only cross references that should be in (See ...) format are ones that are more helpful than distracting when you read the printed rules.

New Structure for Linear Reading

Areas that (probably) need attention:

• front and back covers, title page.
• how to create a book version
• floating tables (messy when opened in OpenOffice.org)
• (See Chapter/Section.) references
• Complete System
• Game Design
  • Adventures (basic definition of an Adventure/Scenario/Campaign/Sourcebook and what goes in it.)
  • Supplies (paper, pencil, hex mats, blank forms for templates, occupations, ability and equipment lists)
  • Templates
    • (emphasize designing templates)
    • Make a Template (follow the template structure and order more closely: dimensions, abilities, armor, limbs, weapons, CP)
  • Occupations
    • Requirements (abilities, training, social class, etc.)
    • Perquisites (equipment, income, social status, etc.)
    • other limitations (minimum/maximum number of occupations, starting occupations) part of Requirements?
  • Abilities
    • Availability (some abilities are limited to certain templates)
  • Equipment (explain how to design equipment - this is not about CP!)
• Character Creation
  • placement of missing limbs information and CP
  • placement of build information and CP
  • Occupations?
  • Character Equipment
  • Make a Character - Character Generation Example (review for consistency)
• Character Development
  • Developing Abilities through Training and Experience
  • Changing Occupations
  • Inventory Management or Acquiring and Losing Equipment (see Character Equipment)
  • Making Equipment
    • Equipment CP (see Armor and Weapon CP in the Template CP rules)
    • Make an Item - Equipment Generation Example

Things BFGalbraith noticed

When I was working on the How-To-Play adventure for www.SquawkRPG.net , I found that following things probably need to be included in Mano a Mano IMHO:

Rules for varying Height and Reach for individual characters (perhaps something as simple as +1 or -1 CP for an extra 1/2 meter, with no such option for zero-reach characters?)

Character templates have minimum and maximum heights, if you are outside that range, the template does not describe you. A full 50cm reach difference seems like it would also mean you are mutated beyond your template. We should consider (at least for future editions of MaM) templates that don't allow build variation (mecha) and and templates that allow extraordinary variation (mutants.)

If we look at a sufficiently large template (an 18 meter giant for example) a 0.5 meter reach difference is only like a 5 cm difference for a human. 1 CP per 0.5 m might work. We can set the minimum for all templates at 0 (could reflect disability or damage) but how do we set maximums? The easiest solution is to only allow it if the GM approves and/or assume that templates reflect the upper limit of the race's reach. The complicated solution is to add a new number to the template (especially complicated because now templates present options with multiple CP values instead of a fixed package of features.) --SerpLord 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

An explaination of "Kick" (from what I understand it's supposed to be like "pull" but you spend the hit points after firing the weapon instead of before...)

your guess is as good as mine :-) --SerpLord 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

An example of how to calculate the CP of the max range of a weapon (so a decent archery example... the correct answer is "you DON'T caculate CP of the max range of a weapon," but an example of how to caculate max range is needed.) In other words, we need a clear example of pull.

The reach of a ranged weapon is it's effective range. The CP of reach is 1 CP for each 0.5 m, or 2 CP/m According to Wikipedia, an AK-47 has an effective range of 300-450 m. Depending on whether you take the high or low estimate, that's 600-900 CP. (Imagine that we are fighting on an open plain and you have an AK-47 and I have a knife. I can move a few meters every time you get a shot off, so you'll get a dozen chances to shoot me before I reach you. It's potentially like a guy with a knife fighting 20 guys with spears.)

One nice thing about MaM is that it has been created by people who have really shot bows bows and firearms, have had their arms twisted into submission, been choked out, knocked out, slowly beaten down, been cut by knives, have done full-contact stick fighting, etc. :) I think you are forgetting "kick" in the above CP formula. Kick is Pull for fire arms, and the difference is that you spend the hit points as you pull the trigger, instead of before you pull the trigger. Body-power subtracts from kick before you spend the HP (parrelled to how it effects pull.) So for a 400 meter range weapon, with a kick of 4, the actual "reach" listed on the character sheet would be 100, and the total range would be 400m (4HPx100m.) In that case the reach of the AK would be worth 50 CP, and that would be about right IMHO. (And THAT's why we need an example of Kick in the rules.) -BFGalbraith, Sept. 12, 2006

The relationship between pull and range is complex, but here's a rough formula: 120 m + (20 m for each +1 pull), but no less than 20m. --SerpLord 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

I couldn't find any equipment mass calculation rules (they were probably removed when we were attempting "fuzzy size",) which is pretty important in the case of generating Armor.

Armor is way more important (players expect characters to be slowed down by heavy armor.) There are 3 main factors involved in Armor: Cover, Absorption, and Toughness. I would think that for primitive technologies, the mass of this would be something like "(Cover + Absorption + Toughness) times 20% of Carying Capacity = armor mass," and that for advanced technologies it might be something like "(Cover + Absorption + Toughness) times 10% of Carying Capacity = armor mass."

Here's an empirical approach: For midieval armor divide the mass by the cover bonus and get a "mass per Cvr" value. Then we can divide that by the weight of a large man (100 kg) and get an estimate of the weight per cover for any species (based on that species' upper weight limit.) Modern high-tech armor may be 1% better, and some vital areas of the body require less material to cover and still give a +1 bonus. (For example a titanium chest plate that covers my heart could have +1 cover and +5 absorption, but only weigh 2 or 3 kg.)

Armor Type  mass/Cvr  Abs  Tgh
Padded       1% /Cvr   1    2
Leather      2% /Cvr   2    3
Scale        4% /Cvr   3    3
Chainmail    3% /Cvr   3    3
Brigandine   5% /Cvr   4    3
Lamellar     4% /Cvr   4    4
Plate        5% /Cvr   5    4

The "ideal" formula for the armor's mass is the wearer's mass times the cover and absorption of the armor, divided by 100. Padded, Leather, Chainmail, Lamellar and Plate approach this ideal. Scale and Brigandine are a little less efficient, but they are inexpensive and just as useful in many situations. Toughness is more an economics issue (how much do I want to invest in this much armor?) --SerpLord 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

We might not want hard and fast rules for weapons, but we might give a "general guidline" of five levels less than it's power bonus.

If the weapon is mace-like (maximum power, minimum mass) then it could be a whole size level lighter. If the weapon is fist-like (minimum power, maximum mass) it could be a size level heavier. In other words a 1 kg mace has at least as much impact as a 3 kg sword. There is also variation within families of weapons. A sword with a +3 power bonus is not balanced the same as a sword with a +2 power bonus. --SerpLord 14:38, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

Boiler Plate for MaM "Design"

Some adventures are a sequence of challenges like an obstacle course. However, players often want to be able to try anything they want with their characters, so an engaging environment for the characters to freely adventure in - letting the story develop naturally - is usually better than forcing players to follow a story line.

For example, if the PCs are likely to end up fighting in a village market, the GM should have a village market combat map prepared. (Instead, the GM may choose to have a blank sheet of Hex Paper, and use "pieces" to show where various Village Market obstacles are on the hex paper.) The more specific the location, the more important it is for the GM to have a specific map prepared. The GM may also have a selection of general terrain maps, for conflicts that take place in general types of areas, instead of taking place in very specific locations.

You will need one piece for every important character in the game. You will also need a piece for every significant object in the game, which is not already part of a combat map. (By significant object, I mean any visible object that the players are likely to interact with. For example, if there is a discarded spear the players are supposed to find out in the open, it would be best to have a piece for that spear, if it is not part of a map.)

After studying this tutorial, these should be all the reference materials the GM and players need to play the game. Some of the pages can help players create their PCs, others are designed only for the GM's use.