TheStarsAreRight:PentheusConversation
REDLAND
"Carl, you know how I feel about the Pentheus issue, but, at the end of the day, I'm part of your team, and if you decide we need to go against Pentheus, I'll support you.
"While I was thinking about Ms. Caine, it struck me that, if you wanted to 'attack' Pentheus, perhaps the simplest solution would be legal. I have to confess that the U.S. legal system is not my specialty, but I think we have some lines of attack.
"Despite the broad discretion in contract allowed by New York v. Lochner (I think that's the name of the currently 'controlling' case), there are certain rights that Americans deem 'inalienable': Namely, right to prevention of bodily harm and right to liberty.
"Thus, even though the slave tattoos and 'sacrifices' are voluntary, this is still not permissible as a matter of contract. Therefore, Pentheus is guilty of unlawful detainment and murder.
"If you had the ear of someone in government, you could probably get them to press the case with the information we have at our disposal, leaving us with our hands clean, and, perhaps more importantly, it would free up our time. While using any of the information Pentheus freely gave us in our meeting would be ignoble, we have plenty of other sources indicating their forbidden actions. This should be enough to get, at the very least, injunctions on their experimental activities. Even if they defeat the lawsuits, the time lost should be enough to prevent them from going forward with their plans. If nothing else, it would give us time to achieve our solution before they close any avenues off.
"It would also be a moral solution to a sticky problem.
"I could try to set-up an appointment with either a constitutional, contract, or criminal lawyer (not sure which would be best) if you thought this was a line of attack you would want to pursue at some point (possibly after we've observed the trial)."
CARL
“Thank you, Jack. I really appreciate the fact that you’re thinking of things like this, even though you may not agree with my misgivings about Pentheus.
“I would never have thought of an approach like this. I’m not a lawyer, and do not have much
experience with the law or the courts.” He laughs quietly. “And the past several years acting as a glorified vigilante has not exactly increased that experience either.
“So let’s talk about this for a moment. Let me share some concerns with you, see what you think.
“Firstly, I am very impressed with the implied size, power, wealth and influence of the Pentheus organization. I don’t have any hard facts, and we are certainly not without resources ourselves, but they are well entrenched, an established company, no doubt with many ties both politically and economically. I would wager that if it comes to a court case, they will be able to find and buy the best help, and pull in favors here or there to help their cause and possibly oppose ours.
“Secondly, despite my own personal campaign to get the facts of the Rise of Magic into the public eye and the hands of the defenders of public safety, I myself am rather uncomfortable with the thought of being personally put on stage to defend it. I know, I meet with people in positions of power all the time – but that’s not the same thing as having a day – or a month – in court, or being drawn under the scrutiny of the press. That doesn’t make you wrong; it may in fact make you more right; but it does make me reluctant to think about taking this thing to court myself in any way.
“Thirdly, the case you make sounds plausible, at least in terms of American law. What about the rest of the world? Pentheus are American patriots, but you know they’re trying to do things on a global scale. Their goal may be to save the United States, but I’d bet they’d be happy to move their operations to other countries if it meant they could work undisturbed, knowing that in the end the map Is a human fiction.
“Ehh. I’m maundering. You’re still right. It’s a good approach, at least it sounds like one. I simply don’t know how to go about it with confidence. I do know people in the government who might be able to steer this course – but it wouldn’t be me. Couldn’t be.
“Also, it may be a niggle, but I don’t think Pentheus is guilty of imprisonment as yet, and perhaps not even murder. After the field trials, yes – at least of conspiracy to commit murder, if not the act itself. And if we participate, even passively, in those trials, and do nothing to stop them, we are ourselves accessories to the crime.
“So this is morally quite grey. Quite grey indeed.
“But despite my abhorrence of the whole affair, is this the time to stop it?” He sighs. “I fear I have been tainted by too much contact with the Tower folks. Nothing seems clean or honest any more. There is no high road.”
REDLAND
As Carl speaks, Redland jots down some notes.
"Hmmm. I think that some of your concerns are reasonable. Let's see, on the issue of whether or not we would defeat Pentheus in court, the outcome is certainly unclear. On the face of it, they don't have a leg to stand on. However, I'm not sure what we (and by extension the person(s) we would 'tip-off' to prosecute the case for us) have any actual evidence of wrong-doing. We'd probably need something reasonably convincing to get the case off of the ground.
"Furthermore, as you say, they are wealthy, powerful, and local. Not to imply that the justice system is crooked, but they may have some ability to sweep the case under the rug unless some publicity was generated that would make this awkward for all involved.
"On the other hand, I think if we could clear those hurdles, it doesn't matter as much if we actually win the case. The preliminary injunction (assuming we cleared the evidence/publicity barriers) would be highly probable, I presume. This would delay their operations for a long time, making the eventual outcome of the case irrelevant.
"On the second issue, pertaining to your personal involvement, I think that would be one of the advantages of the scheme. The case would be a criminal matter, so it would be prosecuted by the government. There is no particular reason your name would ever have to be known. In particular, if you knew someone in the government, they could take steps to insure you weren't drawn in, even if you were the person providing the information to help prosecute the case. We could just give them some information and then wash our hands and walk away, saving the world while Pentheus and the government battle it out in court. Heck, it'd be a bit underhanded, but we could even continue to work with Pentheus, if we wanted to.
"As to the third issue, it would be my guess that most countries with a common law tradition would forbid their actions. Heck, even the civilized countries with a civil law tradition would forbid them. Alas, this would still let them operate on the continents of Asia, Africa, and South America as well as parts of North America and Europe with impunity.
"However, it certainly appears that the primary base of operations is here in the United States and their secondary location appears to be in the United Kingdom. Take those out of play and they will lose valuable time as well as considerable resources. They may also lose their will to proceed.
"For the 'niggling' issue, I too am uncertain as to whether they've done anything illegal, yet. Boris seems to thing they're dirty, but I'm not sure if he's thinking prospectively or retrospectively. Given that I'm the only one who likes Pentheus, I'm sure the rest of the crew would be happy to go digging.
"Insofar as participation in the field trials goes, I think you are right, to an extent. Since we'd just be using the crimes as a pretext to stop their actions, it might not matter if we were implicated. In defending themselves, Pentheus would also be defending us... unless, I guess, they could figure out some way to scapegoat us.
"It's definitely a point worth considering, though. The obvious solution would be to not participate in the trials. Dang, I must say, I don't love arguing against my own position! As you suggest, perhaps the best thing to do would be to let them proceed. And, since I've been so constant with my support for the Pentheus solution, I'll try not to be a moral coward. Even though the thought of watching someone being sacrificed before my eyes sickens me, if we agree to witness the field trials, I'll be there. It is, figuratively, the least I can do.
"Finally, given that I've probably already irredeemably condemned myself by making a deal with the Dark Pharaoh and accepting the "ruby of evil", I figured I'd mention that if you ever need anyone to take on some more corruption, let me know. As long as it doesn't involve hurting anyone, I'm probably your man...
"Anyhow, I don't know if Henrik, Gillian, Boris, Rebecca, or Roxanne would have any opinions on using the law as a weapon, but we could run it by them if you think it would help."
CARL
Carl pauses, frowning in thought, then rolls his shoulders, straightening, his eyes wide, as if some unseen shroud or burden were being lifted away.
“Yes,” he says. “No.” He bites his lower lip, puzzling as if at a poorly-understood joke.
“Sacrifice … is sacred,” he muses. “Vital. Self-willed, freely chosen sacrifice has … incredible power. Importance. Forced sacrifice, either coerced or through, hmm, misinformation … is an abomination.
“This isn’t a matter of American law. Or at best incidentally. There’s another layer here, a deeper one. One where the Pharaoh plays. Where the Kings must play. Why do I keep forgetting that?
“Theo does too….”
The smile is real now. Carl nods at Jack, catching his gaze, almost conspiratorial.
“Jack, this is a damned hard job. I’m glad you’re here. Thank you. You help me see.
“The issue isn’t merely moral. Or legal. It’s … ritual. Archetypal. There are rules in play… rules of nature, of magic, of the forces that make things real. Change them? Change what *is*. This isn’t just about survival; it’s about *what* survives.
“The Pharaoh knows. With Its talk of … husbandry … and wanting to see the Earth and Mankind continue … do you think It sees Pentheus as friend or foe? Pentheus is ‘dirty’, yes – because despite what we have heard, the sacrifice becomes invol- untary, because the victims are not self-chosen, not informed. Maybe not the first of them, but those that follow … yes. And the company itself! They do not know what they are buying, do they? They themselves have not offered their own fates… have they?
“Because – perhaps – they don’t know what it is they’re trying to do. They have come so far, on the work of others. I don’t know whose. NWI’s? Eveling’s? Some others I’ve never heard of? It doesn’t matter. The matter of choice, of free will and sacrifice, is and must always be an *individual* one. That is the archetypal impera- tive!”
Carl gets up, paces a bit, unable to sit still, thinking aloud.
“How can we fix this, Jack? The Pentheus solution is not the worst one. Dispas- sionately, from a tyrant’s view, it has much to offer. It even has, in some ways, a very good outcome. So, how? How, Jack?”
Carl stops, facing Jack directly, curious, eyes bright.
“Explain to me, Jack! Why do you like Pentheus? Why do you favor their solution? What does it offer – to you? What is it you see?
“And would you knowingly offer up your life to make that future come to pass?”
REDLAND
"You ask some difficult questions... so let me begin with one I can answer easily: Why do I like Pentheus?
"The first thing, is that I like their outcome. Oh, certainly, the loss of life is appalling... unfathomable, really. And I don't mean that figuratively. I literally don't think I can conceive of what a billion people dying means. However, at this point, I've heard of four possible outcomes: One 'god', capped well, Pentheus, and Outsider victory. Of these four, the Pentheus outcome certainly seems the most palatable. It seems the most conducive to, I don't know, freedom... arete... something like that, anyway.
"Not to denigrate mystical things like Generals and Principles and rituals, but the second thing I like about Pentheus is that their solutions seems... human. Sure, there's some mystical stuff going on, but at its heart, they're using science, negotiation, engineering. We'll take the best of what mankind has learned and apply it for the salvation of the race. These are things that I can understand and seem like a strong human response.
"I like that they're trying to avoid coercion. They're using volunteers. They're raising capital and purchasing land. They're not looking to take over governments to impose their will, but are instead attempting to persuade people of the rightness of their actions.
"I like that they're trying to maximize a sophisticated function. They're not just looking at bodies, they're attempting to maintain things like cultures and knowledge. It's not just about surviving, but about living. They don't seem to be base pragmatists, but at the same time, they're not foolish utopians. They're trying to steer us towards a world where individuals can flourish.
"Finally, I like how they're focused on their goal. We know that this gives them a strong possibility of success, which is important. I'd prefer a 70% chance at the reasonably good Pentheus solution and a 30% chance of Outsider annihilation to a 5% chance of the perfect outcome and a 95% chance of Outsider annihilation. What is it they say? 'the perfect is the enemy of the good.'
"As for what it offers me, given they succeed and assuming I'm not one of the 25-30% of people that gets eaten, it seems like a world worth living in, unlike the other three options with which I've been presented. And the Pentheus world that we've been shown merely assumes that Pentheus is left unhindered. Couldn't we facilitate an even better outcome if we assisted them? Not even necessarily by working with them, but running our own projects in parallel.
"Would I offer up my life to get this outcome? I hate to weasel out, but it depends. What are the alternatives? If the option is Pentheus or Outsider annihilation, then yes, what's a few more years of life worth if I know that humanity will come to an end? I'd have to hear more about one 'god' world and capped well world to know if it would be worth dying to save the world and myself from them. Once you're dead, you've lost everything you have and everything you could have had. I'm not a martyr or a hero by inclination. I am willing to risk my life for the outcome. I'm also willing to risk my soul...
"I agree that choice and sacrifice must be individual. I don't know much about this from an archetypal perspective, merely from a moral one. I do slightly disagree with you as this pertains to Pentheus. While the sacrifice of the 'undesirables' and lottery victims seems unwilling (the former more than the latter, who conceivably have agreed to the system), the latter sacrifices were shown to me to be entirely voluntary. I don't see any reason to assume the sacrifices are the result of coercion or misinformation.
"It certainly seems to me that the company does not sacrifice anything. However, this doesn't trouble me as it does you, because I don't value sacrifice as you do... and not to sound combative or condescending, but ritual and magic strike me as alien values, while morality is a human value... but then, I know next to nothing of ritual and magic.
"As to what the Pharaoh wants, I can only speculate. However, the Pentheus solution sounds 'exciting," what with the slave rebellions and all. Capped well, one god, and Outsider victory sound pretty boring in comparison. My guess, is that he'd favor Pentheus of those four. However, for all we know, he has some other outcome he's attempting to produce."
Redland glances at his notes.
"Hmmmm. As to 'how we can fix this,' I'd, of course, suggest that we attempt to maximize the Pentheus outcome. Make it as good as possible. Unless you have (or foresee being able to attain) a superior alternative outcome. Boris would probably suggest we could fix things by killing Dellman and his peers/superiors. I'd vastly prefer to wait until we know we can do better before we remove the only non-disastrous probable outcome.
"If I could ask a question, why do you dislike the Pentheus outcome? Is it solely the loss of life or is there something more?"
CARL
“I don’t dislike it.” Carl cocks his head to one side. “That’s not the right term. I don’t dislike the end result, that far future, but there’s something missing, something wrong in the getting there. Part of it’s what we know of the way it all turns out; part is their cool acceptance of such immense losses… part of it is this sense of what is needful that drives me, that’s part education and part intuition, the mystical part that I can’t really argue articulately about. Forgive me, I’m trying to answer your question. Like many really good ones, the answer isn’t easy to give.”
He stares at his hands, thinking aloud.
“When I step back from this, I have to ask if I shy from their road because I didn’t choose it myself. I don’t think I’m that shallow, but it had to be said …. I do know I mistrust their vision, even though we have a sense of where it goes, because I don’t know how *they* got there, and what hidden assumptions and agendas lie within the source of their ‘calculations.’ In this business, it is never safe to take another’s work without some suspicion, unless you’ve seen how it is put together and can duplicate, or at least follow, the process.
“I’ve been working for years toward something that apparently becomes the “one god” future. It’s a success, it’s safe, but it’s not what I – what we – had hoped for. Neither is Pentheus’, but theirs is, in some ways, closer. In some ways. In others … no. But seeing this, seeing these choices, makes me want to find that other road, the one less likely perhaps, but closer to the dream.
“Yes, perhaps working with Pentheus can get us there, or at least get us closer. I don’t know yet. My gut tells me that the things that need to be done to get there don’t have a lot to do with Pentheus per se, at least not yet. Right now we need to find a way to convince the King of Fate not to cap the well of Souls, and to stop him if he tries; I need, too, to speak with the Fae, they’re crucial allies and I don’t like this tale we hear of their feelings of betrayal….
“I’m wandering, aren’t I? I want to answer your question. No, it’s not just the loss of life. It’s not just the capitulation. It’s not just the sense that the members of Pentheus don’t plan to take the risks they put on others. It’s all of those, but something else too. Something I haven’t put my finger on just yet.”
Carl grins. It is not a nice smile.
“I do know that I’d feel better about Pentheus if each of them swore a solemn oath to follow their course to its end, knowing that each would die before their time in order to see it through. If they were willing to make that promise, knowing and believing that outcome … that would mean something.”
REDLAND
"I guess to add to the pile of things potentially wrong with the Pentheus solution, is this: How do we know it is a probable future? As far as I know, we have visions from Tibet, visions from the Dark Pharaoh, and Pentheus's explanations. So, we have a vision, a vision from a source no one trusts, and a projection using an unknown model from a self-interested party. This strikes me as a foundation of sand built on quicksand... or something like that.
"I do think you are right to be suspicious of your reasons for rejecting Pentheus. I, too, strongly prefer solutions I've generated. As an example, I agree that we should talk to the Fae, but I'd prefer to talk to Ms. Caine and the New York Fae, rather than Medea and Dr. Parkhurst. I think a large part of the reason for this, is that I 'discovered' them. They're 'mine.'
"At the same time, I think I think it is natural and proper to prefer your own vision. You know your motives are pure. You can't really ever know someone else's intentions. You want to save the world, maybe Pentheus doesn't. While a plan you implement may miss the target, at least you know what the target is.
"I also think you're right not to ignore your intuition. Intuition should eventually fold in the face of solid facts and reason. However, we don't necessarily have that. Until then, your intuition is really just the inarticulated sum of all the things you've learned in your lifetime. Your subconscious may be smarter than your conscious mind, in this instance.
"I would point out, that one way to get ahold of the Pentheus data and model would be to join them.
"Hmmm. Perhaps a way to 'defeat' Pentheus would be to somehow show them the outcome of their plan. As you say, if they knew what would happen, but went ahead with it anyway, you could feel some comfort as to the 'purity' of their motivation... obviously some dangers inherent in this idea.....
"Just a thought, and know that I'm not seriously advocating this, but if we wanted a Pentheus outcome, do we really need the KoF anymore? Disregarding Pentheus, do we need him now that we're tentatively abandoning the one god outcome? Killing him and destroying his evil minions would stop him from capping the well and doing anything else to harm the world. I only met him and his lackeys once, but they seemed to possess a callous disregard for life that, frankly, causes me to view them as an enemy.
"Anyhow, I agree that we need to stop him from capping the well. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help in this matter.
"Similarly, with the Fae, let me know if there's anything I can do."
CARL
“Oh dear. Wait a minute; whatever made you think I was abandoning the One God outcome? Or, more precisely, what made you think that a monolithic outcome is the only thing that requires the King of Fate? Or the King of Life, for that matter? No, I’m not writing Theo off, or myself for that matter. I’ll do what I can to defend the Well of Souls – but I’ve no desire to attack Theo or the Tower crew unless absolutely necessary.
"What we need to do is find out how they intend to cap the Well, and when….
"As for the Fae, we’ve no reason not to talk to Meridon Caine and the other local Folk. It’s just that Medea is their Queen. She makes the decisions, Caine doesn’t. She’s also a personal friend of mine. If *she* feels I’ve let her down somehow, then that’s between us, and nothing Caine could say or do changes that. Do you see?”
REDLAND
"Oh, there's not mistaking the fact that I'm still extremely ignorant as to what is going on. It's one of the things that makes me dangerous to everyone around me. I don't really understand why we need Kings and Principles and whatnot. Or, perhaps more accurately, I understand it the same way I understand Kantian philosophy. I understand it, I just don't 'get' it. This is assuredly one of the reasons I like Pentheus. I both understand and 'get' what they're doing. I see how what they're doing will work (or fail).
"That being said, I didn't and don't advocate killing the KoF. I don't want to hurt anybody. However, I don't see how the KoF is helping us. As far as I can tell, you and he are not working together in any fashion. You are often working at cross-purposes or at best, randomly. I understand that he in some way helps stabilize reality or something along those lines, but, and not to run this into the ground, I don't get it.
"It certainly seems like we can get to a reasonably good 'reality', without all of the mystical stuff, in the Pentheus solution. That's just mankind putting aside their differences and coming together to beat a vile foe. Of course, that outcome may very well have Kings and Principles doing all sorts of things...
"I certainly don't disagree with 'your' desire to talk to Medea. It makes complete sense from your perspective and, objectively, is probably the right move. I don't dispute that at all. Other than the fact that they're closer, my motives for wanting to talk to the New York Fae are probably not, objectively, valid.
"That being said, and again, probably due to my lack of knowledge (and ability) in mystical matters, I put much less stock in Medea being a 'Queen.' My meager understanding of the Fae is that they are very individualistic and that no one tells them what to do. It's also my experience that lackeys often have a different perspective than 'important' people.
"Anyhow, you have a personal relationship with Medea, she's a Queen, and she's a Principle. By all means, go talk to her."
CARL
Carl laughs. “And why don’t you go talk to Caine? What did you want to talk to her *about*?”
REDLAND
"Oh, I don't think she planned on being there. She was just going to act as an intermediary to set up a meeting for us with some local Fae. I figured I'd try to find out if and why they feel betrayed/abandoned. And if there was anything I/we could do to make them feel more welcome. I figure people like to be heard, even if there is little that you can do for them. If they are allies, at least make them feel like part of the team and let them know we're trying to assist them.
"If Ms. Caine is there, I might broach the legal matters as relates to Pentheus, in case we decided it was something we wanted to pursue in the future, she might know whether it is feasible or not. However, I believe she specializes in contract law, so it might not be her cup of tea... though at the very least, she presumably passed the bar in this country, that is, I'd guess so."
CARL
“Did she offer you a price? I’ve not known Meridon Caine to do anything for free….”
REDLAND
"Well, I am a pretty great guy. I mean, who wouldn't want to help me out?
"My incredible good looks probably didn't hurt, either....
"Well, that, or since all of her clients are Fae, maybe she thinks we can help them out and that will be good for her.
"She did seem like a nice lady, too. She took the time to explain a lot of things to me even though she barely knew who I was. Gave me some leads on contacting the Elders, gratis. I consider her one of the friendliest people I've encountered since the Faeroes. I mean, not Boris friendly, but that's setting the bar pretty high..."
CARL
Laughter. “True, true! Boris is hard to beat for sheer warmth, I admit.” Still chuckling, Carl stretches a bit, relaxing.
“Meridon Caine always takes her cut; but she has for many years been a lynchpin of the Nightsider community, and now that of the Fae. I really do believe that she does what she does for the good of all her people, and that makes her one of the good guys in my book.
“And you’re right about meeting the New York folk, if there is time. I don’t want to step on any toes though; if things really are strained, I wouldn’t want to make overtures if it would seem that we were trying to make an end run around Medea. Hmm – maybe me Caine can help with that too.
“Care to set up a meeting?”
REDLAND
"Hey, excellent. As it happens, Ms. Caine has already set up a standing meeting for us. All we have to do is give her the word. I told her that I didn't know if you or anyone else would want to meet with them (so they wouldn't be offended if the meeting didn't come off), but that I'd talk to you and see if you were amenable. The Fae have already replied and indicated that whenever we want to meet, they'd be ready. I would imagine that I could probably contact Ms. Caine tonight and we could have the meeting tomorrow. If you wanted to talk to her about not unintentionally offending anyone, I could ask her to come as well, in case she wasn't planning on attending."
CARL
“You could probably contact Miss Caine right now; she keeps daytime office hours. We could meet the others tonight that way; if I do indeed need to catch that train to California, the extra day is valuable. Why don’t you call her office? And if by chance she happens to have a telephone number where I might reach Medea, it just might lessen the urgency of the trip west.”
REDLAND
"Sure thing. I'll see what I can do."
[Redland goes to call Ms. Caine]
