TheStarsAreRight:CarlNote7

CARL

“Join me for some tea, Jack?” Carl had little to say during the ride back to the hotel, but now something is on his mind. By the time you get back to his suite, Julian already has the tea things laid out, and with a few murmurs and a quiet kiss, leaves the two of you so she can see to Richard’s needs.

In an armchair, with a cup in one hand, Carl ponders for a moment before looking quizzically at Jack.

“So. Cecil Becker. What did you think of all that, hmm?”

REDLAND

[Richard? I thought it was Robert, or am I thinking of something else?]

"Ah. Thanks. Don't mind if I do."

Redland snags some tea.

"I know I came out pretty strongly against it in the meeting, but sometimes I'm not whether or not I'm just playing devil's advocate. It's a role towards which I'm naturally inclined.

"For all that I complained that we had more important things to do, I don't know if that's entirely true. To a large extent, I'm happy to defer that decision to you.

"As to what he's actually asking us to do, my objections during the meeting largely hold. I don't have any desire to return this painting to Russia. I don't particularly care about the Russians, and I don't particularly care about the Catholics. That is not to say that I have any special animosity towards either group, but from what I've gathered, Russia is currently 'safe', whether the 'community' is Catholic or Tsarist (or whatever) doesn't really matter to me. That is to say, I don't know that the people of Russia will be any happier living under the oppressive sway of Catholicism than they would under the oppression of the Tsars. If we could help them institute some sort of decent community, I'd be more inclined to undertake the mission from an 'altruistic' standpoint, but as it is ..."

Jacks sips his tea.

"As to what we gain. Well, Mr. Becker did not seem particularly forthcoming with inducements, as far as I could tell. A lot of vague blandishments, in my opinion. I certainly don't want to acquire the ability to destroy millions of people who disagree with my views. From my understanding of the situation, this ability is fairly Russo-specific, so I'm not really worried about it falling into the wrong hands.

"Hmmm. So I guess to a large extent, I'm still skeptical. Also, what is his interest. Is he being forthcoming with us? I'm a bit hazy on exactly what he told us.

"Where do you stand on this? Maybe you can convince me?"

CARL

[ Argh – you’re right – brain fart. I was distracted. ]

“Convince you? Is that my job, now?” Faint smile. “I’m not so sure. There is a lot going on here that isn’t being said; and having Miss, ah, Ripley in the room only made the water that much cloudier. Which I am not happy about; I prefer clarity.” He sips.

“It did not occur to me that the elusive Cecil Becker of London might in any way be related to Colonel Ryan Becker, late of Washington DC and Crazy Peak, Montana ... I’m still not sure what to make of that. Nor am I particularly happy that the two of them, for whatever reason, are deeply involved in the Fight together – and I do not know why it bothers me so. A twin. Hmm.

“But you are correct. It was hard to get specifics out of the man, wasn’t it? He seemed to prefer ominous vagueness to anything concrete; and that catches my attention. “ Carl drinks again, glances at his teacup, and puts it aside.

“By itself, the mission is a good one. Important, yes; but not necessarily important enough to consume *our* time, just now. We need eyes and ears in Russia and we don’t have any; even our ‘friends’ there have been utterly silent. That is a concern. And it’s all well and good to say ‘Russia is protected’, but what if the cure is as bad as the disease? We need to get a research team in there, it is true. And if Russia is virulent, we need them focused on the external threat – rather than, say, deciding to conquer Europe or China.

“So. Why us? Why me? Firstly, because it seems I can afford the time – Tony and his people are tied up for at least a month on vital work -- and because I am partly responsible for putting the Tzar Alexis on the throne. But just as importantly, because there is a link between these ikons, and that monastery, and whatever the Brotherhood is doing. I wish I knew what it was.” He frowns.

REDLAND

"Heh. Well, as I said at the meeting, convincing me isn't necessary to accomplishing anything. As long as you can stand me, I'll go whereever you go. However, if you can convince the skeptic, it often helps clarify your ideas to yourself at the same time.

"Hmmm. Now, I don't know anything about Colonel Becker. Is there anything important I need to know? I will confess to a great deal of ... edginess ... when it comes to military men. Particularly those who are highly ranked. In conjuction with being partial to the use of force, they are often political.

"With Mr. Becker, I would like to know what he gains from what we're doing. I always feel better dealing with someone when it is clear why they are doing something and what advantage will adhere to them. Currently, it sounds as though he is behaving altruistically. It is certainly possible that is the case. After all, we all have an interest in not having the world die out...

"I don't know that the cure could be as bad as the disease. The disease is destruction of the world (emanating through an unprotected Russia). The cure is, most likely, an unpleasant Russia. I agree, that if they wish to become conquerors, that could be harmful. On the other hand, given how Russia is (and has always been), I don't see how they would get past the French, much less the Germans ... and, of course, we have nothing to fear from them. Maybe the eastern Asians, as you say.

"I don't see how returning this picture is going to help, in general. If my options were: Communist Russia, Catholic Russia, or nativist, Tsarist Russia, I'm pretty sure I'd take the latter. They are the least likely to focus their aggression externally.

"Now, if you feel some personal responsibility, that is a perfectly legitimate reason. Especially if there is nothing more important going by the wayside. If you think it is important to establish what is happening with this Brotherhood, that is also fine. I just want to make sure that, given what we know, we're making the optimal decision. I would feel more comfortable if Mr. Becker were a little more forthright, and I'd feel better if I didn't feel like we're going to be helping deliver Russia to the Catholics."

CARL

Carl looks at Jack curiously.

“You keep talking about the Catholics. What do the Catholics have to do with any of this? Aside from the fact that Miss Ripley and Henrik are evidently Catholics, of course. The ikon isn’t Catholic; it’s Russian Orthodox. There’s all the difference in the world.

“So why do we care if a powerful Orthodox ikon is returned to her homeland? After all, the Romanov Tsars were devoutly Orthodox; the Russian people were devoutly Orthodox also; it’s a part of what makes Russia Russian.”

He stops, blinks once; his eyes widen, and he stares at Jack, speaking faster now.

“Russia is half-Orthodox, half pagan. I’d forgotten that. The counterrevolution – it was done with blood magic – elevating the Tsar to a Holy tyrant, with the spirits of the Land to support him – the vodyanoi, domovoi, rusalki – all of those! It was all pagan – what has happened to the Church?”

Carl seems visibly excited, eyes dark, glancing around the room before returning to Jack’s.

“What has happened to the Church, Jack? What *will* happen? It’s half of the axis of tradition – but is it heard?” His eyes wander again, watching invisible things, his hands moving vaguely, drawing. “The land was dead – the land spirits gone or mad. The Church was never a replacement for the pagan reality – merely a guide to better things. Hope in the afterlife – not the practicum, not the *now* of things. Monks, saints, teachers, yes – but the vila and the likho remain, when the priests have gone. Light in the darkness – and that is all. The other half of that ….” He pauses, examining something invisible in his left hand.

“The otyets in Russia – teachers. Not intercessors!” He takes a big breath, lets it out slowly, watching Jack with wide eyes, his hand turning over invisible puzzle pieces.

“Intercession comes from --”

Carl slams his mouth shut, looking as though he’s been sucker punched. He fumbles for his tea, gulping once as if it were a shot of bathtub hootch.

REDLAND

Jack just sits back drinking his tea, perhaps waiting for Carl to continue.

CARL

[ lol – perhaps! ]

After a moment Carl sighs and (reluctantly?) looks up at Jack.

“Theotokos,” he sighs quietly. “Bogoroditsa.

“The Mother of God.” And he waits, in turn, to see if Jack uinderstands.

REDLAND

"Um. That's the Greek term for the Virgin Mary. That's about all I know. I apologize for my ignorance, but these religious things are definitely not an area of expertise for me. That picture was of Mary, right? I thought only the Catholics worshiped Mary. I must be mistaken in that. Er, if the Russians aren't Catholics, why would all those people at the meeting be so excited to return it to them. I thought all of these religious groups viewed each other as heretics. After all, only one of them can be right ...

"Anyhow, I don't want to derail you. It sounds like you've made an important connection. Something to do with reuniting the 'pagan' and Christian elements of teh Russian soul or somesuch. It might be best if you spin the whole thing out before you forget some critical insight."

REDLAND

Jack looks worried for a moment. He speaks tentatively.

"Er, I'm not offending you, am I? I know that religion can be a touchy subject for some people, and I wouldn't want to overstep my bounds. I certainly wouldn't say any of this to some of our esteemed companions, for instance. Let me know if I'm crossing a line or whatnot."

CARL

Carl nods. “Not an issue, Jack. Not with me.

“To Henrik and Miss Ripley, I suppose it’s a matter of degree. Orthodox may not be Catholic, but they’re a lot more “Christian” than pagans are. Also, the presence of something obviously holy and miraculous, like the ikon, has made its impression on both of them in its own right.

“As to the rest – I’m still fumbling here. The symbology has … echoes … on a number of different levels, that are too thick and numerous to be ignored.

“Mary is an intercessor, because … well, the Theotokos isn’t just Mary. Mary isn’t important because she gave birth to Jesus, not entirely. In the Easter Church, it’s more than that – she is the mortal bridge to the divine – the conduit through which God enters the world. And through which the world can reach out to God. A meeting point. In some ways, much like the Principles.

“That’s one thing. Another is that the Theotokos is a powerful, populist, nurturing and change-fostering principle that balances and complements the doctrinaire, ritualistic focus of the Metropolitans, and the central tyrant-figure that is the Tsar himself. The three are analogues of the three Powers, the three Kings, and so on.

“A third thing is the Mother-of-God image itself. We are, repeatedly, faced with … situations … in which the Mother brings forth Her children, and they are more than her … and they are the ones who will change the world.”

He stops again, thinking.

REDLAND

"Hmmm. I apologize. I might not be all that helpful here. It probably won't shock you, but symbolism is not my strong suit.

"I thought that the value of the Virgin Mary was always as the bridge to God. That is, I thought people prayed to her so that she'd take their prayers to God and then he would intercede. She's like a useful middleman, since she's either nicer (more compassionate) than God or maybe just less busy so she's a better listener. Regardless, your point is that her being a 'mortal bridge to the divine' is potentially significant in some way.

"Blast, I'm not sure I know what the Metropolitans are. If it's important, you may have to explain it to me. Again, though, I take it that you're indicating here that Mary sort of represents you, the Metropolitans represent the King of Fate, and the Tsar is represented by the King of the Body?

"And again, on these situations of which you speak... I'm lost at sea.

"However, if you're still germinating ideas, feel free to speak on without filling me in. Sometimes when inspiration strikes it's best to let it flow."

CARL

“True.” Carl waves his hand again, vaguely. “I’m not sure where I’m going with this … inspiration, hunches, they’re not always right.” He looks up. “But so often, lately, the intuition reveals patterns – patterns that *are* important, that turn out to matter a lot. Those patterns are, as often as not, in the fuzzy stuff, the symbolism, the stuff that’s hard to digest in the clinical light of a classroom or a lab.

“The Metropolitans are the priesthood of the Church. Specifically, the bishops and cardinals, if you will. I use the term loosely here, to mean the upper ranks and policy makers, as opposed to monks and deacons or village priests.”

He ponders some more.

“It’s just a lot of pieces, Jack. They feel as though they ought to fit together, that’s all.

“So let’s see…. “ He frowns, concentrating on an elusive thread.

“Sometime in the past thousand years, give or take a few centuries, something – someone – killed the land in Russia. The leys dried up, the ambient all but disappeared. The remnant folklore speaks of a place rich in blood magic, powerful spirits, many dark, others quite benign, but powerful – great and small – that so deeply imbued the character and cultures of the people that even the intercession of the Greek church, then the Mongol Tartars, then the Russian church only added to the mix – never replaced it. The soul of the place is hungry, violent.

“In the midst of all this, there are – were – places of great religious power. Most are gone, but some remain. The monastery from which that ikon, and others, came is one of these.

“I have to wonder if the land was suppressed deliberately, to curb the power of the spirits and their sorcerers – but if so, it had dire consequences. Without the binding effect of the ambient, a long, slow process of collective isolation and … I suppose a form of alienation … sets in. Russia, and Russians, are individually and collectively set adrift, from each other and from the rest of the world. The Church is an anchor, through rite and ritual, but it is, in a sense, crippled – any binding benison is limited, because away from the church, from the ritual itself, there’s nothing to keep it going, do you see? Faith is a candle – but the air is thin in Russia, outside of the churches and holy places.

“Ikons … are like portable churches. More than that – because many of the churches are merely places to store and revere the ikons. Ikons in the Slavonic church are often more important than the priests – because they are known to be able to cause miracles, where priests cannot. Add to that the particular intercessory powers of the Bogoroditsa, and you will see that an ikon like this one, with immediately visible miraculous properties, is going to be a rallying point for the Church like none that have been seen in, well, I don’t know how long.

“I do wonder what the Tsar thinks about all of this. The Tsars in the past were very pro-Church, racist, and anti-sorcery – but that was, apparently, a public face. The rite that was used to destroy the Communists was a Romanov family heirloom, passed down and learned each generation in direct contravention of the laws the ruling family espoused daily.”

Carl fumbles for his drink, swallows, then looks at the now-empty cup in mild surprise before putting it down.

“This isn’t where I was going. There’s something about the Theotokos herself, and the Tsar, and the Tsaritsa Ineska, and the importance of children – and my own role as King of Life – and the need for Russia not only to be strong in its faith, but to be *unified* in its faith – otherwise the protection of the spirit of the land is spotty and depends on the individual. The Tsar, as God-defended ruler, with the Church at his side, is a powerful anchor – but the Tsar as priest-sorceror, with the leshy behind him, is less stable. The presence of an heir – no, a *miraculous* heir – born despite adversity, with the mother and her faith in the Church a metaphor for the Theotokos –

“That is the cement I’m looking for. And that is why I need to go to Russia,” he finishes simply. He pours himself a new cup of tea."

REDLAND

Carl has had a lot of conversations with Jack, and even though Jack is pretty much always wrong about everything, he's usually wrong in a particular way. Like, even though he'll make ludicrous or naive suggestions as to how to proceed, it's clear that he has a good understanding of the situation. Here it is like he's missing something essential, for whatever reason.

"Is the 'killling of the land' similar to what the King of Fate was proposing as a solution to the Outsiders, just on a different scale? Would it be likely, then, that the old King may have been responsible for this? If so, would the new King be able to undo it? I guess that was a lot of 'ifs'...

"Hmmm. Russia has long been a backward country. I suppose if this mysticism stuff has some bearing on actual life, that this could help account for that."

He continues kind of grasping about.

"The thing is, though, that the Tsars and the Church have always had a pernicious effect on Russia. The point may be, that what we're trying to accomplish is more along the lines of preserving the world, as opposed to making it a better place (a point of view with which I can sympathise), but I would feel better if, instead of attempting to instill a Russia built on the twin axes of faith and coercion, we were attempting to offer them a land of reason and freedom. Perhaps we just work with what we're given. Or perhaps my view of the good is too narrow."

He seems almost to be thinking out loud for a moment. "Maybe if there is free movement it doesn't really matter that much. Hmmm. Perhaps breaking down the old order could have value, even if what replaces it is frequently worse... As long as exit is allowed, each society can work as a type of lab experiment..."

He shakes his head.

"Er, sorry. Um. Let's see. So, the upshot of what you're thinking, is that my claim that Russia is 'safe' is incorrect, since it is not particularly robust. Going to Russia would have value, insofar as restoration of the religious orthodoxy will, combined with the monarchy, lead to a stable, unified Russia that will have a greater capacity to withstand Outsider incursions?"

CARL

[ I noticed that – but have no tools to address it, really. So we proceed…. ]

Carl shrugs, smiling.”It’s a theory anyhow. Truth is, we don’t know *what* is going on there until we look.

“Don’t downplay your position, Jack. Reason and freedom are good things, and in my mind at least, ought to be sought after. They do not, however, reinforce magic by themselves or make good defenses against it. What we’re talking about here is reinforcing patterns already etched deep into the land and the people, because those patterns are bulwarks against attack. If Russia were a nation with an ancient and time-honored tradition of reason and freedom, then we could reinforce those to its defense – but we don’t.

“And it’s not entirely true that the Tsars and the Church have been bad for Russia, though it does seem to be so in the last hundred years or so. Antonov writes very persuasively that the Slavonic Church and its integration into public life was one of the things that actively preserved Russian culture during the Tartar occupation, and helped it rebound with vigor after the Tartars were overthrown. Certainly the Russian Empire of the fourteenth through seventeenth centuries was, by the standards of its day, a vigorous and rising polity – though the life of the individual peasant wasn’t particularly wealthy or enlightened.”

REDLAND

"Well, I certainly bow to your superior knowledge of how these things work. Certainly, one reasonable way for me to think about this, would be that the first thing we need to concentrate on doing is making sure the world doesn't end. If that happens, then nothing else is all that important. Even if I were to think that we were definitely making the Russians worse off, if it is a necessary component to preserving the world, well, there's always the opportunity to 'fix' Russia later. Hmmmm. So, it sounds like we're definitely going to be journeying to Russia. Not a place I've ever had any desire to visit, but what're you going to do?"

He smiles and shrugs.

"I wonder if we can get anything more substantive out of Mr. Becker. I've never been a master of bargaining, but, if we're going to agree to do some work for him, we might as well try to squeeze some more concessions out of him... unless we're already considering him an ally, in which case, I suppose it can often be advantageous to do something as a favor. Do you think there's anything more we can accomplish on the Becker front, or do you think that ship has sailed?"

CARL

“Becker, hmm? “ Carl nods. “Cecil Becker took me by surprise all right. I don’t know what I expected, but it wasn’t him.”

Sips.

“Ryan Becker, Cecil’s brother, is a real straight arrow, stand-up sort of fellow, or so it always appeared to me. Like I said before, he’s an Army colonel; he commands an Army unit that is specifically charged with fighting occult intrusions onto American soil. The US government has a number of projects going on that front, but Becker’s is the biggest in terms of manpower. He and his men have been effective at pushing back at things too big or messy for little groups like ours to do much good. What he lacks, as far as I can tell, is good reconnaissance; his forces are excellent once they arrive, but it takes time for them to get somewhere, and they don’t get much advance warning. However, that will probably change; the Americans are working hard at their own research and development, and can probably come up with useful tools, including detection instruments faster than any of us – including Pentheus – can.

“Meanwhile, I and mine have dropped them tips when we’ve found evidence of things about to happen; and once or twice we’ve been able to lend a hand as subject matter experts, though that’s a bit edgy. Most of the folks who work with me don’t want to be attached to Government service. Any government.” He smiles.

“So here we see Ryan’s brother, living overseas, gathering intelligence and knowing quite a bit, obviously, about things that Ryan and his Army buddies could benefit from knowing. On the one hand, that makes sense – he’s likely to learn a lot from sources that won’t talk to Government men, and can probably complement the efforts of others – but on the other, it scarcely instills confidence. I wonder whether Cecil actually works for the US, or is entirely independent?”

REDLAND

"I don't mean to sound paranoid, but I just wonder if we should trust him. When we tried to contact him last time, he did not appear in any hurry to speak with us, but instead fobbed us off on his lackey, Mr. Handley. Did this painting change his mind, somehow? How long has he actually had it in his possession? It does strike me that if somebody wanted to eliminate you, Russia would be a pretty good place to do so. We'll be in the middle of nowhere, relying on his contacts. Our position seems, potentially, precarious."

He grins wryly.

"My being suspicious must seem silly to you. After all, I, apparently, trust and associate with the Dark Pharaoh. I can't deny, that a particular character ... er, trait ... of mine, is that if everyone tells me not to do something, I amm, as you know, highly disposed to want to do that thing. The reverse also holds true. Perhaps my antagonism towards Mr. Becker is driven by the fact that everyone at the meeting, other than you, seemed to trust him and was eager to do his bidding.

"However, I don't think that's the case. It's more a case of how suddenly things happened, a question of 'why us?', his general mysteriousness, and the precariousness of the situation that will surround us in Russia.

"As to Colonel Becker, I guess I'm one of those who work with you who dislikes governments in general. By construction, everything they do is at the barrel of a gun. It can't be denied, though, that if you need to accomplish a specific task, having the resources of a friendly government at your disposal can hardly be overvalued. I would definitely feel more comfortable working with an entity such as Pentheus, than I would with an entity like the United States Government."

CARL

“Hmm.” Carl chuckles. “My experience is the reverse. Corporations, especially private ones, seem to be less trustworthy than governments all in all. Not that either one is particularly safe to work with.

“Our position in Russia will indeed be precarious, at least potentially. The borders are closed; even though I do have some friends inside, I have not seen or heard from them lately, and have no idea what they are up to, what they want, or whether my notions of friendship still apply. Also, an object of power like the Weeping Mary is by nature a political hot potato. We may expect all sorts of factions wanting to control it, turn it back, speed it on its way or capture it for themselves. Becker wants us to return the work to the monastery where it was made. The Tsar may have different ideas.

“I’ll need to talk to Becker about this; he is right that taking the ikon will get us into Russia, where we can learn something of the landscape, but it may not be possible to get the ikon to its intended destination. I want to find out just how important that is to him.”

REDLAND

"Also, how important it is to our traveling companions, including these museum folk. I don't know how things have been recently, but we've never been the world's most cohesive group. Not that I'm pointing fingers, as I seem to be one of the primary dissidents. Anyhow, one thing we don't need is an object that will fracture the 'team spirit'. Obviously, you know where I stand in relation to this painting. Namely, I have no inherent interest in it, and I don't really care where it ends up. That, of course, would change if we agreed to deliver it to a particular place. Some of the others appeared to have a more visceral reaction to it, which could, conceivably, create problems down the line."

CARL

“Good point. Several. In fact I expect to test that very issue, before we go into Russia.” Carl raises his eyebrows.

“Assuming that everyone agrees to make the trip, my intent is to go from here, to the Estate (to pick up the other ikon), then to Geneva (to speak with Emma Hamilton), and then to Rome. I’m setting Vienna aside for a short while, both because Auda isn’t here, and because I think Rome will teach us a few things, about one another and about how the ikon makes waves.

“From Rome we board ship – hopefully to Odessa. If we can get official clearance we’ll take the train overland from there. No skulking about this time.” He seems amused.

REDLAND

"Hmmm. A couple of quick questions:

"1) I've probably asked this before, but can I go to the Wisphers Estate?

"2) What are we planning to do in Rome? Aside from departing for Russia, that is?"

CARL

"Yes you can, with limitations. The 'finger' that is on you is not large, so the defenses will not stop you -- particularly if you're with me. However I daresay the House will feel uncomfortable to you as long as you are there.

"As for Rome, well. I want to take our newcomer friends to a couple of places in Rome where the faith is especially strong, and gauge their reactions. I also want to take the ikon around, and gauge the Church's reactions, to it and to us. Think of it as a dry run on Russia, in a place where I can call on a lot more help if anything goes pear-shaped. Make sense to you?"

REDLAND

"Well good. I'll go from an uncomfortable boat to an uncomfortable house ... I like to stay consistent."

"About Rome. Sure. That makes sense to me. If things go sideways, it's definitely best to be in a controlled environment.

"One thing I'm wondering, though, is why the painting is so important. That is, I understand that a painting that creates a 'weeping' sound is mildly interesting, since usually paintings just sit there. However, it doesn't seem that miraculous. Does it do anything else, or is the crying sound it? Otherwise, it seems far less exciting then, say, telepathy."

CARL

"Ah. Yes. On a conceptual level, I agree; telepathy is more interesting, has more potential, than a picture that cries. But you must remember that this is not merely a picture, but an ikon. An object of religious adoration, a focus for the faith; and in the iconography of that faith, both in the Catholic and in the Orthodox churches, the image of the Virgin Mary who weeps for the sins of the world is one that has been spoken of, written about, painted, dreamed of, and fought for for centuries. A tangible, visible manifestation of that image will draw crowds, inspire fervor and get important people to sit up and notice where a man who says he can read your thoughts, and proves it, merely raises suspicion and unease.

"I don't know that Becker's ikon does anything but weep. However, that is more than enough to make it matter. Do you see?"

REDLAND

"To an extent. It causes me to think of a potential ... scheme ... that we could perpetrate. Could we not get a talented painter, say our friend, Henrik, and have him paint some nice symbolic pictures. Then we could hand them over to someone like you. You could then enchant them. For instance, I'm a bit hazy on my religious knowledge, but some of the monotheists, I believe, place some value on the stigmata. All of the religions, I imagine, have something to do with healing, so we could try something with that....

"Anyhow, if we produced enough of these things, we could export these things to other peoples that have a monotheistic heritage, like the Catholics, Islamics, Protestants, Jews, etc., and reignite the faith of millions, perhaps a billion people. This could make a lot of places 'safe', right?"

CARL

"Hmm." Carl considers this. "It feels like cheating. But at the same time, there's some sense to it.

"Lord knows, there have been enough hypocritical clergy in history. Do the ends justify the means?"

He smiles. "You wouldn't get Henrik to paint them though. He takes his faith seriously."

REDLAND

"We might be able to get him on-board. As you could tell from the meeting with Mr. Becker, he is the closest thing I have to an ally on the matter of Pentheus.

"As to means and ends, it certainly seems to me that the consequentialists have the edge here. At the end of the day, happiness is what is really important. Most people act like this is true, even if they won't admit to it. For instance, with the Protestants, the carrot is heaven. If you are a good fellow, you'll get eternal happiness in heaven. Even a Kantian, when trying to persuade you, will shoehorn in welfare arguments.

"The big problem the consequentialists have in capturing the imagination of the public, is twofold: they are too rational (no mystery) and their symbols aren't epic. The Communists haveEquality, the Kantians have Virtue, the monotheists have God. What do the utilitarians have? Happiness. How prosaic. The Communists have the class struggle, Kantians have the hypothetical imperative (okay, that's maybe more impressive to philosophers than to the public), and monotheists have sacred texts. The utilitarians have the 'Hedonistic Calculus'.

"You could see this with the group during the meeting. The scorn with which 'appeasement' is held. Fighting and dying ... that's noble. Appeasement ... that's the act of coward. That's fine. Everyone else can be noble and fight and hold their head's high. I'll do what it takes to keep the world safe. If that means being a groveling lackey and making deals with Outsiders like the Dark Pharaoh, so be it. They'll curse my name, but, in truth, they'll be happy to be alive. I'm not concerned with my pride or what others think of me. Am I being arrogant in thinking this way? Probably. I will, however, continue to analyze things, rationally, to the best of my ability, and I'll continue to push for ideas that will help as many people possible survive and prosper in the world to come, even if it means humiliation and weakness in the short-term."

CARL

Carl smiles. "It's good to have you aboard, Jack. You know where you stand and are unashamed to say so. That sort of forthright honesty is gold to me; you have seen how rare it is, I think.

"You're right, too, about symbols. In the game of mystic powers, symbols -- as well as how strongly they're held close by the people -- have immense value; in some ways, they define the rules of the encounter and the means of measuring success, because the observer -- or perhaps I should say the participant, there are no passive observers in ponics -- inevitably affects the encounter and is affected by it. Merely perceiving something changes it, and also changes the perceiver; and the vivdness and commonality of the symbols used to interpret that perception help to set the event's power to make change happen." He laughs quietly. "Reminds me of a Swedish fellow I met a year or two ago. He said there was a mathematical basis in straight-up physics for the notion that perception inevitably alters the thing perceived. I wonder what he would have said if I'd told him it was always a two-way street?"

REDLAND

"That's one thing I was wondering about with my idea to, er, falsify religious artifacts. Is there any 'inherent' truth to any of these beliefs (God, Odin, Raven, Ra, Zeus, whatever?) Does it really matter, at all, what people believe, or does it simply matter that they believe it strongly. If I could get the Scandanavians all fired up about belief in Satan, or if I could get the Sioux to become huge believers in numerology, would that suffice to protect the land? Further, would that mean that numbers would gain power in Sioux territories?"

CARL

Carl ponders.

"I don't want to come off here as too much of an expert, however I can share with you my impressions, if you like, and the reasons for them.

"I suspect that the answer lies somewhere in between. Yes *and* no, rather than yes *or* no; and I'm not the fellow to tell you whether God -- or any of the many named Gods -- has a substantive, objective reality that is distinct from anyone's beliefs, including religion, ponics, physics, or what have you. My faith, on that level, is irrelevant.

"The world soul, as I've modeled it, takes characteristics from the substances that compose it. Those substances accept and reinforce patterns, in turn, from the individuals and groups that live within it. Faith, passion, and repetition strengthen the patterns. In effect, the unity "learns" from its members, what is good and bad, right and wrong, acceptable or not. It is a living, communal thing, as you might say, very Utilitarian.

"Does God exist? Do any of the ancient Gods exist? Yes. Are they all created figments, subpatterns of the world soul, or are they more? Empirically, I don't know. I have seen Ra. And Osiris. But was Ra created out of millenia of repetitive worship, or did Ra preexist that worship? Are the patterns imprinted on the Unity by the worshipers, or by the Gods, or both? After a certain point, I am certain it is both -- but where did it begin? I don't know.

"Belief, by itself, doesn't provide protection. Belief in powerful protectors , to the point that those protectors show up, provides protection. Those protectors might take the form of patron gods, as in the Egyptian case, or sheer bloody-minded ethnic, cultural or moral superiority, as in the German rassenverein. Or the communal God-walks-among-us of Shiloh. Or the vigilant ancestor spirits of Voudun or the Hopi kachina. Satan's probably not a great protector though. I don't think so anyway."

REDLAND

"Hmmm. That's interesting. It strikes me as important for a couple of reasons. First, I've never believed in any of this supernatural stuff, and I'd feel better about myself if these things weren't, er, objectively true, but were merely subjectively true. Either way, of course, my prior beliefs were mistaken, but it is less vexing to be mistaken for the right reasons then for the wrong ones. Heck, I'd generally prefer to be mistaken for the right reasons then to be correct for the wrong ones...

"Anyway, my self-esteem aside, there are two (related) reasons this seems important to me:

"1) If there is no need for objective truth to the beliefs, then, in essence, we can get people to believe anything we want, so long as, as you say, it is a belief in a protector of sorts. We can exaggerate, fabricate, lie, if need be, so long as we can convince enough people to believe. Obviously, it is easier to get people to believe something traditional, but really, anything they are predisposed to believe would work.

"2) If it doesn't really matter how old a belief is or how true, any strong, protection belief is as good as another. If the new German nationalism (which seems to be of a specific type, so it wouldn't be as old as nationalism itself) is just as powerful as Ra, then it would seem that length of belief is irrelevant, as is 'truth' of belief. All that matters, then, is strength of belief.

"Satan seems like he'd be an alright protector. I mean, I'd prefer somebody like Tyr, since I doubt I'd want to actually live in a domain where Satan was the guardian spirit, but you'd probably be safe from Outsiders (it'd be the Insiders who'd be a bit dicey).

"It's odd. I guess I'm not of much use to the world soul. Since I don't believe in anything I don't provide it with any power. By the same token, it would seem that I'd also be a particularly poor 'wizard'."

CARL

Carl sighs. "Some aspects of this conversation make me very uneasy -- which I suppose merely means it's harder for me to be objective than it is for you.

"As far as length of belief is concerned, I suspect that though that may seem true, we are probably in a special case right now, inasmuch as the Well of Souls was only recently repaired and the world is still waking up. This might, then, be a good time to establish a toehold on faith history, hmm? The Unity has memory too -- but it's just woken up, and is learning from us right now. Later on, that might not be so true.

"And one thing I don't want to do is teach the Wold Soul to lie -- or that lies are more useful than truth."

REDLAND

"Certainly truth is to be generally preferred to a lie. I'd say there are three main reasons for this:

"1) Advancement of knowledge. If an economist is falsifying his data, one of two things happens. Either he gets caught and his reputation is destroyed or he is not caught and the discipline suffers. I am hard-pressed to think of a situation where lying in matters of cumulative knowledge leads to an improvement in the world.

"2) It's a lot simpler. If you ask me how my date with Ms. Caine went, and I don't want to tell you, so I lie and say I lost my memory of the event, then every time I talk to you, I have to remember two versions of history. This can be complicated. If I say that Ms. Caine's hair looks great in a ponytail, you may wonder how I know that, since the only time she wore it that way was on our date. Further, if I go talk to Rebecca and she asks me the same question, I then have to worry if I tell her the truth that it will get back to you. I have to devote much more mental activity to maintain the lie.

"3) It's good for others to consider you honest, and the easiest way to have others think of you as honest is to simply be honest.

"On the other hand, truth is only an instrumental value, not an end to itself. If your wife sees a girl walking by and asks you if this girl is prettier than she is, if that girl is Helen of Troy, you may be in a bind. If you say, 'Yes', you may hurt your wife's feelings, but if you say, 'No', your wife may trust you less. I'd, of course, say 'No', but a Kantian would condemn my weak adherence to the truth.

"More extreme, would be a situation where an assassin comes to my house, where my wife is sleeping, and asks me if she's home. I would obviously lie and say that she was not there. I wouldn't feel the slightest qualms of conscience about such a lie.

"Truth is good, but it is assuredly subservient to other goals, in particular, happiness.

"If the World Soul is like a five-year-old, then it may be best to not offer a nuanced version of honesty. Telling the truth is a good default position, and if a person (or entity) is not sophisticated enough to determine when lying will lead to a net increase in utility, then the simple rule of truth always should be preferred.

"If the World Soul is more cunning, though, or could be taught to be, it seems like it would be best to give it an optimal set of tools. Selective lying can be one of these tools. Similar to the coming of the assassin, if an Outsider asks the World Soul if there exists a weak spot in our defenses somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, I'm inclined to thing the World Soul should lie through its teeth ... er, teethlike objects."

CARL

[ Sorry for the delay --I moved this weekend, and the new place doesn't have internet access yet, so email is hard to come by ....]

"Hmm. It may be convenient to consider the Unity as a five-year-old, but the analogy can't be stretched too far. In some ways, it's better, in others it's worse.

"Let me be vague, for a moment, to outline some basics.

"Think of the Worldsoul as a sea of potentially intelligent, potentially aware 'stuff'. For the most part, it's 'asleep', unaware and possessed of only basic tropisms -- its personal 'laws of nature'. The energies that comprise it, however, can be encouraged to act in concert, either by constraining them, as in devices or spells, which take advantage of those laws, or by imprinting them with signatures and templates of one sort or another. In either case, the more soulstuff that weaves together to act in concert, the more powerful the aggregate becomes -- and also the more acute and far reaching its perceptions, and the more, ah, willful the aggregate becomes. Beyond a certain point of complexity, the aggregate can be said to wake up, to become aware of and interested in itself and it surroundings -- but that awareness and the nature of that interest are colored by the constraints and templates that went into its awakening.

"Now, it is possible to awaken the stuff in larger or smaller chunks, from tiny sprites such as you've seen me create, up to a Unity enclosing the entire planet or more. Any chunk large enough to be borne by and protect a populace is not so much a five-year-old, but a preternaturally intelligent, perceptive and willful newborn who learns from the templates within itself as much as from its surrounds.

"So the question becomes, how does such an individual perceive and learn? It learns from us. Mostly ponically, that is, and the complexity and intensity of ponic information is greater in mankind than in most other living things. We are, for good or ill, the most influential template-makers -- and we, in the main, are deaf and blind to ponics. Our ponic structures are affected by the things we do and know and believe, but it's all unconscious, second-hand. Those structures are affected broadly by physical stress, for good or ill, and more strongly by the basic impulses that affect us most deeply on a primal emotional level. That is why faith, and passion, love and hate and fear and joy are so important when awakening a protector -- why dry logic is not -- and why the rites and myths that evoke deep responses in a population are the ones that will make the most difference to the world soul in that locale.

"Does that make sense to you?

"Most people, as I say, are deaf and blind to the ponic world. Soldiers, or Blessed, such as Rebecca or Boris, have the ability to interact directly with their own personal ponic structures. For that reason, they are more deeply influential on the Unity and its parts than ordinary men. The Fae, the Islanders, and the other Children of the Principles are also immensely influential - because they, in their ways, are each more closely tied into the energies of the world souls. That is a part of their value in the Fight.

"Do you see?"

REDLAND

[It's funny. 15 years ago, I wouldn't have known what you're talking about. 10 years ago, I would have thought it was no big deal. Now, it's like, 'No Internet? How do you live?!' :) I hope everything's going well in the new abode.]

"Hmmm. You know, I actually talked about this a little bit with Rebecca a long while back. Albeit not in regards to the Worldsoul, so I didn't put the pieces together. I'd meant to follow up with you on the 'intelligence' of ponics, but either I did and have forgotten about it, or it's just something that got lost among all of my other thoughts.

"It is odd to me that it doesn't learn through reason and thought, but instead learns through emotion and feeling. It obviously causes me a bit of trepidation. Decisions based on emotion will tend to be haphazard and only accidentally optimal. 'Dry logic' is consistent ... predictable. When you're counting on someone (or something), these are attributes that are desirable.

"It also highlights what a marginal figure I am (and will be) in the world. 'Faith,' 'the primal emotional level,' these things are the antithesis of what I represent. Does this put me at odds with the Worldsoul? Will my presence undermine your efforts to raise protectors? Will the world to come have a place for me?"

Redland shakes his head.

"This is something I've considered before. It has always been obvious that I'm an outsider ... er, that's with a lowercase 'o'. I'm a 'hanger-on' ... and maybe that's the way it will always be."

CARL

"Well, I wouldn't set yourself aside all that quickly. It's not that the Unity doesn't think, or can't, or doesn't *learn* through thought - it's that the primordial means by which the mundane and the ponic worlds *communicate* is through the visceral. Which makes sense if you think about the way the whole thing arises. Thought -- or at least logic -- is only one possible mode of existence, and not the first arising on this Earth. In fact there is substantial evidence to support the conclusion that mankind is the most complex natural species on the planet, the one filled with most potential and the most capable of affecting both the Unity and causality, precisely *because* we have grown up head-blind, unaware of those rich and influential flows that bind everything. It is the very struggle, the stubborn and willful thrashing against the patterns of influence that I call the Blind Dance and others call Free Will, that makes us so valuable, to the world and to the Outsiders -- and also makes mankind the caretakers of this body in which we live, whether we will it or no.

"Consider: There are modes of information in the 'magic realm' -- the Master of the Tower has access to them, and so does the Tibetan Sanctuary -- in which the most likely consequences of any action were simply obvious to all, without thought or consideration. In such an environment, where everyone and everything simply *knew* how things would most likely go before it happened, would there ever be any reason for logic to be discovered? Or for cognitive thought, true intellect, to arise at all? The only limits on a sort of autonomic machinelike predestination would be set by how far ahead one perceived -- or on how far away one was capabe of noticing things. In short, upon one's -- upon anyone's -- ability to be surprised by something.

"I'm getting a bit distracted. Dry logic is *very* desirable, oh yes. But arises from isolation, from many-ness, not from one-ness. If we hadn't been isolated, we wouldn't have anything to contribute to the partnership when we come together. The visceral forms of communication can serve to awaken the Unity, or pieces of it -- but once awake, aware, capable of thought and self-consciousness, it must learn about thought and logic and ethics and all of that too -- and fast! So the traditional methods only get us so far. The folkloric patterns help us, in that they serve to imprint humanlike templates, that impart person-like habits, and thus we are dealing with something that thinks and acts at least recognizably. There is, however, further to go."

[oh yeah. Boxes everywhere,and nothing is find-able.  :) ]

REDLAND

"That makes some sense. However, it sort of feels to me like we're constructing flawed vessels and then attempting to patch them up ex-post. These 'protectors' are not created tabula rasa. If we're jamming these things full of faith and tradition, we're not going to be creating 'beings' that will be inclined to logic. Zeus didn't spend a lot of time in contemplation, and he's the construct of the most enlightened of ancient people. I'm just worried, because the ancients were stupid and barbaric, and the passions that drive people are, generally, stupid and barbaric. I don't doubt that protectors formed in such a fashion can be effective in dealing with external foes, I just wonder whether we can put the pieces together, after the Outsiders have left, in an appealing fashion."

Jack scratches at his chin for a moment before continuing.

"It's always easy to criticize (which what I like about it), but I'm not sure I have anything positive to add. Perhaps it is as you say, better to start with a human-like entity (even if I find it flawed) than it would be to start from scratch, the latter taking too long to generate anything useful."

CARL

Carl too is silent for a moment, thinking.

"I don't like it much -- but I understand your objection. Not sure what to do about it though. The communication barrier is ...

"The soldiers are able to overcome it, I suppose. But there aren't very many of them."

REDLAND

[I'm strongly inclined to keep the entire group together at this point. I also think it would probably be a good idea to focus on things that would be of interest to our new players. Thus, what I'm going to suggest next is, I think, pretty much a non-starter, but I'll still go ahead and run it out there. It may give us a couple of options as to the next part of the conversation.]

After Carl speaks, Redland allows the conversation to lag for a bit while Carl grabs some more tea.

"You mentioned that your intention is to travel to the Wisphers Estate, then go to Geneva, then Rome, and finally, from Rome to Odessa. I suppose there may also be one or two more days spent here in England. How many days would you estimate it will be before you undertake the trip from Rome to Odessa?

"I ask, because I wonder if it would make sense (and be feasible) for me to make a quick trip back to New York while the rest of you are doing these things. I don't have any business in Geneva or Rome, and the only thing I'd want to do at Wisphers is check in to see how Laura is doing, which probably isn't wholly necessary.

"I'd like to recover my journals, if possible, and it would probably behoove me to speak with Ms. Caine to see if she might happen to have any knowledge of why my memory is so sketchy. If the Fae had picked up any information on Donal's whereabouts, I could take a gander at that. Heck, since it appears that the Brotherhood is a significant player in Russia, I could also check in with Pentheus and see if they have any current, relevant information for us regarding this commmon antagonist.

"It would certainly require me to hop through some teleporters, which is always a bit dicey, but, from what we've talked about, I'm not sure how much value I'll be to you in Rome."