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Anyway, fun, fun discussion.  For what it's worth, the thing I had most fun contributing to the thread was a fictitious [http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=5168376&postcount=307 conversation] between two people who both had the best of intentions, but who gradually came to assume the worst of each other because they wouldn't grasp the idea that the other guy '''also''' had the best of intentions.  Ironic, that.
 
Anyway, fun, fun discussion.  For what it's worth, the thing I had most fun contributing to the thread was a fictitious [http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=5168376&postcount=307 conversation] between two people who both had the best of intentions, but who gradually came to assume the worst of each other because they wouldn't grasp the idea that the other guy '''also''' had the best of intentions.  Ironic, that.
 
=== The GM ===
 
 
Original post and a bare '''two''' pages of discussion, [http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=242084 here].
 
 
: The GM: When someone pays attention to pacing, and says 'Okay, we're going to skip this boring stuff and do the combat next," that helps everyone in the game. It makes the game more fun. Likewise, when someone interprets the rules, it helps the game. When someone comes to the table with ideas they think will help make a good story that helps the game. When someone plays the bartender you've just met and will never see again, that helps the game.
 
 
: Many gaming groups get these tasks done by appointing one person to be the Game Master, and having her do them all. She is still playing the game (you can see her, right there at the table, just like everyone else) but she often plays by different rules and sometimes with different goals. Appointing a Game Master is one good way to get the listed tasks done. There are other ways, also good. For instance, in many gaming groups another non-GM-player (or several other players) might stop playing His Guy for a bit and take on the role of the bartender. That is a different way of distributing that task, and it can work. In another gaming group, all the tasks might be distributed equally among all players. That is a different way of distributing the tasks, and it can work.
 
 
: Each way of distributing those tasks has strengths and weaknesses. Some gaming groups may need a GM in order to fulfill their particular goals. Some gaming groups may need to have those tasks spread into many people's hands in order to fulfill their particular goals. Many gaming groups could get their game done either way, and so choose whatever they feel like.
 
 
There was no disagreement to speak of.  Go figure.  I guess it's well understood territory.
 
 
=== Agenda/Reward ===
 
 
Original post and nine pages of discussion, [http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=243071 here].
 
 
: Reward/Agenda: Rewards and Agenda may seem like two different things, but in fact they are just the two sides of one coin. Agenda is what a player '''wants''' to do: not merely the goal of having fun, or telling a good story, but specifically what she finds fun, and what elements she thinks make a good story. Rewards are what other people at the table will give a player for doing something: they combine a judgment on what the player did ("That deserves extra XPs!") and a judgment on what is important enough to be a reward ("XPs are what you want, right?")
 
 
: If a player is rewarded for following her agenda then she will feel recognized and supported. The group agrees with her about what is cool: she can see that she is playing the game the right way for this group. If she isn't rewarded then she may well not feel that.
 
 
: If you reward someone with money, or praise, or candy then they will value the reward for its intinsic value. If you reward someone with something that helps them follow their agenda then they will value the reward for what they can do with it, and they will try to be rewarded again in future. If you reward them with something that can only help them follow some other agenda then it is of no value to them. They won't feel rewarded, and they won't try to gain that reward again in future.
 
 
: The most successful rewards are given to a player for following their agenda, and provide them with resources to follow that agenda in future. The most successful agenda is one that other players recognize and reward in action, and one that the player will always be getting new resources to pursue. Agenda and Reward: Two sides of the same coin.
 
 
There was no disagreement to speak of.  To my pleased astonishment people actually said "Cool, I agree.  Now let's look at the implications," and we did.
 
 
=== Cause/Effect ===
 
 
Original post and barely three pages of discussion, [http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=244463 here].
 
 
:Cause and Effect: In the real world, cause must precede effect. A warrior swings a sword, and his aim is true. Because his aim is true, the blow lands. Because the blow lands, his enemy is wounded. Because the enemy is wounded he surrenders. In reality there is no other way that chain of events can be arranged. Only the earlier things can cause the later ones.
 
 
:But fiction is not the real world. In making fiction you can decide, first, that the enemy will surrender. You explain that by saying that he is wounded. Because of that, the blow must land. Because of that, the warriors aim is true. The surrender (Cause) precedes the warrior's true aim (Effect) in the order in which you write the story, but not in the order in which your audience will read it ... so from the reader's point of view, your process plays havoc with cause and effect.
 
 
:Playing an RPG you are writing the story, not reading it. What's more, you are writing a story together with a group. Most RPGs have mechanics to help you combine all of your thoughts and desires into one shared decision. These mechanics very often put a lot of effort into deciding one thing about the story (a cause), then work quickly from there to decide what else happens (the effects).
 
 
:For instance, in Task Resolution systems the mechanics decide what happened first, in the order the story will be told. They decide, for instance, that the warriors aim is true, then work from there. Contrariwise, in Conflict Resolution systems, the mechanics decide whatever is most important to the players first, no matter where it arrives in the order of the story. They decide, for instance, that the enemy will surrender, then work from there.
 
 
:Both of these ways of telling a story together work just fine. What's more, these are only the two best-explored schemes. You can create these pieces of story in any order that makes a story that people can read. There are (quite likely) many schemes for doing this that we haven't yet explored, which will have their own unique strengths and weaknesses.
 
 
Again, no disagreement to speak of.  Am I getting soft and uncontroversial?  We chatted a bit about some different ways to arrange resolution though, and that was fun.
 
 
=== Solitaire/Riffing ===
 
 
Original post and six pages of discussion, [http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=245881 here].
 
 
: Solitaire/Riffing: Things that happen in a game can be divided (roughly) into two categories: stuff I make important to my story, and other stuff. At least skim some of that link please, I'm building off the ideas there. The important take-away item from there (for here) is that there is no way for anyone else to make something important to my story. No matter how earth-shaking an event might be in the fiction, I always have the ultimate veto power of just not giving a damn.
 
 
: Things that happen in a game can also be divided (again, roughly) into two other categories: stuff that happens like I expected it would and places where people surprise me. Here I don't have a veto: I can't always get what I want (whether it's the expected or the surprising), but the way we play the game will let me try, in many ways.
 
 
: But, because of the ultimate veto power, I can control how much of the stuff that I consider important happens the way I expect, and how much surprises me. I can choose not to give a damn about anything that surprises me. I can choose not to give a damn about things that go as I expected them to.
 
 
: So in any give game session (and any given moment) I will balance somewhere between two extremes. In Solitaire, I assure (whether by fighting for my ideas or by ultimate veto power) that nothing important happens, except the way I intend or expect it to happen. Other players can tell their own stories (which I won't care about) or can fill roles in mine, but they cannot surprise me within the realm of my own story. In Riffing, I assure (agan, by fighting or by ultimate veto power) that nothing important happens, except things that surprise me contributed by the other players. I can contribute things I expected and intended, but I won't care about those things.
 
 
: Very few people, of course, play entirely in one mode or another. It's a "more or less" thing, not an "either or" thing, and it's influenced by how you feel at the table. Solitaire-heavy play provides good results when your ideas are the best ideas for what you want to do ... when you do not trust your co-players to do the right thing, and you are right to so mistrust. It makes sure that you get the best result. Riffing-heavy play provides good results when other peoples ideas are better for what you want to do than your ideas ... when you do not trust yourself to do the right thing, and you are right to so mistrust.
 
 
Most of the discussion was in the line of asking for clarifications (really politely, too!)  It was fun.  I wish I knew a simpler way to put this into words.  Part of the complexity is that OST#3 is tricky to understand, and this one builds decidedly upon OST#3, so I was really explaining both #3 and #8 at the same time.  Oy.  Probably a bit too ambitious for this format.
 

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