Editing FederalSpace:Peoples (section)

== Commentary: A Galaxy Without Poverty? ==

'''Pteryx:''' Concerning Trekish optimism, there are two key things to keep in mind:

1) Replicator technology is assumed to mean the end of poverty, and
2) Humanity as a whole is assumed to have "grown up".

Mess with #2 too much and you start to lose the optimism, but #1 certainly has wiggle room. Replicators have to be powered by something, leaving energy as the only truly scarce resource left. There are certainly renewable varieties, but those aren't portable across space, while the sorts of energies we usually see featured in Trek are -- yet the scarcity of *ahem* antideuterium and dilithium crystals somehow doesn't result in the remnants of an economy, nor does the continued demand for hand-crafted goods (primarily seen in food in the shows).

Thus, what I find myself seeing is this: The majority of people stick to planets, where solar and wind energy and such aren't going to go away and thus you have endless replicator energy for those willing to settle for replicated things -- which in the end is no real hardship, just a luxury-free middle-class-esque lifestyle rather than what we'd call "poor". Then you have the likes of starships, which must rely on scarcer yet portable resources, and the people willing to deal with such a "less civilized" mode of living in order to bring the worlds things that can never be replicated -- knowledge, peace, friendship.</small>

'''Shadowjack:''' This is trending in the right direction, though I've been very hesitant to permit actual "post-scarcity" semi-luxury. "I needed a job" is a very raw and real motivation, but on the other hand I don't think a "friendly" government like the Feds would permit people to starve for lack of money if it was at all feasible. (And I suspect the other governments would follow suit, if for no reason other than practicality—it's cheaper to prevent food riots in the first place than to deal with the aftermath.)

I agree that invoking "unbelievium" fuels just shifts things around rather than eliminating the issues. I'm taking the direction of, for example, ''Transhuman Space'', where high prosperity is possible through advanced but conventional means. However, this is a good start of the theme: Pleasant but dull core worlds, less pleasant but more interesting frontier, and starships with limited but portable resources.

'''Lord Draqo:''' Quibble - the key to getting away from scarcity thinking is the idea that with sufficient energy anything is possible, and once you begin working with total conversion of matter (Matter/anti-Matter), you have the energy to accomplish just about anything. However this does not mean the end of an economy, you just have to recognize "money" as a symbol for energy expended to achieve/acquire a resource. People still need to expend energy (work) in order to get stuff. You just don't worry about folding green stuff in your pocket any more.

'''Shadowjack:''' That sparks an idea, to tie money directly to energy expenditure; it seems most likely to me for small, closed systems like space habitats, where every activity can be easily metered, but I could see a larger society using it, too, so long as it was well-networked.

''Pilgrim:''' Not bad. You're going to want to set up your antimatter factories somewhere though. You'd probably want them near a sun (intense energy) and probably above the plane of the ecliptic (in case things go seriously wrong). You ''might'' be able to transport antimatter in a series of relays, but I wouldn't want to be within a light second of the relay stations. On the plus side, you have a reason for space travel and convoys. Related, if you're willing to take the risk, and put up with the planetary blight, you could build a ring around the world (stolen from ''Dread Empire's Fall'') that serves as gigantic particle accelerator for mass production of antimatter. Solar powered, conveniently located and hopefully failsafed to a fare thee well.

'''Shadowjack:''' Nice. 

I understand realistically big rings are unstable, gravitically, but there's no reason we can't build a few Halo-style rings. 

'''Deacon Blues:'''
…Even presuming the ability to punch buttons in a computer and get anything you want, the following resources will still be limited:

(1) Time. …Which needs get prioritized? Is there a "queue" of demands that the ship's computer has to process? Will my request for a gin and tonic get pushed off for a few minutes if engineering is demanding some advanced widgets?

['''Shadowjack:''' Yes. Definitely.]

(2) Creativity. Everyone can make all the clothes they need in a replicator. But how do you tell the replicator what clothes to make? Unless everyone's wearing the same uniform, someone has to come up with new fashion templates. Unless everyone's eating the same swill, someone has to come up with new recipes. Etc.

['''Shadowjack:''' Very, very true. The human element remains important: those who create, or even those who select plans, have important skill.]

(3) Information. …How much of anything do you need? Does the ship need more Somethingium ingots or more ounces of Thatstuffinite? Are people more tired of the same bland outfits or the same bland food? This is the kind of information that prices would (theoretically) solve in a scarce-resource economy: more demanded stuff becomes more expensive until supply increases to catch up. However, even with the unlimited replicator, you might still find yourself with a surplus of one thing and a serious shortage of another - unless someone's tracking what you need.

['''Shadowjack:''' The classic problem of a communist economy, but one that the right combination of computers and compromises might make a reasonable approximation of a solution. (Theme of this setting: there are ''always'' gaps.)]

(4) Power Source. I know next to nothing about Star Trek, but I presume that the replicator cannot generate whatever powers it. Otherwise, you have a perpetual motion machine, and as goofy as Trek is I don't think they went that far. So the power source for the replicator is now the most precious resource in the galaxy. That ship of yours has phasers, right?

['''Shadowjack:''' A vicious, but appropriate, thought to end upon. War's not going away, but it's fortunately less common and less dangerous. Fortunately, my replicators can't do this. They ''can'', of course, manufacture gasoline or whatever from the necessary hydrocarbons, and there is antimatter manufacturing for high-yield applications. But most energy itself comes from renewables and fusion.]


'''A Letter From Prague:''' Yeah. Just because the Federation is a post-monetary economy doesn't mean it's a post-economics economy...

'''Shadowjack:''' That triggers an interesting thought… While technically there's ''some'' medium of exchange, it's true that the individuals in some of these societies may not even know about it!

I'm tempted to call them "Work Units" and make all the Prisoner fans twitch.  "Non-alcoholic vodka, 21 work units!"

'''Pilgrim:''' This might be getting away from the core concept, but have you considered agalmics? Its the guts of Manfred Macx's business in ''Accelerando'' and the basic idea is that Manfred is a super creative and synthetist. His fee for his work are the products and services of those he helps, resulting in all but unlimited air travel, some fiendish computer hardware, etc., etc.

'''Shadowjack:''' I'll have to look that up; ''Accelerando'' has been on the round-to-it list for a while.


'''Shadowjack:''' In the Federated Worlds, lots of dilettante artists and perpetual college students, working just enough to buy whatever new clothing or artwork or vacation they want, and then slacking off again. Not exactly the ''purposeful'' utopia of many people's dreams, but on the other hand, it's far better than starving. "There are always those who want to go down to Wall Street"—those people are the movers and shakers of society.


'''Shadowjack:''' I'm not sure I ''want'' a post-scarcity economy. :D Just a "high-industrial" one, i.e. there's ''more'' stuff than now, but I'm not sure I want the different society.

Part of the reason for this is: Trek often functions best as analogy for and social commentary upon our own times. That's why the crews in the series tend to be like "a bunch of Americans in space", because most of the audience ''is'' a bunch of Americans. Myself included. :D

I filed my taxes recently, and I'm wondering if I will actually get my refund from the state, because California is in financial crisis. ''That's a plot thread right there,'' I mean, that's powerful stuff, which people can relate to! But we can't do it in Trek-as-presented, because they don't ever worry about money. 

Unless we go to another planet, and go all White Man's Burden on them. "You primitives still use money? Here, let us help you. We can solve this together." "Whattaya mean 'we', Earth Man? FEDDIE GO HOME!" *burns Federation flag*

So I kind of want to dial things back, and avoid actual post-scarcity. There's still business and working for a living in the Federation, it's just ''easier'' and more comfortable than now, is all.