Session 190
Chancel_Amyra
Chapter 25
[INFO] Now logging to [file:///C:/Users/Angelo/AppData/Roaming/Mozilla/Firefox/Profiles/d34g2inc.default/chatzilla/logs/irc2.magicstar.net/channels/%23nobilis.2010-12-17.log].
[Random_Nerd] So, yeah.
[Random_Nerd] Sorry about being not up to GMing right now,
[Random_Nerd] I had wanted to have a game this week, but I didn't really see this coming.
[Verithe] It's understandable.
[Angelo] no problem into skipping this week
[Angelo] ah, I can't find the log for 11/19/2010 Can someone send me a copy?
[Lazarus] Don't know if I have a log
[Lazarus] Haven't really been able to figure out the options for this app, sadly
[Random_Nerd] I should have that log
[Angelo] super
[BethE] Aspect 4? http://senorgif.memebase.com/2010/12/15/funny-gifs-mind-breaker-martial-arts-master/
[Random_Nerd] So, before I go, any thoughts on the game? The current pace going okay, or should I turn the dial a few more clicks towards Apocalypse?
[Lazarus] Oh yeah, I am also waiting for that.
[Verithe] I like the current pace.
[BethE] I'm okay with it.
[Angelo] me too
[Random_Nerd] Because, there's stuff I have ready, but I'm letting it percolate for a while. There's a King coming, and three more behind him.
[Lazarus] Well, more like I have been looking forward to finding out what is going to happen, more than wanting it to
[Lazarus] I feel like I almost know how the cosmology behaves, but it still feels shaky. I have a feeling that our characters should be solid on that before the big event
[Random_Nerd] What about the cosmology?
[Lazarus] The interaction between Creation and Outside, and what makes Creation Creation instead of Outside, and stuff like that. What makes up an Excrucian
[Random_Nerd] Well, hmm.
[Angelo] the external "dreams/shadows/pastlives" of a wildlord's noble
[Random_Nerd] The fourth one seems like a... a wrong question. Different things make up the different types of Excrucian.
[Random_Nerd] A mimic is an Imperator in all but loyalty, for instance.
[Lazarus] That is kind of what I figured, but a little bit in a metaphysical sense instead of physical sense.
[Random_Nerd] Strategists... there's actually a fair bit in the 2e book on what makes a strategist a strategist.
[Random_Nerd] They have to /do something/ to themselves to give them the regular suite of miraculous powers. Weave something from Outside into themselves.
[Random_Nerd] That's a bit part of why they're so messed up.
[Random_Nerd] Or look at the bit on them in the 3e book.
[Random_Nerd] Strategists, every one of them, are /dying/.
[Random_Nerd] They have to be, to be Strategists.
[Lazarus] I guess the question is rather, why are they Excrucians.
[Random_Nerd] They're constantly in a state of slowly fading into and out of existence...
[Random_Nerd] That, you know.
[Random_Nerd] They're Excrucians because they're at war with Creation, and trying to take its estates.
[Random_Nerd] That's what Excrucian /means/.
[Random_Nerd] It's a political description, not a metaphysical one.
[Lazarus] Why are they Excrucians rather than Imperators, rather
[Random_Nerd] Some are both.
[Random_Nerd] Mimics.
[Lazarus] Granted,
[Random_Nerd] And there's things of comparable power, both inside and outside Creation, that are /neither/.
[Random_Nerd] Another interesting point... Nobles are more like Excrucians than they are like Imperators.
[Random_Nerd] Imperators, they have a bit in the way of Noble miracles, but it's not what they're good at.
[Lazarus] I guess I basically see Excrucians as akin to Imperators, but aren't mostly due to circumstance. Ties into the Wildlords thing
[Random_Nerd] Mostly, they do Imperial miracles.
[Random_Nerd] Excrucians, on the other hand, are more like big Nobles, in terms of what they can do.
[Lazarus] Ties into the why are there no more new Wildlords question
[Random_Nerd] Or, there's another question related to that.
[Random_Nerd] There were no Wildlords /before/ a certain time.
[Random_Nerd] Then for a while, they showed up. Then they stopped again.
[Lazarus] Which is interesting partly because of the lack of time outside
[Random_Nerd] True.
[Random_Nerd] The lack of time says something.
[Random_Nerd] Either it was something that was partly related to Creation...
[Random_Nerd] Or else all the Wildlords that came in were /aiming/ for a particular part of Creation's timeline, regardless of where they were from.
[Lazarus] There is no time outside, so why does there seem to be a similar continuity? Brian's idea is that the interface causes causality
[Random_Nerd] But the fact that it's time-linked says something.
[BethE] That is...interesting.
[Random_Nerd] Similar continuity?
[Random_Nerd] Excrucian shards and Excrucians in /Creation/ have that, certainly. But they're within time.
[Lazarus] Um, whenever we talk to outside, it seems to be happening now and more or less wrt us
[Random_Nerd] How can you tell that, though?
[Random_Nerd] The conversations that come /through/ are ordered in time, yes.
[Random_Nerd] But they would have to be, by necessity.
[Random_Nerd] They could not come through into Creation without going somewhere in time.
[Random_Nerd] And it has to be a time that there's an opening.
[Lazarus] Hence the idea that the interface between here and there causes causality
[Random_Nerd] But I don't think you have evidence that the causality exists on the other end.
[Lazarus] We observe it, so it happens when we observe it
[BethE] Power of Heisenburg?
[Random_Nerd] In certain respects, causality of Creation affects the Outside.
[Random_Nerd] Like, say Creation does something that affects all of Outside, somehow.
[Random_Nerd] That establishes a dividing line in the Outside.
[Random_Nerd] There's the part that's affected, that responds and reacts to it.
[Random_Nerd] And there's a part that doesn't, that's just like it was before.
[Random_Nerd] If anything comes into creation that knows about what was done, it'll be from the part that's affected.
[Random_Nerd] And it will only be able to get into a part of Creation's timeline after whatever it is was done.
[Random_Nerd] Because of /Creation's/ rules, that time goes in order.
[Random_Nerd] Does that make sense?
[Lazarus] Yep, and pretty much what I thought
[Random_Nerd] The "before" and "after", out there, are mote different categories, than being sequential.
[Random_Nerd] But when they come into Creation, Creation has rules.
[Random_Nerd] And part of what the Wall does is enforce those rules.
[BethE] Hmm...
[Random_Nerd] Now, this is less true of the Spirit World.
[Lazarus] I still like the grey ooze theory of outside
[Random_Nerd] There, time works a lot more like it does Outside.
[Random_Nerd] The Second Age is a place you can /go/.
[Random_Nerd] Even the Mythic, to some degree, works this way. The deep mythic, at least.
[BethE] (Oh, btw, I think James has three fathers.)
[Random_Nerd] Oh?
[Random_Nerd] Tell me who they are?
[Random_Nerd] And which one do you think is the one that someone died to turn into?
[Lazarus] I missed out on the return of James storyline, so don't have enough information to start answering
[BethE] Kudzu, the man who gave his soul to the gargoyle and the gargoyle.
[Random_Nerd] Well, that's mainly relevant because it's why the Outside knows who James is.
[Random_Nerd] At least, those parts of it that do.
[BethE] The man who gave his soul died, but I think it means more what part of Kudzu died in order to create him/Urbanization across the Wall.
[Random_Nerd] The "James' Father" thing does not depend on things you don't know, Laz.
[Lazarus] Ok. Btw, RN, how right or wrong am I with the idea that Wild Nobles have fetches?
[Random_Nerd] Oh...
[Random_Nerd] Oh, man.
[Random_Nerd] That's really close.
[Verithe] ._.
[Lazarus] Like I said, I feel I have a squishy handle on it :p. It has always felt like the Wildlords are pretty close to everything from outside.
[Lazarus] Having it kind of mirror or shadow Creation would make some sense.
[Lazarus] Outside is anti-creation (sorta by definition) so why would we exist in both places?
[Lazarus] Or ... Is it our absence which has an impact on outside?
[Random_Nerd] Consider this issue.
[Random_Nerd] How much about how the Fetch-creation process is intrinsic to that relationship, and how much to the fact that one end is in Creation and one end is Outside.
[Random_Nerd] Because, I mean... okay. Shadows sets out to get a fetch.
[Random_Nerd] From the perspective of Creation, Shadows has a fetch only afterwards, the relationships starts at a particular moment in time.
[Random_Nerd] From the perspective of Outside, that fetch, if he's ever going to get one, has /always/ existed.
[Random_Nerd] But how would that work if it was reversed, if something from Outside was trying to build a fetch in Creation]?
[Lazarus] It necessarily has to pick a time for it to start existing, but really, that doesn't matter much.
[Lazarus] It could be any time
[Random_Nerd] But what would it look like?
[BethE] It would be like you both don't and do have a fetch because all time is the same for you?
[Lazarus] It would look like you have a fetch or shadow outside.
[Random_Nerd] And to the Outsider, that relationship will have always existed.
[BethE] The fetch would only show up at the specific time that they were allowed across?
[Random_Nerd] Yeah.
[Random_Nerd] They'd be allowed across at any time in Creation... unless the creation of the fetch was a response to something that happened in Creation.
[Lazarus] Might even manifest as the creation-being attempting to create a fetch
[Random_Nerd] Can't.
[Verithe] Can't?
[Random_Nerd] There can't have been a creation-being prior to the creation.
[BethE] What if...the fall resonated outside of Creation?
[Lazarus] When was the wild lord invasion?
[Random_Nerd] Mid to late second age.
[Lazarus] First was ideal, second was the fall, and third the war?
[Random_Nerd] Correct.
[Random_Nerd] The third began with the beginning of the War.
[Lazarus] That definitely had an effect on outside
--]| Knockwood (~chatzilla@MagicStar-BF74FBDE.dhcp.reno.nv.charter.com) has joined #nobilis
[Knockwood] (Hi all)
[Lazarus] Hey kwd. Kibitz session today
[Angelo] hi knock
[Knockwood] ah, OK
[Random_Nerd] Sprained wrist, can't type fast.
[Lazarus] And apparently I have got close but not quite at the meaning of life, the universe, and everything
[Knockwood] had kind of a weird week too. Still have a head cold.
[Lazarus] Other than forty two, of course
[Knockwood] What have you got so far?
[BethE] Well, I'm not feeling good. :) You guys fill in Knock and send me a log so I don't have to pry stuff out of RN. *HUG*
[Random_Nerd] Let's see.
[Random_Nerd] "Wildlords have fetches" is really close to something big.
[BethE] Excrucians and Wildlords are Outside's answer/reaction to the Fall.
[Knockwood] you too Beth?
[BethE] Oh, I'm just really worn out. :) And I'm usually quite during the brainstorming sessions. ^^
[Random_Nerd] "When events related to Outside connect only to parts of Creation after a certain point, that means they are a reaction to something in Creation."
[BethE] Night, all! *HUGS*
|[-- BethE has left irc2.magicstar.net (Disintegrated: All shall love me and despair?)
[Knockwood] g'night Beth
[Random_Nerd] "A lot of how the fetchmaking process works is based on the fact that one party is in time, and one is not. It would look differently, if the Summoner were Outside and the fetch were in Creation."
[Verithe] ...
[Knockwood] so Outside is the future of Creation, once we've ditched this whole linear time thing?
[Lazarus] I wonder if Wildlords are partly outside, and their nobles thus too?
[Verithe] So...would the fetches of related Wild Nobles also be related?
[Random_Nerd] They aren't partly Outside, though.
[Knockwood] that may explain the starry eyes
[Random_Nerd] Wildlords are stuck inside Creation.
[Knockwood] oops, misread
[Lazarus] I should probably go. Have another load of dishes, and I should sleep - stats exam tomorrow, kwd. Should have rou
[Lazarus] Enough time to go over the formulae to remember them enough for the test
[Knockwood] oh, those are fun
[Verithe] Take care, Laz.
[Knockwood] good luck
[Angelo] bye Laz
[Lazarus] Yeah, no formula sheet. Sigh.
[Lazarus] Night
|[-- Lazarus has left irc2.magicstar.net (Disintegrated: Lazarus)
[Random_Nerd] Anyone else have any theorizing to do, before I head offline?
[Knockwood] what else did you come up with without me?
[Random_Nerd] I gave you most of the highlights...
[Random_Nerd] Oh,. and Beth had theories on three people who might in a sense be "James' Father"
[Random_Nerd] Kudzu, last guy who died in the Enchanceling, the gargoyle.
[Knockwood] Well, if it's #2 or #3 the guy from Outside wouldn't have reason to say Hello.
[Random_Nerd] True. The person Outside spoke as if "the person who died and became James' father" was /there/.
[Knockwood] It's Kudzu. He's there and here at the same time.
[Verithe] Maybe that's how Kudzu's Chancel-creation process worked?
[Random_Nerd] You guys know that he used the standard 100-deaths ritual.
[Random_Nerd] Well, a question there is, why didn't the guy just say "James' father"?
[Random_Nerd] Is "James' father" the same person as "the person who died and became James' father"?
[Knockwood] Creation is the afterlife for them?
[Verithe] That was my theory...
[Random_Nerd] The evidence would suggest that that's only /sometimes/ true.
[Random_Nerd] Most imperators show no signs of any connection to the Outside in their origins.
[Random_Nerd] Wildlords are different in that regard, and there aren’t that many of them.
[Knockwood] Wildlords are Outsider bodhisattvas?
[Random_Nerd] Let's look at it this way.
[Random_Nerd] What's the big question you're trying to answer?
[Knockwood] hm...
[Knockwood] good question. There are so many.
[Random_Nerd] I suspect that it's "Okay. We know the facts of how Wildlords appeared. They came from Outside. They showed up during a particular period in Creation's history, a while before the War began. There is some evidence that at least one of them was the result of something Outside dying."
[Random_Nerd] "What do we know about that would cause this result?"
[Knockwood] I'm torn between the nature of Outside and the nature of the War
[Verithe] The Fall?
[Random_Nerd] Hmm. Why would the Fall have this particular result?
[Knockwood] Well, things didn't _die_ during the Fall. They were defeated, but then they wound up alive in hell.
[Random_Nerd] Couple layers to the Fall, of course.
[Random_Nerd] Angelic fall. Humanity. Dionyl. Phoenix family died. Probably others.
[Knockwood] Wildlords were meant to be deep-cover agents?
[Random_Nerd] Well, we already know what the Outside's deep-cover agents look like.
[Angelo] mimic
[Random_Nerd] Yep.
[Random_Nerd] Much less obvious than Wildlords.
[Knockwood] Wildlords were meant to be intermediaries?
[Random_Nerd] Well, if they were, it didn't work.
[Random_Nerd] Not long after they showed up, the War started.
[Random_Nerd] Well, hundreds of years.
[Random_Nerd] But as the ages go? Not long.
[Verithe] Or Wildlords were a faction...like Light/Dark or Slintering/Domination
[Knockwood] Wildlords were like the Pilgrims?
[Knockwood] Angelo: the Pilgrims who came to America ~1620 were escaping religious persecution in England.
[Angelo] doh, go figure, I related pilgrim to the pilgrim bears
[Random_Nerd] That's it! The wildlords are BEARS!
[Knockwood] you mean Peregrine?
[Random_Nerd] It all makes sense now!
- Random_Nerd dribbles.
[Random_Nerd] Eh, the two words are synonyms.
[Verithe] But Excrucians are the Wildlords' opposing faction.'
- Angelo slap RN with a trout
[Knockwood] It's all political?
[Verithe] My trout! D:
[Random_Nerd] Well, that's what we were talking about earlier.
[Random_Nerd] "Excrucian" seems to be a political designation.
[Angelo] pilgrims - peregrine... too near as words from my pov
[Random_Nerd] It means those things that intend to take Creation's estates.
- Angelo give the trout to V.
[Random_Nerd] (I think the two words do have a shared root, actually.)
- Verithe feeds the trout to Kite.
[Random_Nerd] Like, Mimics have probably never even /been/ outside.
[Knockwood] so were Wildlords intending to fight for our Estates or negotiate for them?
[Angelo] beware V. have been touch contaminate by HG-ite!
[Random_Nerd] And Warmains and Strategists are less like each other than Warmains are like, say, Angels.
[Knockwood] They're each different factions of Outsider?
[Verithe] Perhaps, it was more an issue of what to do with Creation. Put themselves in it or take Stuff out. Wildlords chose to live in it.
[Verithe] Or maybe preserve it.
[Knockwood] It may be that this is analogous to the current debate over the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge and the oil underneath it
[Random_Nerd] One impression you guys have gotten in your contacts with Outside is that it's... empty. Impoverished.
[Knockwood] then it's analogous to the "debate" over the Middle East and the oil underneath it
[Random_Nerd] Rich in resources, but poor in economic and military development?
[Verithe] So, this may be taking the imagery a bit too far...
[Knockwood] more like they have all the oil and everyone else wants and needs it. (Not literally true, but that's the perception)
[Verithe] But if the worlds on the Ash are its fruit, would that make those worlds' Imperators (True Gods, Lightlords, Darklords, etc.) the seeds for other Creations?
[Random_Nerd] And, of course, the Excrucians didn't /always/ come to take by force. At least once, they demanded a bribe in exchange for staying away for a while.
[Random_Nerd] Colbrand. "The quality of spirit that makes death impossible."
[Knockwood] Would us goofy PCs have a shot at determining the full story of that trade?
[Random_Nerd] Hmm!
[Random_Nerd] It'd take some digging.
[Random_Nerd] But you do have some angelic contacts.
[Random_Nerd] I'd say that's a good idea for a Project.
[Knockwood] Angelic? The angels have links to Cneph?
[Random_Nerd] Some of them think they do, at least.
[Random_Nerd] But the doorkeeper in that story was an Angel, wasn't it?
[Verithe] From what I recall, yes.
[Knockwood] Actually, the 3 of us can check out mindmaps and see about what plan would help each of us...
[Random_Nerd] Let's see...
[Knockwood] Verithe, did you put together a plan for Kite?
[Random_Nerd] Well, he has his cult thing...
[Verithe] He has his cult thing which is intended to be headed toward making Vulcan less of a True God and more of a Generic Imperator intrinsic to all Creation.
[Verithe] But not much else...
[Knockwood] hm. Careful, he might step on Eli's toes (using the In Nomine cosmos)
[Verithe] He'd be more likely to ask an Angel what makes them an Angel than about Colbrand.
[Random_Nerd] Ah, here, page 196.
[Random_Nerd] And page 210 with the explanation.
[Random_Nerd] It doesn't specify if the bestower is angelic or not.
[Random_Nerd] But I'd still start with the angels.
[Random_Nerd] They know all the oldest stories.
[Random_Nerd] And many of them were actually around back then.
[Knockwood] oh, GWB or new?
[Angelo] night guys.. I'm going to curl under the piumone
[Random_Nerd] GWB references, those.
[Verithe] Take care, Angelo
[Angelo] piumone=duvewt
[Knockwood] g'night Angelo
[Random_Nerd] I think I'll head out, too.
[Knockwood] g'night to you too RN
[Verithe] Take care, then. I hope your wrist feels better.
[Random_Nerd] Next week I should have this stupid splint off, so I’ll be up to running the game.
[Knockwood] hopefully I'll be up to showing up and playing
[Random_Nerd] I hope so.
[Random_Nerd] See you guys then.
|[-- Random_Nerd has left irc2.magicstar.net (Disintegrated: )
[Verithe] Take care, Knock!
|[-- Verithe has left irc2.magicstar.net (Disintegrated: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
[Knockwood] Cya Angelo
Chancel_Amyra
Chapter 25
