Talk:Mano a Mano

No More Success Level or Half-Success

• Getting rid of Success Level and Half Success speeds up and simplifies the system, especially in combat.
• Without Success Level and Half Success we can have an optional fractional ability level rule.
• All the power of sharp weapons becomes damage. Half the power of blunt weapon attacks, rounded down, is damage and the rest is stun. All the power of padded weapons is stun.
• Compare the defense die roll to cover. If the roll is not higher than the cover, the armor blocks the attack, reducing the attack's power by the armor's absorption.
• A character's climbing movement determines how fast he can move while climbing. While a character climbs he can move and perform one quick action per turn. Each turn - whether or not the character moves - make a success roll using the character's climbing ability modifier vs. the difficulty of clinging to the surface or structure the character is climbing. If the character performs an action, add 2 to the difficulty. If the character is moves but does not perform an action, add 1 to the difficulty. If the character is not moving or performing an action, add 2 to his roll. If the character is not successful he looses his grip and falls.

Rename Defense Attack

Q: Is +2 too high of roll modifier under normal __________ circumstances?

A: Yes. If two characters are otherwise equal, a +2 bonus is so high that it's not far from saying narratively that the character with the +2 bonus automatically succeeds. A +1 bonus is an extremely significant advantage.

Guidelines

Most moves are seen by the players to have a total value of one from the following list for a quick action, or a value of 2 for a powerful action:

Advantage : Value

+1 roll bonus : 1

half power attack: 1

Full Power Attack: 2

+2 Roll Bonus: 2

Example:+1 Roll Bonus (value 1) & half power attack (value 1) = powerful action (value 2)

Testing

The exceptions to this would have been outreaching (full power attack + evasion bonus =4) and "defense" (light power attack + evasion bonus = 3). The problem with both these rules is that they slipped into MaM 2007 after testing, so we couldn't remember them off the top of our heads. MaM 2007 hides the actual numbers some place I can't find them, and "Defense" was not labelled something clear like "Defensive Attack." It also left us wondering where the real defense move was.

What did work was sticking to above guidelines. (This is how we managed to reverse engineer the moves without the numbers.) When characters are not injured, they need to be able to massively evade attacks, and when they are injured they still need to be able to do _something_ . It makes a lot of sense to have this be two different moves, a Quick action called a "slip" that can be used in a combo and by injured people, and a powerful action that really is primarily about creating distance between the defender and the attacker (called "evasion") that would be impossible to do limping or as the end of a combo.

What actually tested successfully (in the last session, but which was probably a left over from the 2007 testing session) was Evasion, though no characters were trying to do Evasion as part of a combo or after they were injured (it was just noted that there needed to be an injured version of evasion. It is only coincidental that having "slip" be a quick action the injured could use would also accomplish what "defense" was apparently attempting if used in a combo like other quick actions.)

Q1: Why allow "slip" in a combo if it's more complicated than just having a defensive attack?

Q2: Why is a +2 defensive attack too high?

A1&A2: Here's what's complicated - having a move that has a +2 bonus & also does a half power attack (value of 3 according to guildlelines,) but which can't be used by the people who would need it most (there being no other defensive option) - the injured. ("Outreaching" is supposed to be a special advantage over other moves since only the longest reach can do it, so is intuitive with the guidelines that it would "add up" to be more than other moves. Basic "defense" narratively is not a "special" move.)

What would even be more complicated is to allow a move with a +2 roll modifier into the already extremely-powerful combos.

Combos and Counters

• Should Mano a Mano:Rounds & Mano a Mano:Maneuvering be consolidated? [...] The separation between these sections is challenging when players are trying to figure out what options are available during the combat round.
  • A character's options are basically:
    1. move or hold your ground
    2. counter later or act now
    3. combo or single action
    4. choose an action
  • To present the options in that order:
    1. the first half of Mano a Mano:Rounds should come first
    2. followed by Mano a Mano:Movement
    3. then the second half of Mano a Mano:Rounds which includes Counter and Combo rules (I would call this section Mano a Mano:Actions)
    4. All of the sections describing individual actions (Mano a Mano:Attacking, Mano a Mano:Grappling, Mano a Mano:Maneuvering, Mano a Mano:Thrown Weapons and Mano a Mano:Archery) should be added to the end of Mano a Mano:Actions (as one continuous list? or split into sub-categories?)
    5. A few of the rules in these sections do not define actions and should be moved to before (or after) the list of actions, such as the preamble to Mano a Mano:Grappling and attacking from a distance in Mano a Mano:Attacking.
• Roll for defense against each attack in a combo separately.
• A counterattack happens just before the attack it counters. The counterattack can prevent a strong attack or combo by doing enough stun or damage so the attacker's stun plus damage is greater than half of his health, forcing them to do quick action instead.
  • Movement is independent of actions, so can you also delay (some? all?) of your movement until you counter, or can you only counter against characters who are in your reach when they attack you?
    • Counterattackers would not be moving at all on their turn, and only when attacked, while Evaders would be doing all of their movement on their original turn.
• Remove the reference to "combo rules for attacking multiple targets" because there is no special rule for that anymore. We can now allow a counterattack to be a combo against multiple targets without a complicated explanation. In fact, adding a clause requiring all combo moves to be directed against one target would be more complexity than allowing characters to attack anyone they can reach.
• Specify that counterattack is limited to quick actions when the counterattacking character's damage and stun together is equal to half his health or more.

Rename Aimed or Flanking Attack

Replace "aimed or flanking attack" with "strategic attack." ("Strategic" is a synonym for Aimed and Flanking in this context, not just Tricky.) This a powerful action that gives the character a +1 roll bonus to land a single half-power strike.

Strategic attack is also the name of a military doctrine of bombing infrastructure, but our system isn't operating on that scale, and "Flanking Attack" also reuses the name of a military tactic, so "strategic attack" is good: specific enough that it doesn't confuse the narrative and general enough that it doesn't constrain the narrative. However, I think we should include "subclasses" of strategic attacks in the explanation if there are common types of attacks which are always strategic attacks, but more narratively specific, like a flanking attack.

Getting Rid of Negative Health

It seems like everyone needs more health. See the Mano a Mano:Size Table. But increasing average health does not remove the need for negative health. Negative health lets us make creatures with less health than their athletic ability level(s). To remove this need we could change or remove the effect of athletic abilities on health. For example we could say your athletic abilities cannot give you more than twice your template health, then use a size table like this:

Size Table Health, agility and power are all related to a template's size. The following guidelines should help guide template creation, but some creatures will be stronger or weaker, quicker or clumsier than their mass would suggest.	Health	Agility	Power	Mass	Examples
	0	8	0	< 10 g	hummingbird, small bug
	1	7	1	10-999 g	rat, mouse, largest insects
	2	6	2	1-9 kg	cat, fox, rabbit
	3	5	3	10-39 kg	dog, coyote
	4	4	4	40-199 kg	human, deer, wolf
	6	3	6	200-999 kg	cow, lion, horse, bear, moose
	10	2	10	1-9 tonnes	giraffe, hippo, rhino, elephant
	20	1	15	10-99 tonnes	largest dinosaurs
	30	0	20	> 100 tonnes	largest whales

On the other hand if we drop the contribution of athletic abilities to health, we could allow the character health modifier (the same one used by the new build system) to be developed like an ability. (Using a size table similar to the one above) This would reduce the value of athletic abilities, so we might consider lumping them more or making them more useful. For example, acrobatics can be defined broadly enough to include climbing (there is significant overlap, such as rope climbing, pole climbing, mast climbing and parkour.)

While we are at it we could make all of the template pseudo-abilities developable: speed, agility, health and power, and get rid of strength and grip (which are basically power synonyms). In other words we would expand "build" development from character creation into ongoing character development, leading to the following new build rules:

Extra Speed

A character can have increased or decreased speed if his template has medium or high variance. He can have a -1 or +1 speed modifier if his template speed is greater than 1. If his template speed is 1 or less he can have half or double his template speed. Reduced character speed is worth -1000 CP and increased character speed is worth +1000 CP.

Extra Agility A character can have -1 or +1 agility if his template has low, medium or high variance, -2 or +2 agility if his template has medium or high variance, and -3 or +3 agility if his template has high variance.	Agility	CP
	-3	-1200
	-2	-600
	-1	-200
	0	0
	+1	200
	+2	600
	+3	1200

Extra Health

A character can have as little as 0 total health, but even very fragile characters usually have at least half of their template health. A character can have Extra health up to half of his template health with low variance, as high as his template health with medium variance and up to twice his template health with high variance. Each point of health is worth 200 CP. Extra power can be negative, but it can never be low enough to reduce a character's total health below 0.

How can negative power change health?

Extra Power A character can have as little as 0 total power, but even very weak characters usually have at least half of their template's power. A character can have Extra power up to half of his template power with low variance, as high as his template power with medium variance and up to twice his template power with high variance. If a character has less than -5 Extra power, each point of power below -4 decreases the character's Extra power CP by 1000 CP. Extra power can never be low enough to reduce a character's total power below 0.	Power	CP
	-4	-2000
	-3	-1200
	-2	-600
	-1	-200
	0	0
	1	200
	2	600
	3	1200
	4	2000
	5	3000
	6	4200
	7	5600
	8	7200
	9	9000
	10	11000

Extra Mass

A character can have from -30% to +50% his template's average mass with low variance, from half (-50%) to double (+100%) his template's average mass with medium variance and from a third (-70%) to triple (+200%) his template's average mass with high variance.

Extra Length and Reach

A character can have from -10% to +10% of his template's average length and reach with low variance, from -20% to +30% of his template's average length and reach with medium variance and from -30% to +50% of his template's average length and reach with high variance. Every meter of reach is worth 200 CP, every tenth of a meter of reach is worth 20 CP, and every centimeter of reach is worth 2 CP. For example, if the template reach of a weapon is 1.5 m and the character reach of the weapon is 1.8 m, then the character reach CP is 60. (1.8 m - 1.5 m = 0.3 m which is 30 cm.)

Big characters should have more health, power, mass, length and reach, while smaller characters should have less health, power, mass, length and reach. The following table is a guideline for characters with typical mass, length, health and power relationships, but characters are not required to fit these categories:

Size		Health, Power and Mass		Length and Reach
tiny		less than half average		over 20% less than average
very small		between 1/3 and 2/3 average		between 10% and 30% less than average
small		between half average and average		between 20% less than average and average
normal		between 2/3 average and 50% more than average		between 10% less and 10% more than average
big		between average and twice average		between average and 30% more than average
very big		between 50% more than average and three times average		between 10% and 50% more than average
huge		more than twice average		over 30% more than average

Mechanical vs. Organic Characters

Being a mechanical character is an ability with a special CP of 0, no levels and no modifiers. A mechanical character does not heal, but can be repaired using craftsmanship and abilities which allow characters to modify mechanical characters. Mechanical characters can be repaired more quickly than an organic character heals. Mechanical characters do not require surgery rolls when they are modified.

Characters who do not have this ability are called organic characters. The main difference between mechanical and organic characters is how they are affected by trauma. (A very complex robot which can heal itself but can be easily destroyed by an attempted modification might not have the mechanical character ability.) Mechanical characters do not decay as quickly as organic creatures, so they can be easier to resuscitate from fatal injuries.

There is a question as to weather or not the characteristic of being organic vs. being mechanical should have a Character Point value. For the time being we are just trying to balance out the advantages so that this characteristic is character-point neutral.

How fast can mechanical characters be repaired? Are repairs more like modifications or like medicine/healing rolls? If mechanical character ability had a level it might be a bonus to being repaired.

Do mechanical characters recover from stun like normal characters? I would lean toward "yes" as there are lots of temporary mechanical problems even a simple machine can work out itself, especially autonomous and semi-autonomous robots with redundant systems (NASA probes often recover themselves after the ground crew writes them off as down for the count, and they usually have minor problems which require adjustment and slow down the mission but don't cause lasting damage.)

Combat Abilities

Currently we only have two kinds of combat abilities:

Weapon Proficiency

Abilities which modify combat modifiers are weapon proficiencies, because you have one combat modifier per weapon. Weapon Proficiencies can be as specific as a single weapon or as broad as you like (you could have a weapon proficiency which applies to all weapons) but they apply to any use of the weapon's combat modifier.

Athletic Abilities

Athletic abilities improve your health, allowing you to fight longer even when you get hurt. Your best two athletic abilities affect your health, and it doesn't really matter which athletic abilities they are.

The most obvious thing missing is abilities that affect how you fight with a given weapon - abilities which give you an advantage to using certain classes of actions over others. For example experience competing in wrestling might improve your grappling more than it improves your striking ability. How would these abilities work? Would they add another column to the equipment list, or would they give you special modifiers (like the Grp, Atk, Par modifiers.) or would they be added directly to combat rolls? Would we have some combat modifiers be independent of the equipment list, and not affected by which weapon you use?

Limitations

We need to expand the coverage of limitations. Mostly these are setting/game design decisions that affect character creation and development.

• Template limitations not currently on the template:
  • Sexes (based on template? Should templates have a "sexes" property?)
  • Age limits (minimum age described by template, maximum age limits)
  • natural abilities: I removed the following text from game design/templates/abilities: "If the ability cannot be improved by exercise or experience or can only be improved to a certain level, the ability should have a limit (Lim). This limit is the maximum number of ability levels a character of this template can develop in this ability." It seems like there are some circumstances where it would be appropriate to have this limit, for example a character might be a robot which cannot be trained to do tasks it has not already been programmed to do.
• CP Allowance
  • How much CP for heroic characters?
  • How much CP for super-heroic characters?
• Equipment
  • starting equipment (character creation)
  • shopping (character development)
• PCs vs. NPCs
  • templates
  • occupations
  • abilities?
  • equipment
• Character ability level limits?
  • character creation
  • training
  • occupation-limited abilities?

The rest are GM-preference/style/playability/best-practices limitations:

• Maimed characters/missing limbs - the rules currently say you need the GM's permission.
• Disabilities
  • A game should allow no disabilities beyond those built into the templates, or at least have limitations like one disability per character, no more than -1000 CP of disabilities, and only those disabilities that have unavoidable consequences.
  • A game with a GM may have a bigger disability list because he GM can moderate the role-playing of those disabilities. Players need the GM's permission to give characters disabilities beyond template disabilities. The GM may have stricter limitations than the game requires, not allow some disabilities, or decide on a case-by-case basis.

Ability Checks in Combat

At times a GM might ask players to perform an ability check during a round of combat. My opinion is that players should not add their ability bonus to the check unless they specifically have established that they are using the ability. If the check is called before the player's turn and the player stated the use of the ability before the beginning of combat. The player would be allowed to add their ability bonus. If the check is called after the player's turn then the player would not be allowed to add their ability bonus the unless they specifically use at least a quick action to use the ability. --ulrich 11:00, 2005 Jul 2 (CEST)

A classic example is watching out for traps during combat. If the traps are so well hidden that an ability roll is required, at least one of the PCs should spend a whole turn looking for traps instead of fighting. If the story requires the characters to fall into a trap, it should be impossible to find (or impossible to avoid if you do find it.) If this is not a good time in the story for the characters to fall into a trap, or if the characters have been specifically looking for traps as they go along, it doesn't make sense to ask them to make routine checks for traps. --SerpLord 15:17, 8 December 2005 (CET)