Difference between revisions of "Talk:Scratch"

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(stuff to do when delayed)
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==movement abilities should be more useful when escaping==
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==Toughness is Overpowered==
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As the Scratch system has evolved, hit points have gradually increased relative to the damage of attack abilities, so everybody wants to be a tank because hit points guarantee you will last longer.
  
Movement abilities are not as useful as they should be when escaping.
+
Currently our official average hit points are about right (3 for an unarmored average person, 4 or 5 for a "squishy" PC, 6 or more for a tank) and the power of our attack abilities is about right (some people say they are too powerful, some say they have been nerfed, so that suggests we have hit the sweet spot.)
Only hold and getting incapacitated can prevent you from escaping.
 
The movement ability bonus to agility does not help you avoid holds, and you lose the bonus once you are held. Ideas for making movement abilities more useful while escaping:
 
  
*add movement abilities to strength when you evade
+
So how do we tweak the incentives so that squishy characters will be happy with 4 or 5 hit points, but tanks will still want to have lots of hit points?
*hold against an evading character has to roll higher than both agility and strength
 
*hold always has to roll higher than both agility and strength
 
  
==describing actions that can only be used once per battle==
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We already have the engage action, which helps tanks absorb damage by drawing aggro. In playtesting, healers are more likely to be targeted by holds than high-damage attacks, so wrestling (to increase strength) might actually be better for healers than lots of toughness. Healers and long-range attackers can also take cover.
  
How should we describe actions like intimidate and surprise that can be used once per battle?
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====Bug to Feature====
  
words describing the action:
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Context could play a big part here, because this problem is likely to be fixed by the skill system intended for Squawk 2nd Ed.  TDW might be the last game in the foreseeable future that uses Scratch without skills.  ''In TDW, there is a really good narrative to why PCs should gain toughness more often than other abilities'', which the following text could be added to TDW to explain:
 +
:Essence often warps Sorcerers into more powerful forms, increasing their size, natural armor, or other physical alterations that make them more physically resilient.  Therefore, it is appropriate for Sorcerers to use essence to gain Toughness more often than other abilities.
 +
If we go with this option, this Toughness balance issue can be tabled until we are using skills in Scratch.
  
*_____ is a "prepared" action - we were using this in the skill system. It's meaning is not obvious.
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====Real Solution====
*_____ is a "singular" action - multiple meanings (alone and unusual)
 
*_____ is an "unrepeatable" action
 
*_____ is an "uncommon" action
 
*_____ is a "unique" action
 
*_____ is an "infrequent" action
 
  
words describing the battle:
+
What if we had a rule for all injured or incapacitated characters (including minions) that between encounters they only heal to barely-healthy, unless they can make a detection, craftsmanship or healing roll to regenerate themselves to full HP?
  
*_____ can be used once per "battle".
+
:This would decrease the guarantee that hit points make you last longer, which would be good.
*_____ can be used once per "combat".
 
*_____ can be used once per "encounter".
 
  
Words describing the action are more terse, but every term we define like that makes the system a little more difficult to understand, and moves words from the "natural language you can use any way you want" to "technical terms that refer to specific game mechanics."
+
:Can you use your roll to heal an ally instead of yourself?
  
My favorite of all the above is "encounter" because there are fewer situations where a player would want to use it to mean something other than the technical meaning. Worst case scenario: "I'm going to use intimidate every time we fight one of these enemies in our next encounter with the horde." Here the player is using "encounter" to mean an event which contains multiple battles where you can use the intimidate action once per battle. But the words "battle" and "combat" can be misused in the same way. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 16:30, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
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::"Yes" makes more narrative sense IMHO. --[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 10:17, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
  
==stuff to do when delayed==
+
:This should be the rule for a "normal" encounter cycle. Depending on the game this could mean a short rest, a month or a year of rehabilitation. Within each game there may be some back-to-back encounters without the opportunity to heal, and there may be longer breaks or full healing services at some points in a long campaign (i.e. "return to town".)
  
Allowing delayed and incapacitated characters to attempt simple actions can make the game more fun for players whose characters are not otherwise able to do anything.
+
:The normal encounter cycle should also be the cycle for changing craftsmanship bonuses.
  
Things that already happen on your turn while you are delayed:
+
:You should not be able to respec minions in the normal encounter cycle. You need a longer break ("return to town") to replace, modify or retrain your minions.
  
*The -2 agility from engage ends - sweet!
+
==more realistic healing options==
*The +2 agility from take cover ends - d'oh!
 
 
 
Things we might add to the system:
 
 
 
*hold the character who is holding you
 
*take cover when you are delayed by your own shooting or blasting attack (or maybe you can only STAY in cover if you did it before shooting or blasting.)
 
*grid movement when you are delayed by your own moves
 
*optional death rules while incapacitated (these rules don't exist yet)
 
 
 
:What if delayed characters could still do bonus actions?--[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 04:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
::the only bonus actions now are engage and take cover. Engaging without attacking is useless. Taking cover is already mentioned above.--[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 16:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
==imbalance between abilities==
 
 
 
Here's how I estimate the approximate value of each ability. This scale is adjusted so that 1 level of an attack ability is worth 1. It's not exactly the same as the CP scale.
 
 
 
TOUGHNESS (more valuable at low levels, normal human toughness is 3)
 
-15  1 toughness
 
  -5  2 toughness
 
  0  3 toughness
 
  3  4 toughness
 
  5  5 toughness
 
  7  6 toughness
 
  9  7 toughness
 
  11  8 toughness
 
  12  9 toughness
 
  13 10 toughness
 
ABILITIES (in addition to the value of each level)
 
  -5  no attack ability
 
  5  flying + blasting or shooting ability
 
  5  heal (healing ability)
 
  3  each command ability minion
 
  2  intimidate (command ability)
 
  2  surprise (stealth or detection ability)
 
LEVELS
 
  1  each level of attack ability, stealth, command or craftsmanship
 
  ½  each level of quickness, acrobatics, flying or detection
 
  ¼  each level of swimming or healing
 
 
 
*Toughness is so valuable because none of the other abilities are useful when you are incapacitated, and attack abilities are less useful when you are injured. Toughness is especially valuable at low levels when you have a high risk of getting injured or incapacitated by each attack.
 
*Most characters have an attack ability, so I listed not having an attack ability as a -5. If you do not have an attack ability, you basically have half as many attacks or half as much attack power when you are healthy.
 
*With flying and long rang attacks you can avoid close range attacks.
 
*Having 1 level of healing ability gives you a 60% chance to heal allies. Each additional level increases the chance of success by 5% or in other words by about 1/12 of the value of 1 level of healing ability.
 
*If you have 2 minions, you can do 3 command attacks (each minion plus intimidate) on your first turn (in addition to a normal action.) So having command and two minions is about as valuable as 8 attack ability levels.
 
*Stealth is the most popular ability that gives agility because players feel like the big up-front initiative bonus is very useful.
 
*Quickness, acrobatics and flying ability levels are less valuable than attack ability levels because they only increase your agility, evade and catch bonuses. Agility does not protect you against all attacks, evade is only used in tight spots, and catch is a weak alternative to hold.
 
*Detection has that popular initiative bonus, but intelligence is the least used defense.
 
::I think all attacks vs. intelligence should be bonus actions.  (They may now be, I am not sure.)--[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 04:58, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Why? (They are not - distract is not a bonus action.)
 
*While you are in the water, swimming levels are the most useful (except for low levels of toughness and command) because they can contribute to both (close range) attack and (agility) defense. Unfortunately, swimming is not useful in most battles.
 
 
 
==strong swimmers==
 
 
 
Swimming should give you strength.
 
 
 
Pro:
 
 
 
*Swimming is by far the least useful ability.
 
*Even small human swimmers are pretty strong.
 
:IMHO this is a weak narrative.  The way I would put it is "swimming is endurance oriented, and so is grappling, which is why it gives you a strength bonus."
 
::swimming makes you slippery, which is why it is anti-grappling :-) Seriously though human swimming does take both strength and endurance, but human walking and running takes even more strength and endurance (as land animals we are just more optimized for moving on the ground than in water.) --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 15:05, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
Con:
 
 
 
*Some small swimming creatures are not strong.
 
:But Swimming ability gives a significant combat bonus, so that as an ability it doesn't really work for small fast swimmers anyhow. --[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 04:50, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
::I see no reason a small creature like a stingray or piranha could not have a high attack bonus, especially if they did not have an attack ability so they only have swimming vs. agility as their single basic attack roll. --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:51, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
==distraction abilities==
 
  
You should be able to add ANY ability level except for toughness to a distract roll (close range delay attack vs. intelligence)
+
Note: the three main scratch projects right now (TDW, HoW, Squawk 2nd Ed.) are fantasy/sci-fi with lots of explanations for "unrealistic healing."  IMHO this rule may be decided on in the not-near future.--[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 14:31, 20 June 2011 (PDT)
 
 
Pro:
 
 
 
*distract does not currently have an ability bonus
 
*toughness is by far the most useful ability
 
*players can have fun inventing their own tricks for distracting enemies
 
 
 
Con:
 
 
 
*vague narrative
 
*a player can throw a random ability at an enemy, leaving other players scratching their heads about what happened.
 
 
 
This is a sort of "attack by role-playing."
 
 
 
:Some abilities seem more suited to distract than others: acrobatics, detection, stealth, command seem much more appropriate than craftsmanship and healing. In between are the combat abilities and other movement abilities. --[[User:BFGalbraith|BFGalbraith]] 04:54, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
::Making distract more effective by adding an ability level to it would make support abilities and detection a little more useful, because they give you intelligence.
 
 
 
::Though it makes sense to use command ability to distract, that ability is already very powerful.
 
 
 
::It makes sense to use attack abilities for distractions, but they are already quite powerful, and delaying attacks are part of what separates wrestling from other attack abilities.
 
 
 
::It's not obvious how detection could be used to distract an enemy. (I agree that it's also not obvious how healing or craftsmanship would be used to distract.)
 
 
 
::Movement abilities seem like they would be useful for distracting in environments where they can be used to evade. If these were the ONLY abilities that could be used for distraction, this would help balance the abilities (downside: stealth could not be used for distraction) --[[User:SerpLord|SerpLord]] 14:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
==more realistic healing options==
 
  
 
games without healing ability (dinosaurs and prehistoric animals)
 
games without healing ability (dinosaurs and prehistoric animals)
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*special toughness skills might allow you to be healed more often.
 
*special toughness skills might allow you to be healed more often.
 
*toughness skills that help you be healed?
 
*toughness skills that help you be healed?
 +
 +
==optional death rules==
 +
 +
realistic or brutal games like [[Resilience]] might have death rules that add dramatic tension and character expendability.

Latest revision as of 01:17, 30 June 2011

Toughness is Overpowered[edit]

As the Scratch system has evolved, hit points have gradually increased relative to the damage of attack abilities, so everybody wants to be a tank because hit points guarantee you will last longer.

Currently our official average hit points are about right (3 for an unarmored average person, 4 or 5 for a "squishy" PC, 6 or more for a tank) and the power of our attack abilities is about right (some people say they are too powerful, some say they have been nerfed, so that suggests we have hit the sweet spot.)

So how do we tweak the incentives so that squishy characters will be happy with 4 or 5 hit points, but tanks will still want to have lots of hit points?

We already have the engage action, which helps tanks absorb damage by drawing aggro. In playtesting, healers are more likely to be targeted by holds than high-damage attacks, so wrestling (to increase strength) might actually be better for healers than lots of toughness. Healers and long-range attackers can also take cover.

Bug to Feature[edit]

Context could play a big part here, because this problem is likely to be fixed by the skill system intended for Squawk 2nd Ed. TDW might be the last game in the foreseeable future that uses Scratch without skills. In TDW, there is a really good narrative to why PCs should gain toughness more often than other abilities, which the following text could be added to TDW to explain:

Essence often warps Sorcerers into more powerful forms, increasing their size, natural armor, or other physical alterations that make them more physically resilient. Therefore, it is appropriate for Sorcerers to use essence to gain Toughness more often than other abilities.

If we go with this option, this Toughness balance issue can be tabled until we are using skills in Scratch.

Real Solution[edit]

What if we had a rule for all injured or incapacitated characters (including minions) that between encounters they only heal to barely-healthy, unless they can make a detection, craftsmanship or healing roll to regenerate themselves to full HP?

This would decrease the guarantee that hit points make you last longer, which would be good.
Can you use your roll to heal an ally instead of yourself?
"Yes" makes more narrative sense IMHO. --BFGalbraith 10:17, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
This should be the rule for a "normal" encounter cycle. Depending on the game this could mean a short rest, a month or a year of rehabilitation. Within each game there may be some back-to-back encounters without the opportunity to heal, and there may be longer breaks or full healing services at some points in a long campaign (i.e. "return to town".)
The normal encounter cycle should also be the cycle for changing craftsmanship bonuses.
You should not be able to respec minions in the normal encounter cycle. You need a longer break ("return to town") to replace, modify or retrain your minions.

more realistic healing options[edit]

Note: the three main scratch projects right now (TDW, HoW, Squawk 2nd Ed.) are fantasy/sci-fi with lots of explanations for "unrealistic healing." IMHO this rule may be decided on in the not-near future.--BFGalbraith 14:31, 20 June 2011 (PDT)

games without healing ability (dinosaurs and prehistoric animals)

hardcore

  • HP never goes up during combat
    • damage always represents injuries that take a long time to heal.
    • It never represents physical or psychic pain, suffocation or stunning effects that people can recover from during combat. (This could make the rule incompatible with some settings or other optional rules like skills.)
  • healing still used in combat with death rules?
    • does first aid remove the healer from combat?
      • NO, either you can use healing as a combat action or you don't use healing until hostilities stop. This is all about how you interpret the duration of combat.
        • If you insist on a very quick flow of combat without pauses for maneuvering and orientation (combat takes seconds), then there is not time in a battle to treat multiple injured allies, and it is not necessary or even appropriate to treat injured allies during combat.
        • If combat turns are more like camera shots in an action movie and clashes in a real fight, which are interrupted by pauses and maneuvers that vary in duration (combat takes minutes), there is time in a battle to treat multiple injured allies or treat an ally and then return fire at an enemy.

milder

  • you can only be healed from being incapacitated once per battle. We could give this state a name, like convalescent or wounded.
  • we could also limit each healer to healing one character form injured to healthy once per battle.

healing between battles

  • everybody heals to stamina + 1 between battles (balance and stability - game designers know you will have most of your HP when you enter a battle.)
  • make toughness roll to heal yourself to full HP
  • make healing roll for each ally to heal them to full HP

healing skills

  • special healing skills might be able to heal you when normal healing actions cannot.
  • special toughness skills might allow you to be healed more often.
  • toughness skills that help you be healed?

optional death rules[edit]

realistic or brutal games like Resilience might have death rules that add dramatic tension and character expendability.