Talk:Xia

[20:40] d-esktop: i think dr wotg has morphed into another game altogether, in many ways

[20:40] Indomitable_Jon: psst you should egg willows on :P

[20:41] ST: hi

[20:41] d-esktop: i'm a loose cannon, point me at something and i'll say something spiteful about it

[20:41] d-esktop: or something controversial

[20:41] d-esktop: i mean, shit

[20:41] d-esktop: i sparked a sidereals debate, again, by failing to include a ;) in my post

[20:42] natalie^drest: haha

[20:42] wirrows: dr wotg is like...

[20:42] wirrows: something better than wotg

[20:42] d-esktop: dr wotg should be renamed, to escape the wotg reference

[20:42] wirrows: i like just calling it 'wuxia'

[20:42] d-esktop: yeah, i like wuxia

[20:42] d-esktop: or wulin adventures, or something silly

[20:43] d-esktop: that's the pattern for rpg titles

[20:43] Indomitable_Jon: Jianghu adventures

[20:43] Indomitable_Jon: Jianghu Chronicles?

[20:43] wirrows: hurg

[20:43] d-esktop: i can't come up with a good "w" word, or i'd call it wuxia & ___

[20:43] wirrows: jianghu is better than wulin

[20:44] d-esktop: a tongue-in-cheek module could be called FuPao

[20:44] Indomitable_Jon: Jianghu Saga?

[20:44] d-esktop: ooh

[20:44] Indomitable_Jon: What's another synonym for story?

[20:44] d-esktop: call it "Wuxia!"

[20:44] Indomitable_Jon: yeah

[20:44] d-esktop: with the exclamation point

[20:44] Indomitable_Jon: that is really the best way to do it

[20:44] Indomitable_Jon: nice Fu! lives on

[20:44] d-esktop: :)

[20:45] d-esktop: Fu! would be good, but sounds slightly tongue-in-cheek

[20:45] Indomitable_Jon: Fu! was the name of our mag

[20:45] d-esktop: hee

[20:45] Indomitable_Jon: which died because everyone was sad, and brad was a tard

[20:46] d-esktop: call it, "Wuxia!: More Fu Than You"

[20:46] Indomitable_Jon: I wish I could resurect Fu

[20:46] Indomitable_Jon: ya

[20:46] wirrows: omg

[20:46] Indomitable_Jon: ?

[20:47] wirrows: we should call it

[20:47] wirrows: WUXIA MONOGATARI

[20:47] Indomitable_Jon: ?

[20:47] d-esktop: or MOO GOO GAI PAN

[20:47] d-esktop: ...wait, no

[20:47] Indomitable_Jon: heh

[20:47] Indomitable_Jon: Wuxia Fu Yong

[20:48] kAFKaesque: Wux goo gia pan!

[20:48] d-esktop: though a chapter about having good kung-fu in noncombat situations could be called Mushu Wushu

[20:48] d-esktop: or Wushu Mushu

[20:48] d-esktop: that sounds better

[20:48] Indomitable_Jon: mmm

[20:48] Indomitable_Jon: Wuxia!

[20:48] d-esktop: something needs the title "Wuxia Schmuxia"

[20:48] Indomitable_Jon: I think is a good simple title

[20:49] Indomitable_Jon: sounds like a 24h game tho

[20:49] d-esktop: yeah

[20:49] Indomitable_Jon: which I think is good

[20:49] wirrows: cause

[20:49] d-esktop: reminiscent of Adventure! to me

[20:49] wirrows: monogatari is JAPANESE

[20:49] Indomitable_Jon: ok, well I've been thinking of reformatting my Fu! styles to fit your format for some time

[20:49] Indomitable_Jon: and if I stop drinking I may be able to do that

[20:49] d-esktop: mmm

[20:49] d-esktop: i rented the emperor and the assassin

[20:49] d-esktop: i need to watch it

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: OH awesome

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: its good

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: unlike the Promise

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: which was suck

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: but pretty

[20:50] d-esktop: the promise?

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: Chen Kaige

[20:50] d-esktop: sounds familiar but i can't place it

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: Wu Ji

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: current most expensive chinese move 35 mill

[20:50] Indomitable_Jon: sexy looking but invariably stupid

[20:50] wirrows: it's new

[20:51] Indomitable_Jon: ya

[20:51] Indomitable_Jon: new, but suck

[20:52] Indomitable_Jon: Jet Li's new movie is suck but choreographed nicely

[19:53] d4tw: i have made a decision

[19:54] d4tw: dr exalted is going to throw a fair amount of exalted's cosmology out the window

[19:54] Caspian: yay david!

[19:55] d4tw: so, something keeps nagging at me about dr exalted

[19:55] Caspian: oh>?

[19:55] d4tw: should i change the base task-resolution mechanic?

[19:56] Caspian: hmm

[19:56] willows: well what's your design goal here

[19:56] willows: that is, um

[19:56] Caspian: is there something simpler?

[19:56] willows: state it like a dictionary

[19:56] willows: without reference to outside objects

[19:56] d4tw: the entire point of dr exalted

[19:56] d4tw: is to take the epic kung-fu superheroes from exalted

[19:57] HertzaHaeon: What's dr Exalted?

[19:57] Caspian: done right

[19:57] ArtBadger: Done Right Exalted.

[19:57] d4tw: and mate them with a system that encourages style-oriented character construction and behavior, and mechanics that play to a genre

[19:57] d4tw: "done right", obviously, is a joke, since it's thoroughly wrong to many people, i'm sure

[19:58] d4tw: as much as i like grid- or hex-maps, i'm disinclined to bring those in

[19:58] d4tw: i think they would work contrary to my design goals

[19:59] ArtBadger: diceless hexmaps are nat's favorite system.

[19:59] HertzaHaeon: You're all finicky with Exalted. I think I*m the only one who likes it as it is in the books. :P

[19:59] willows: okay

[19:59] willows: so what you are saying

[19:59] HertzaHaeon: Heh, diceless hexmaps.

[19:59] willows: is you want to make a style-oriented game about kung fu superheroes

[19:59] willows: that means---

[19:59] d4tw: that could mean that i'm trying to make, like, wushu

[20:00] willows: -it needs to be mechanically not just viable, but -better- to act in a way that's stylish after your own character

[20:00] Myrrh: That could mean that you could use Feng Shui...

[20:00] d4tw: willows: right!

[20:00] willows: and characters' styles are kung fu superhero characters

[20:01] d4tw: one thing i love most about exalted, though, is the intricacy of the charm system. while i think it goes just a bit far on the complexity angle, it open-ends so well that i think i want to retain the essence of that

[20:01] willows: so what i see in kung fu and supers is that characters tend to be sharply aligned with a faction, and that /means something/

[20:01] willows: that is important i think

[20:01] willows: also you want to play with charms and powers

[20:01] willows: that's good too

[20:02] d4tw: with regards to factions

[20:02] d4tw: by "faction" are you including ethos?

[20:02] d4tw: ...i think i just misused that word

[20:02] willows: uh

[20:02] d4tw: replace "ethos" with "specific moral code"

[20:02] willows: specifically

[20:03] willows: a group of people that align themselves together and generally have something material linking them together

[20:03] willows: like in Avatar, the nations are factions

[20:04] willows: in cthd, you have wudangshan, the Yu family, the cops, Jade Fox, and Lo

[20:04] d4tw: then if i retain the splats from exalted, that would work, yes?

[20:04] willows: in hero there're the cops (again), the flying daggers cult, and feng/xiaomei

[20:04] willows: hero?

[20:04] d4tw: hofd

[20:04] willows: hofd

[20:04] willows: so, hm

[20:05] d4tw: in hero there's, like, qin and the assassins?

[20:05] *** Carmine is now known as Kraken|Sleeps.

[20:05] willows: i think the non-solar heritages all work as factions

[20:05] willows: yeah. i'd maybe argue that wu ming is his own faction

[20:05] willows: that's why he doesn't have a name

[20:05] willows: hero is sort of aberrant

[20:05] d4tw: ooh, good point

[20:06] d4tw: well, retaining most of exalted's setting would work, i think

[20:06] willows: but like i could see something (going way beyond resolution system and into reward cycle here) where you can get, like, some kind of bonus xp for coming to the aid of your party

[20:07] d4tw: mm

[20:07] d4tw: yeah, while i think most people factor that into roleplaying rewards, it should probably be codified

[20:08] willows: there's a lot of power in -telling- people what you'll reward them for

[20:08] d4tw: yeah

[20:08] willows: there isn't enough time depth in most games for people to figure out what you're rewarding by just watching your patterns

[20:08] d4tw: i think a broader range of rewards is in order

[20:09] willows: actually wotg has a lot of stuff i like, in terms of dealings with your faction

[20:09] d4tw: i absolutely /love/ loresheets

[20:09] willows: hah gmta

[20:09] d4tw: i'm really thinking of yoinking that

[20:27] willows: hm

[20:27] willows: the wotg virtues are a little odd

[20:27] willows: i like the way that the exalted ones are sort of uncompromising and crazy

[20:27] d4tw: the wotg virtues are intended to mimic, uh, wotg. so they don't really work.

[20:29] d4tw: so, what are the distinct virtues of a kung-fu superhero?

[20:29] Caspian: heroism

[20:29] Caspian: well do you mean good superhero or a bad superhero?

[20:29] d4tw: i'm thinking a little narrower than heroism

[20:30] Caspian: I think for both sides the key idea is being Flashy

[20:30] Caspian: and Standing for Things

[20:30] d4tw: the exalted ones work well, i think, actually

[20:30] d4tw: courage, purpose, self-control, compassion?

[20:31] Caspian: for the heroic ones ya

[20:32] Caspian: sometimes self control is switched with indulgence

[20:32] d4tw: perhaps an eight-line virtue arrangement?

[20:32] d4tw: courage/cowardice, purpose/self-interest, self-control/indulgence, compassion/callousness?

[20:34] d4tw: or are eight virtues too clumsy?

[20:34] willows: once i was talking with my friend thomas about an eight-pointed ring of emotions linked to the virtues...

[20:35] Caspian: hmm that works

[20:35] Caspian: it seems balanced and takes into account the non-xia heroes

[20:35] willows: (Link: http://njyar.thesmerf.com/images/misc/emotionwheel.png)http://njyar.thesmerf.com/images/misc/emotionwheel.png

[20:35] d4tw: cowardice really feels like a subset of self-interest, tho

[20:35] Caspian: you can mix and match which virtues you are alligned with right David?

[20:35] Caspian: true

[20:35] willows: maroon is valour and blue is conviction

[20:35] d4tw: ooh, that's cool

[20:35] willows: pink compassion and orange temperance

[20:36] d4tw: what's the dark blue?

[20:36] d4tw: wait *peer*

[20:36] willows: that's like the elemental cycle

[20:36] willows: the idea is that you can work it like wotg secret arts

[20:36] d4tw: ah

[20:36] willows: use a progression technique to push something around the circle or invert it

[20:37] d4tw: i like that a lot

[20:37] d4tw: in fact, yes

[20:38] d4tw: that emotion wheel could work well

[20:38] willows: awesome

[20:38] willows: i'm glad those five minutes didn't go to waste

[20:38] d4tw: heh

[20:38] Caspian: why is self interest opposed to purpose?

[20:39] d4tw: because purpose doesn't really mean purpose?

[20:39] d4tw: i'm thinking of purpose as representing a devotion to something greater than yourself

[20:39] d4tw: a cause, a belief, a nation, etc

[20:39] d4tw: hrm!

[20:40] d4tw: i think there are inward and outward sides of each virtue

[20:40] willows: hm, i suspect you could use the wheel in such a way that your rating in a virtue reflects your susceptibility to those emotions

[20:40] Caspian: oh devotion

[20:43] d4tw: yeah

[20:43] d4tw: i officially love the wheel

[20:50] d4tw: i'm throwing away essence as power for kung-fu

[20:52] Caspian: why?

[20:52] Caspian: essence = too fiddly?

[20:54] d4tw: more that with the game being more style and virtue oriented, i see no reason to pretend that kung-fu is powered by mystical energy flows

[20:54] d4tw: your kung-fu is fueled by your virtue

[20:54] Caspian: interesting

[20:55] d4tw: by your force of will and quality of character and by acting heroically, etc

[20:55] Caspian: nice

[20:55] d4tw: essence still exists

[20:55] Caspian: that's a good way to enforce ingenre behaviour

[20:55] d4tw: yeah

[20:56] d4tw: i think "essence" will just be what scholars and such discuss

[20:56] d4tw: sorcery might actually function by manipulating it

[20:56] d4tw: ooh, maybe sorcery still costs essence ... but essence is drawn from the world around you

[20:56] d4tw: kind of dark-sun-ish

[20:56] willows: posibly "essence" is what unddifferentiated virtue-power is

[20:56] d4tw: perhaps so

[20:57] d4tw: i'm more comfortable with treating essence as, like, the mystical energy that makes the world go 'round

[20:57] d4tw: and your virtue-power lets you bend essence

[20:57] d4tw: so you're not using essence, you're actually working against it or forcing it out of your way

[20:58] Caspian: mmm, by using your virtue power

[20:58] Caspian: neat

[20:58] d4tw: sorcery would be the only thing that really /uses/ essence

[20:58] d4tw: and it does so by using virtue-mojo to pull essence away from what it's supposed to be doing and making it do what you want

[21:00] Caspian: mmm

[21:00] Caspian: so magic is bad in a way?

[21:01] Caspian: cause by doing something youre literally stealing away power from something else?

[21:01] d4tw: right!

[21:01] willows: the sage vyasa once asked a question

[21:02] willows: one day, it rained, and my flowers were watered thereby.

[21:02] willows: the next day, someone angered the god of thunder, and the god struck him down with bolts.

[21:02] willows: which of these was improper? Which was unnatural?

[21:02] Caspian: wait a minute, what about the gods?

[21:02] Caspian: they use magic to do stuff?

[21:02] willows: the answer is neither. it is the nature of gods to do as they will.

[21:02] willows: exalted are essentially gods.

[21:03] Caspian: do they draw power from "somewhere else"?

[21:03] willows: no

[21:03] d4tw: the gods are something of a nonissue

[21:03] willows: they just do things

[21:03] Caspian: ah

[21:03] d4tw: i'll rewrite the cosmology as necessary to fit the system

[21:03] willows: that's their nature

[21:03] Caspian: mmm

[21:03] d4tw: it's a case of, like

[21:03] willows: similarly, it's the nature of exalted to make stuff happen

[21:03] d4tw: form following function, which follows form

[21:19] d4tw: i wonder how game designers come up with stuff

[21:19] Caspian: drugs?

[21:19] d4tw: heh

[21:19] GoldenH: probably by listening to crazy people ramble on

[21:19] d4tw: well

[21:19] d4tw: we've got a purpose

[21:19] d4tw: we've got a set of core stats

[21:20] d4tw: we've got the beginnings of a rewards system

[21:20] Caspian: mm

[21:20] d4tw: we've got a "powers" system

[21:20] d4tw: or a "powers" system to work with

[21:22] d4tw: we need a dice system, a character-traits system, and we need a character advancement system

[21:24] Caspian: well there may be a max holding of virtue and as you go up in power you can have more virtue

[21:24] Caspian: and are even more archetypal

[21:24] Caspian: are the WoD traits as normal not ok?

[21:25] d4tw: well, i think going to the ability setup originally discussed might be better than the normal STS traits

[21:26] Caspian: hmm

[21:28] d4tw: what about dice mechanics?

[21:29] d4tw: the idea of using two abilities for a single task seemed kind of charming, and i think it opens up a more refined sense of the character's personal style

[21:29] Caspian: mmm

[21:32] d4tw: percentile? dicepool? roll-and-keep? something new and clever?

[21:32] Caspian: hmm I think in some ways

[21:32] Caspian: theres a limit to how much novelty one can handle

[21:32] d4tw: i agree

[21:32] Caspian: The story teller pool system seems to work

[21:32] d4tw: and i think novel, clever, new mechanics tend to be counterintuitive

[21:33] Caspian: except for the case of the super huge pool

[21:33] d4tw: yeah. the megapool is problematic.

[21:34] Caspian: maybe incorporating something from L5R where dice over X number are converted into auto successes

[21:34] d4tw: hmm

[21:34] d4tw: might that make dice-adding supremely powerful, though?

[21:35] Caspian: well make dice adding rarer?

[21:35] d4tw: point

[21:35] willows: well

[21:35] d4tw: i was originally considering making dice-adding extremely common, since it's a very easy way to represent "i'm an awesome hero" on the lowest level

[21:35] willows: how often does number of successes actually matter

[23:18] d4tw: suppose the only time you roll for anything is in conflict

[23:18] d4tw: unopposed tasks - even rather important ones - aren't rolled

[23:18] Caspian: mmm

[23:18] ArtBadger: you just succeed at anything you want to do that isnt contested?

[23:19] Caspian: compare stats?

[23:19] d4tw: you don't automatically succeed at "anything you want to do that isn't contested"

[23:19] d4tw: it's more like, uh

[23:19] d4tw: if you're attempting something that is within your capabilities

[23:19] d4tw: you, uh

[23:21] d4tw: anyway

[23:21] d4tw: attempting a task that's within your capabilities doesn't require a roll at all

[23:21] Caspian: mmm

[23:22] d4tw: because it's dumb to make people roll to accomplish something they're already pretty good at

[23:22] Caspian: if its outside your capabilties?

[23:22] d4tw: well

[23:22] d4tw: let's pretend we're working with a 5-point scale, and a 5-point difficulty scale

[23:22] d4tw: you have, say, blacksmithing at 5

[23:22] d4tw: making an exceptional sword is, say, a diff 3 tast

[23:22] d4tw: *task

[23:23] Caspian: yah might as well let it go through

[23:23] d4tw: you don't have to roll to make one exceptional sword

[23:23] d4tw: meanwhile, a diff 4 task might require a roll

[23:23] d4tw: a diff 5 task might require a roll with a penalty, or something

[23:23] d4tw: i kind of want to avoid a system of unopposed rolls

[23:24] d4tw: i'd rather try to define trying to stretch your limits in terms of conflict

[23:24] d4tw: maybe you roll against yourself

[23:25] d4tw: like

[23:25] d4tw: thinking outside the box (and accordingly working beyond your capabilities) means you have to work against what you've practiced and ingrained over time

[23:26] d4tw: your thoughts, ijon?

[23:27] Caspian: that seems to do ok

[23:27] Caspian: the sliding scale has to be ingrained into the system tho, cause usually I think people think in breakpoints

[23:27] d4tw: yeah

[23:28] d4tw: i think there could be limiting factors that enter, too

[23:28] d4tw: let's use the term "task rating"

[23:29] d4tw: if you have the relevant skill at a level equal to the task rating, you don't roll, outside of conflicts

[23:29] d4tw: if the TR exceeds your skill, it imposes penalties

[23:29] d4tw: also, outside factors can limit your effective skill rating

[23:29] d4tw: so, like

[23:30] d4tw: making a serviceable sword is normally TR 3, and you have Swordsmith 4

[23:30] d4tw: no problem

[23:30] Caspian: but if you're blind and have one arm, your sword smithing is penalized

[23:30] Caspian: so it becomes a problem

[23:30] d4tw: but you can't get good steel, you'll have to make do with pot iron.

[23:30] Caspian: mm

[23:30] d4tw: so your Swordsmith skill is penalized by 1 point

[23:31] d4tw: no problem, you still don't have to roll

[23:31] d4tw: oh, but you don't have /all/ the tools you need, and the forge you have access to can't get quite hot enough. another penalty.

[23:31] d4tw: now you have to roll

[23:32] d4tw: that or treat everything as a conflict. compose an opposing dicepool by compiling outside factors

[23:33] d4tw: i dunno. random thoughts for now.

[23:47] d4tw: yeah, definitely

[23:47] d4tw: i think i like the idea of the world opposing the character

[23:48] Caspian: is that not usually the case

[23:48] d4tw: well, right

[23:49] d4tw: but since the dice pool that the world uses to oppose is based on factors working against the character, when there are situations where conditions are just right, you don't roll

[23:49] d4tw: if you take your time to get all your tools and materials just so, you can do precisely what you set out to do with complete certainty

[23:50] d4tw: then again, that's really kind of a clumsy concept

[23:51] d4tw: also a little too, like, counterintuitive, i guess

[23:52] d4tw: i dunno. i go smoke.

[00:15] * d4tw retornz

[00:16] Caspian: Hurray

[00:18] Caspian: hmm, making it easy to figure out the pros and the cons might be a good thing as well

[00:26] d4tw: yeah, you'd have to carefully specify pros and cons.

[00:26] d4tw: i'd probably do it in, like, a sort of fuzzy way; i'd give examples of, like, -1/-2/-3 and +1/+2/+3

[22:28] d4tw: anyway

[22:28] d4tw: ijon

[22:28] d4tw: a thought occurs

[22:28] Caspian: yes!

[22:29] Caspian: what is this thought?

[22:29] d4tw: to hell with exalted!

[22:29] Caspian: that's a good thought

[22:29] d4tw: at this juncture, dr exalted has evolved to the point that it's no longer an overhaul of exalted

[22:29] d4tw: dr exalted has taken on its own life

[22:29] Caspian: yeah it is pretty standalone

[22:29] d4tw: so do you think we should write our own new setting for it?

[22:29] d4tw: or just write it as a semi-generic kung-fu superhero system?

[22:30] Caspian: well system first

[22:30] d4tw: right

[22:30] d4tw: that's a given

[22:30] Caspian: you can always overlay a setting

[22:30] d4tw: true

[22:30] Caspian: man, setting writing its been eons since I've done that

[22:30] Caspian: I've always just done setting mods

[22:31] d4tw: currently, i'm still committing the error of trying to build dr exalted to accept the exalted setting, or at least the broad strokes of it

[22:31] Caspian: yeah, set it free I think

[22:31] d4tw: but i think the only things worth truly retaining from exalted are the style-based combat trees

[22:31] FIAT: you need a new name, then

[22:32] Caspian: Awesome!

[22:32] d4tw: i like the greater depth that exalted-style mas offer in comparison to, say, d&d's feat trees or even wotg's fus

[22:32] Caspian: wait thatis a terrible name

[22:32] d4tw: fiat; yes, definitely. we'll come up with something when the time comes.

[22:32] FIAT: Also, I bet what I have in my pocketses that nothing will come of this in the end

[22:32] Caspian: yeah, well there could be that

[22:32] Caspian: but I think it could go somewhere

[22:32] Caspian: David: where is this info being stored?

[22:32] Caspian: being dumped on RPGnet wiki?

[22:32] d4tw: at present? in our heads, mostly.

[22:33] d4tw: yeah, we need to set up a blog or start wiki-ing all of it.

[22:33] Caspian: yeah, and enlist other brains

[22:33] Caspian: how does one make a new genre?

[22:33] d4tw: ijon; i dunno, i think between the three of us we've got what we need.

[22:34] d4tw: and there's no such thing as a new genre.

[22:34] Caspian: naw, always more brains

[22:34] Caspian: cause like sometimes brains go stale, or go D20, like Jons

[22:34] Caspian: true, but I think there's something to be said about a lighter exalted game

[22:34] Caspian: that would seem to make it more accessible

[22:38] Caspian: lets define what this DR exalted system should od

[22:38] d4tw: i think we already have

[22:39] d4tw: kung-fu superheros.

[22:39] d4tw: which is shorthand

[22:39] Caspian: so its for a high fantasy/wuxia styled game

[22:39] d4tw: for heroes with supernatural power driven by virtue and personality

[22:40] Caspian: mmm

[22:40] d4tw: the almost-purely-virtues system we discussed last is very charming, but feels a little too rules-light

[22:40] d4tw: which is a weird thing to say

[22:40] Caspian: ok, cool, so long as that's stated

[22:40] d4tw: but if we go that route, we should totally call it "Xia"

[22:40] Caspian: mmm, well like I dunno, Ex has always been too heavy for me to get into

[22:40] Caspian: well like play

[22:40] Caspian: cause I can't see the combos

[22:40] d4tw: mmm

[22:41] d4tw: see, i have no problems understanding exalted's rules

[22:41] Caspian: aah

[22:41] d4tw: i just find them very clumsy in action

[22:41] Caspian: hmm

[22:41] Caspian: Ok, well lets steal other stuff

[22:41] d4tw: yeah

[22:41] Caspian: how does the WotG setup of kungfu work for you?

[22:41] d4tw: it's alright. i prefer the more intricate kung-fu of exalted.

[22:42] d4tw: if there's anything we preserve from exalted, i feel like the structure and "feel" of MAs is it.

[22:42] d4tw: but that is, of course, open to discussion; i'm not about to pretend i'm the HNIC here

[22:43] d4tw: the thing i love most about wotg is multiple-mojo-pool-management

[22:44] d4tw: the kung-fus themselves strike me as too brief and somewhat lacking in really solid "feel"

[22:44] Caspian: but aren't you in charge anyways David?

[22:44] d4tw: it's one thing to write really awesome flavor text and semi-generic mechanics that support it. that works for wotg.

[22:45] d4tw: i prefer to think of it as a community thing? :)

[22:45] Caspian: ok

[22:45] d4tw: especially now that we're officially divorced from exalted

[22:45] Caspian: well theres the thing with the intricacies of ex charms

[22:45] Caspian: how does this mesh with this pool system?

[22:45] d4tw: i'm not sure yet. ^_^

[22:45] d4tw: brb, need another beer.

[22:48] d4tw: mmm, fat tire

[22:48] d4tw: anyway

[22:48] d4tw: could you elaborate a bit on what you're asking?

[22:53] Caspian: well like how big are these virtue pools

[22:54] Caspian: and are certain charms powered specifically only by specific pools?

[22:54] d4tw: mmm.

[22:54] d4tw: honestly, i couldn't tell you

[22:54] d4tw: that said

[22:54] d4tw: the costing mechanism that "feels" right to me

[22:54] d4tw: is for a given fu style to be most particularly aligned with one virtue or another

[22:55] d4tw: and technique costs will be, like, "X virtue points, & 2 Valor"

[22:55] Caspian: ok so certain styles will be predisposed to certain builds

[22:56] Caspian: ok, this is wotg like, I am onboard as that goes

[22:56] d4tw: kinda, yeah

[22:56] d4tw: i'm picturing basic techniques not requiring a specific virtue

[22:57] Caspian: but super techs requiring spec virtues

[22:57] Caspian: ok

[22:57] Caspian: well back to the skills issue then

[22:57] d4tw: but forms (that's a mechanic i really like, personally; your thoughts?) and major techniques would have a cost that incl- yeah

[22:57] Caspian: youd now have to have specific skills, not linked virtue ones

[22:58] d4tw: hrm.

[22:59] d4tw: suppose we established a set of skills divided up by virtue

[22:59] d4tw: not limited by one another, though

[22:59] d4tw: but sharing a common bond manipulated by charms and suchlike

[22:59] Caspian: hmm

[22:59] Caspian: how does this look

[23:00] Caspian: for instance, shadowless sword is an example for me

[23:00] Caspian: there are 2 main swordsdudes

[23:00] Caspian: one is a swordsdude who is powered by vengeance

[23:00] Caspian: the other is a swordsdude powered by compassion

[23:00] d4tw: mmm

[23:00] Caspian: is their swordsdudery linked to their particular favored virtue?

[23:01] d4tw: i think their sword-fu is probably linked more to a discipline virtue; at least in terms of the base skill

[23:01] d4tw: BUT

[23:01] d4tw: they probably use kung-fu based on their favorite virtue

[23:01] Caspian: ah ok

[23:03] d4tw: let's lock in our virtues tonight

[23:04] d4tw: earlier, i think we were thinking in terms of exalted too much. let's stop and think "character traits that interesting protagonists often showcase"

[23:04] Caspian: 4 good virtues, 4 mirror virtues

[23:04] Caspian: are we thinking symmetry?

[23:05] ArtBadger: Mercy, Honor, Cunning, Valor, Fairness?

[23:05] d4tw: i think symmetry is elegant, but irrelevant, honestly.

[23:05] Caspian: m

[23:06] Caspian: which 8 did you use before?

[23:06] d4tw: john might be on the right track there

[23:06] d4tw: the eight i had were, like, the four exalted ones with dark mirrors

[23:06] Caspian: mmm

[23:06] Caspian: I liked that setup

[23:06] d4tw: i did, too

[23:07] d4tw: but i think it was built on erroneous premises

[23:07] Caspian: hmm

[23:07] d4tw: let's think, tho

[23:07] Caspian: ok, the goal is character traits?

[23:07] d4tw: interesting protagonists have strong will so much that i think that should be a trait outside the virtue will

[23:07] d4tw: *wheel

[23:08] Caspian: yeah, its mostly a given that heroes have pretty strong wills

[23:08] d4tw: mercy, honor, cunning, and courage are good ones. fairness feels sort of like a subset of honor.

[23:08] Caspian: ya

[23:08] Caspian: sloth is a good virtue to have too

[23:08] Caspian: so you can have sleeping buddha style stuff

[23:08] d4tw: mmm.

[23:09] d4tw: maybe that's a potential side-effect of wisdom?

[23:09] d4tw: maybe we have mercy, honor, cunning, courage, and wisdom?

[23:09] Caspian: Wisdom as a trait isn't bad

[23:09] Caspian: and do these things have dark mirrors?

[23:09] d4tw: using "wisdom" in the sort of buddha sense, i guess

[23:09] d4tw: i dunno yet, actually

[23:09] d4tw: i don't really think we need opposing virtues

[23:11] Caspian: ok

[23:11] Caspian: so 5 pools, that's workable

[23:11] d4tw: the downside, of course

[23:11] d4tw: being that /without/ opposed virtues, you don't have opposed pools

[23:11] d4tw: opposed pools means opposed kung-fu's

[23:12] Caspian: yeah, plus I'd think it'd be neat to have "corrupt virtues" for the less heroic

[23:12] d4tw: that too

[23:13] Caspian: at 10 pools thats kinda huge

[23:14] d4tw: yeah :\

[23:14] d4tw: then again

[23:14] d4tw: that means that you have a large /total/ pool

[23:14] Caspian: mmm, but what if the corrupt pool is instead of the other?

[23:14] d4tw: ooh

[23:14] d4tw: well

[23:14] d4tw: i was thinking

[23:14] d4tw: having a really big total pool

[23:14] d4tw: means you can freely use those techniques that aren't virtue-specific

[23:14] d4tw: i.e.

[23:15] d4tw: a powerful, but worldly hero who stands for nothing

[23:15] d4tw: but you incur /real/ cost when trying to use the virtue-specific effects

[23:15] Caspian: mmm

[23:15] Caspian: yeah, well that's fine

[23:15] Caspian: you can freely stand for nothing

[23:15] Caspian: but you're locked away from certain things

[23:16] d4tw: mmm.

[23:16] d4tw: well

[23:16] d4tw: yeah

[23:16] d4tw: i think that's kind of cool

[23:16] d4tw: you can be a very powerful hero

[23:16] d4tw: who doesn't stand for anything

[23:16] d4tw: be your own man, acknowledge no authority, whatever

[23:17] Caspian: yeah but someone may have a specific virtue style that may or maynot trump you

[23:17] d4tw: yeah

[23:17] d4tw: this encourages players to build and play characters who have a cause

[23:17] d4tw: who have a deep love for something, etc

[23:17] Caspian: which is good

[23:17] Caspian: this means when building styles virtue specific costs should be important

[23:18] d4tw: definitely

[23:18] d4tw: virtue-specific costs are our primary costing mechanism

[23:18] d4tw: in fact!

[23:18] d4tw: i'm almost inclined to say that character start with X points to distribute across the virtues

[23:18] d4tw: and when you spend XP, you don't /increase/ a virtue, you /relocate/ virtues

[23:18] Caspian: ooh, erky

[23:19] d4tw: that makes costing a lot easier, i think

[23:19] d4tw: and i think it makes virtue-specific costs more meaningful

[23:19] Caspian: huh

[23:19] Caspian: but how are you to be a powerful person who stands for nothing?

[23:19] Caspian: well I figure there should be a Max virtue

[23:20] Caspian: but the PC doesn't start at that?

[23:20] d4tw: spread your points evenly across virtues

[23:20] d4tw: mmm. maybe so

[23:20] d4tw: the rearranging thing just suddenly came to me; i really don't know how viable that is.

[23:20] Caspian: well I think it works

[23:20] Xyphoid: surely the idea is that you *can't* be a powerful person without standing for anything

[23:20] Caspian: like say you can have max 10 virtue points

[23:20] Caspian: but start with 6

[23:20] d4tw: i like that

[23:21] d4tw: xyph: well, you kind of /can/ be a powerful person without standing for anything

[23:21] Caspian: and once you've gotten your 10 you can reallocate and pass a certain cap

[23:21] Caspian: liek your virtues are limited to 3 until you relocate stuff

[23:21] d4tw: but, comparatively, someone who /does/ stand for something can probably whoop your ass

[23:21] d4tw: i like that, definitely

[23:21] d4tw: yeah; a mix of "spend to increase" and "spend to adjust"

[23:22] Caspian: mmm

[23:23] d4tw: i think we've really got something here

[23:23] Caspian: well what good thing would come out of having broad virtues?

[23:23] d4tw: the next question is, like

[23:24] d4tw: hrm. how broad?

[23:24] Caspian: like say I have my 10 pts, and the virtues are all at 2

[23:24] Caspian: what good is this (if any)

[23:25] Caspian: redundancy?

[23:25] Caspian: quicker regen?

[23:25] d4tw: mm. you meet the requisite virtue rating for tons of low/moderate techniques?

[23:25] d4tw: ooh, quicker regen!

[23:25] d4tw: maybe mojo regenerates on an exponential scale

[23:25] d4tw: that or mojo regenerates as a roleplaying reward

[23:25] d4tw: in either case, low virtues means faster regen

[23:26] Caspian: yeah like I'm thinking of the strong stand for nothing type

[23:26] Caspian: what is his benefit? besides the fact he isn't insane

[23:26] Caspian: mmm

[23:26] d4tw: he recovers his mojo easily

[23:26] Caspian: ok

[23:26] d4tw: someone with all virtues at an equal footing pretty much recovers mojo by, like, just duding around

[23:26] Caspian: mm

[23:27] Caspian: oh I see

[23:27] d4tw: someone with, like, high compassion recovers mojo by being very compassionate

[23:27] Caspian: and those with specific high virtues have to act very passionately

[23:27] Caspian: or something

[23:27] d4tw: yeah

[23:27] Caspian: to get any points back

[23:27] Caspian: aah

[23:27] Caspian: ok, that I like

[23:28] *** Leumas|Away is now known as LeumasWhite.

[23:29] d4tw: i think i just had my first (and, probably, only) "revolutionary" thought

[23:29] Caspian: oh?

[23:29] d4tw: what if we abandoned the thought of character advancement in terms of power?

[23:29] d4tw: (only semi-serious, here)

[23:29] Caspian: well that makes it more of a narrative game

[23:29] d4tw: yeah

[23:29] Caspian: which by turn technically makes it lighter

[23:30] d4tw: this is true

[23:30] d4tw: but we're already moving rapidly towards a lighter system to begin with

[23:30] d4tw: anyway, to ditch that sidetrack

[23:30] d4tw: i think skills should be linked to a virtue, but not necessarily governed by it

[23:30] Xyphoid: you could let people buy enemies

[23:31] Caspian: hmm maybe like the "raw talent" die idea from WotG?

[23:31] Xyphoid: so at first, you have to fight mooks. then you can purchase nemesiseses as you go

[23:31] d4tw: xyph: yeah!

[23:31] d4tw: well

[23:31] d4tw: that's sort of what loresheets do, yeah?

[23:31] d4tw: or, at least

[23:31] d4tw: is potentially what they can do

[23:31] d4tw: and that's a mechanic i am totally okay with stealing wholesale

[23:32] Xyphoid: loresheets are great, even abstracted out somewhat

[23:32] d4tw: ijon: and yes. i think having a high related-virtue should make your fu more potent.

[23:32] d4tw: like

[23:32] d4tw: even if courage is your big virtue

[23:32] Xyphoid: in wotg they have to double as setting and character skills - but just the idea of a menu of dramatic options provided by the GM is glorious

[23:32] d4tw: if you happen to also have, say, high Discipline

[23:33] d4tw: and your sojutsu is a Discipline-linked skill

[23:33] Xyphoid: none of this integrating adventure hooks into gameplay - players choose what they want to do out of game!

[23:33] d4tw: you get a bonus on your sojutsu rolls for being clear-headed and focused

[23:33] d4tw: xyph: hee

[23:33] Caspian: sojutsu?

[23:34] d4tw: randomly chosen -jutsu?

[23:34] Caspian: oh ok

[23:34] Caspian: fair

[23:34] d4tw: yari art

[23:34] Caspian: yeah, having loresheets being built in is good

[23:34] d4tw: loresheets are too good a mechanic to leave in the festering pit of wotg

[23:35] Caspian: mmm

[23:36] Xyphoid: i am not that excited about necessarily tying setting and player-option-menus together like that

[23:36] d4tw: well, there's definitely a line

[23:36] Xyphoid: but campaign-specific player-option-menus are great

[23:36] Caspian: mm

[23:36] d4tw: xyph: yeah

[23:36] Caspian: this is going neatly

[23:37] d4tw: yeah

[23:37] d4tw: i need to go buy cigarettes >_>

[23:37] d4tw: can you start us up an rpgnet wikipage?

[23:38] Caspian: pick a title

[23:38] d4tw: how do you feel about "Xia"?

[23:39] Caspian: Xia sounds good, I don't think its being used

[23:39] Caspian: lets check

[23:39] d4tw: okie-dokie

[23:39] d4tw: mmm. what's funny.

[23:39] d4tw: in spite of calling it "Xia", and thus implying a wuxia chinese-myth thing

[23:40] Caspian: its more general than that

[23:40] d4tw: this has the beginnings of being a rock-solid system for westerns, star wars, wuxia, high fantasy, and any number of things o.O

[23:40] Caspian: (Link: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Xia)http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Xia

[23:40] Caspian: easy as pie

[23:40] Caspian: I can format

[23:40] d4tw: anything where virtue-focused heroes are the stars

[23:40] Caspian: just someone who's smart throw on text :P

[23:40] d4tw: heh :)

[23:41] Caspian: yeah I'm low on brain juice currentlty