TheStarsAreRight:CarlNote4

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CARL (1)
Carl doesn't say much on the way back from the meeting with Roderick Usher. He is lost in thought, concentrating and not paying much attention to sights and sounds. As the hotel elevator approaches your floor, he raises his head and looks around, first at the elevator boy, then at you with a small smile.
"That went well," he says. "I think." He pauses. "Don't you?"
REDLAND (2)
Redland looks around for a couple of seconds, making sure there are no lurking bystanders who can overhear, before replying: "Yeah, thanks to my godlike charisma I got something for nothing... and since the Nightsiders are well known for dispensing favors for free, and since I, you know, completely understood everything that went on and am absolutely certain there will be no hidden strings involved, I'm feeling pretty good about it... "Now your plan to have the Nightsiders assist you in saving the world hinges on my ability to talk Rebecca into breaking her bond with Auda. So, no pressure..."
CARL (3)
Carl smiles, a bit dryly. "None at all.
"The Elders -- one of whom rides with Mister Usher now -- are infamous in our group. It's a watchword with us: Anything the Elders make with their powers has a hidden snag. I'm very much concerned about that, regarding the bond-breaking; though at the same tie I am quite confident they can do what he promised. And all the way back here, I've been trying to think of a way the Elders could reach in and twist *my* half of this bargain, and I cannot. What he wants me to do comes from the King's powers alone.
"I do, however, need to watch over Emma Hamilton. If the King awakens her, makes it possible for her to conceive unknowingly, well, that doesn't say anything about who might be the father of the child, or when, or why.
"As for Rebecca, well, I'd think that you might ordinarily start by convincing her husband. Hmm?"
REDLAND (4)
For several long moments after Carl finishes speaking, Redland is quiet. He begins to say something and then, apparently, thinks better of it. Finally he begins: "I know that one problem we have, is a lack of communication, facilitated by a propensity for some of us to keep secrets. I don't know why it is that that the others keep their secrets. On my own behalf, I'm sure that some of it comes from the wrong place. That is, I often feel weak and useless, but having secret knowledge gives me a feeling of power. I like to think, however, that most of the time, I keep quiet because it is better for everyone else if they don't know. Not so much that ignorance is bliss, but moreso that in many instances, what you don't know can't hurt you. My own arrogance probably sways me to believe that I'm protecting people when I'm actually seeking power... I..." Jack falls silent again while he searches for what he wants to say. "I... I have some thoughts, but I just feel like I shouldn't tell you at this time. Partly because you might try to stop me and partly because you might not try to stop me. I apologize. "Anyhow, as regarding breaking the bond, I guess there are at least four people I need to convince, and you're right, the order in which I proceed is probably relevant."
CARL (5)
Carl listens, standing in the hall, eyes resting on Jack's face. When Jack is done he sighs."Secrets." Carl shakes his head. "I'd like to say I don't believe in them, but that's not entirely true. We all have secrets that really are ours to keep. Some of us know things that must be kept quiet, in order to help others -- or so we believe." An edge creeps into his words, something bitter. "Most of the time, the secrets we make up, the little plans, the information we hide -- those things hurt people. Hurt our friends, hurt us, hurt countless others.""Are you seeking power, Jack?" Carl's voice is mild again, his gaze curious. "I'm glad you told me. I don't want power, personally. I didn't want this job. I accepted it because, at the time, there was simply no one else I knew who I dared offer it to, who would take it." A small smile. "It's the sort of job you really ought to give to someone who doesn't want it."But yes -- you are right. People dont' talk. They keep secrets. From one another, and from me. Mostly from me... and time and time again, the things I didn't know -- because someone didn't say -- means my friends get hurt. They die, Jack. Or they suffer. Or the people they love suffer. Or we all do. And every time that happens -- everytime someone I trusted and loved makes a mistake they wouldn't have made if I'd been allowed to do what I'm supposed to do, and help -- it's as though they've turned the knife in my chest, Jack."Carl turns the key in his lock, pushes open the door."Would you like to come in for a moment?"
REDLAND (6)
"Thanks, don't mind if I do." Redland enters and quickly takes a seat. "Hmmmm. As to power, I do not in general desire it. With power comes both responsibility and the ability to really screw things up. One reason I became a professor is that it absolved me of these dangers. Any mistakes I could make in my works would be caught in peer review before any harm befell anyone. Also, as was most famously stated by Lord Acton, 'Power tends to corrupt'. As such, I tend to shun power whenever possible. Does this make me a coward? Probably, and it is a charge I've never denied. "What I want is so banal as to be embarrassing. I want people to listen to me... but that's really neither here nor there... "Okay, let me come clean to you (at least partially) with my latest little 'scheme.' Maybe it's for the best. While talking with Usher, we made two deals. Yours required that you do something to Emma Hamilton and that you not inform her of what you were doing. Mine required that I try to persuade you to accept his deal. Do you see how this might intrigue me? I see an obvious wedge that I can use to 'meddle.' What I'm not sure about, is whether I should or not. I do need advice (I was planning to ask Ms. Kane), but if I tell you, then you become complicit. It might also violate the deal that I made. If it isn't already clear what I'm talking about, do you want me to make it more clear? Or should I keep it to myself?"
CARL (7)
Carl lets out his breath slowly, somewhere between a sigh and a soundless whistle. He watches you gently, distantly. "You've gone this far, perhaps you'd better continue. No, it isn't clear, at least to me. You mentioned in Lord Usher's company that you had some sort of side deals going, that I might have just inadvertently made useless or unnecessary -- but I don't know what they are. Or were. "You see, you didn't need to persuade me, did you? I am not certain I understand why it is so important to Usher that you did. Is the 'deal' you spoke of with someone else, then? Something else? On Apr 10, 2009, at 12:54 PM, Robert Bullis wrote:
REDLAND (8)
"Did you ever read Homer? The Greeks seemed to prefer their heroes to be like Achilles. You know, the strongest, the best. I always preferred Odysseus. I'd rather obtain a victory through cunning than through skill... "Anyhow, that's just to say that I'm always looking for an angle to exploit. Whatever the situation, I'm always trying to see where I can seize an advantage for myself... "Earlier I mentioned that I don't care for power or responsibility. To that end, I'm inclined to leave the big plans to others. You know, the 'save the world' plans. You've got a plan, Pentheus has a plan, the King of Fate has a plan. My plans are mostly small. I try to look out for the individuals, you know, along the lines of the 'bond breaking' thing. In that case, whether or not it will be good for the world, I think it will be good for Rebecca and Henrik, and that's my concern. "The scheme I'm referring to, in regards to Usher, is, for the most part, very minor. In the conversation, the key point (that I think I could exploit), is that your agreement required that you not tell Emma Hamilton what you were doing. However, it didn't restrict me in any way. "So, what I'm thinking, is that, if I want to, I can tell Ms. Hamilton what Usher is planning. That is my natural inclination. I mean, I don't know how the Fae procreate or anything about, er, you know, Ms. Hamilton's... activities... but she may make different... decisions if she were aware of what could happen. "What I have to weigh, before making any decision, is: 1) Will this interfere with your plans?2) Will this interfere with Usher's plans (and do I care)?3) What would Ms. Hamilton want? That is, would she prefer not to know?4) Do I feel okay about deceiving Usher this way? After all, it certainly appears that he is doing me a substantial favor for no cost.5) Are there any other consequences that I haven't taken into account? After all, I don't have a particularly good understanding of the relevant players or forces moving about in the world. "That's really all there is to it. I guess it's a pretty small thing, but these are the kinds of things that weigh on my mind."
CARL (9)
"Ah," Carl says, rueful. "No -- it's not a small thing at all. It is, I think, very large -- and it strikes me particularly painfully, because it exposes my hypocrisy. I just got through telling you how much I hate secrets, didn't I? And yet here I am, dealing in them. Something I do not like, have never liked. Feels as though I am wronging others in order to help them; and that does not sit well." He rubs his face with a free hand, once, before looking at you with a sigh. "Here it is, you see. I have asked for Usher's help, and he has named his price. That price has three parts: one, that she concieve, in part because of the King's intevention; two, that I not tell her in advance that I have intervened; and three, that the King announces afterwards that the miracle is because of his intervention. "My natural inclination, were I to do this thing, would be to offer it to her as a gift, both from the King's hand and from mine. Then she may choose as she wishes; everyone seems to feel that she would choose not to concieve, but that would be her choice. If she does not know, however, and goes to someone in the sure knowlege that she cannot conceive -- am I not betraying her trust by exposing her to unwanted motherhood? Never mind that she might come to accept and love the child -- she could have chosen, and I did not give her that chance. My sin, you see."Usher believes that if I went to her and offered her the choice of accepting the gift, she would refuse it. I believe he is correct. But I have already agreed not to do that. If she were to be told, someone else would have to do it. As you say." Carl smiles. "And they would have to do so after the fact, so she could not take action to avoid the King's blessing. That is my preference, anyway."Now, if you, or anyone, went to her and told her, she would be angry with me for tampering with her -- I might forever lose her trust -- but she would again have the chance to choose. If for whatever reason she chose not to allow a child to be born (and Usher at least believes that she would choose so) then once again I get no deal from Usher, who requires that she concieve and that I take some credit."So -- what do I stand to gain or lose? Usher's support for my plan, certainly. Emma's trust. These by themselves are important -- and the nature of contracts with the Fae, the People, whomever are very much like those of faery lore; you could not be faulted for taking advantage of the loophole you have found. Certainly the nightfolk have delighted in such things in the past. But what would you gain from doing so? "Jack, let me be honest. Usher's offer is valuable to me, but not vital. I need the Fae more than the Elders; and I believe both Medea's good will and Emma's are important to that. I cannot afford to alienate Emma for Usher. But when Usher made his pitch, it was as though a switch was thrown -- I came to believe in that moment that the child, the unlook'd-for miracle child, was vitally important and needs to be. When I get these feelings, I am urged to act upon them -- in this case, that means either to go to her directly with my gift, or to accept gratefully your implied offer to go yourself. In my mind, she must know -- and she must, for whatever reason, have the child nonetheless, of her own free will and with love. "Perhaps that is the hidden snare, that the child might be conceived under circumstances that seem like a betrayal. Perhaps. In which case, telling her is even more important, for all that I myself am constrained. "But there is another piece to this, one that I have pondered all the way home; one that so far I have not resolved." Carl stares at you earnestly. "You see, Emma Hamilton is in love with the King of Fate, and he I believe with her, though he has turned away. By rights, that child would -- should -- be theirs." Carl goes silent to let you absorb it all.
REDLAND (10)
"So, if I were to attempt to perform a simple cost/benefit analysis, it sounds like my telling Ms. Hamilton generates the following payoffs: Costs: 1) High probability of wrecking your deal with the Nightsiders 2) Moderate probability of causing Ms. Hamilton to distrust you3) Moderate probability of causing Mr. Usher to feel personal animosity towards me Benefits:1) Hmmmm. a small probability of hindering the KoF's ability to procreate? "It's difficult, of course, to ascertain the value of these things, but at first glance, it would appear that telling her results in a negative expected value. "As to what I'd personally gain by telling her: Hmmm. Nothing that I can really think of. I have never spoken to Ms. Hamilton, so I have no particular interest in her well-being. Also, my inclination would be to tell her anonymously (or to have another source tell her), so I wouldn't expect any gratitude (if any were to be forthcoming, which is unclear). "All that being said, I'm still inclined to inform her (if possible, given that she lives in Switzerland, last I heard). To do otherwise seems 'wrong'... it would be treating her as a pawn instead of an individual. I'm willing to do the wrong thing if the stakes are high enough, but I'm just not sure they are in this instance. "I won't ask you whether I should tell her or not. I think that if you told me to do it, you would be in violation of the agreement (so, I guess whether you indicate I should tell her or not tell her, the result would be the same, namely that I wouldn't tell her). In fact, I need to consider if the very act of discussing it with you constrains me from telling her. I think not, since I discovered the 'plan' independently, but it is a point I will need to contemplate before I decide anything. Ugh. I think I'm confusing myself... "Sorry. I was hoping to think this through in a logical fashion, but I'm not sure I've made anything clear. Anyhow, as soon as I get back to my hotel, I'll reconstruct your agreement with Mr. Usher and try to parse out whether or not I'm still free to act. Until then, if you think there are any costs or benefits I've left out or if I'm missing anything else, feel free to let me know."
CARL (11)
Carl sighs. "It seems as though thinking things through "logically" means treating *all* of us like pawns. Kings included. Compassion is the missing piece -- a thing I value highly. A thing, I think, essential to me and to my Kingship. Action without compassion is the worst of what I have accused the King of Fate."So you see, you have actually done somewhat to dissuade me from the deal, not to persuade me to follow through, and now I wonder just what Usher expects to get from it.... One should always wonder what the Elders want, when they agree to act at all."The only other costs, or benefits perhaps, that I can think of to consider are those I already brought up -- the effect of the thing on the King of Fate, his relationship with us and with Emma -- and the import and consequence of Emma's future child. This last being more than an idle fancy, since we are already considering Pentheus in the light of a future revolt by just such children as these, and their ability to save us all."
REDLAND (12)
"Hmmmm. Well, if you decide to abrogate your deal with Mr. Usher, let me know. I cannot in good conscience have him arrange a miracle for me if I have dissuaded you from proceeding. "Dang, I can't help but feel that this is one of those situations where I should have kept my mouth shut (always a difficult proposition with me, to be sure). I feel that my talking about it has made us all worse off... "In a transparent attempt to change the subject (before we do ourselves any more damage), it's interesting that you should mention the 'children of/against Pentheus'. When the Dark Pharaoh sent me the vision in Los Angeles, there was a curious aftereffect of the vision. Two people stood out in my(?) eyes: Rebecca and your son, Robert. They had a peculiar... glow... a potential, or something. Like most such things, I don't really understand what it meant. I wasn't sure whether I should mention it to you, since I don't know if it means anything, but since I've already started revealing my 'hidden' knowledge (and since it went so well last time), I figure I may as well continue."
CARL (13)
Carl looks surprised. "I don't know. That worries me; when something like the Dark Pharaoh points something out, it's good to know why. Did the effect fade? Who else was present at the time, that did *not* stand out?"
REDLAND (14)
"The effect did fade after a few hours. Hmmm. Let's see, I guess it would be pretty much everyone. That is, Julienne (sp?), Henrik, you, Valentine, Boris, Auda, Roxanne, Andi, Victor, and I guess everyone else at the hotel. I didn't think to look in a mirror (I was a bit dazed), but I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing anything interesting. "I did find it odd that Valentine wasn't glowing, since he was the central figure in my vision. I'll try to follow up if I can, but I think the communication between the Pharaoh and I is mostly one way."
CARL (15)
(OOC: The correct spelling is 'Julian', like the man's name. Just the way it is.) "Well, anything involving my son has my interest, as you might imagine! Hmm... no, I can't think anything in particular that might set those two uniquely apart from all of the others, but if they have been marked by the Pharaoh, then it's good we know."Jack, please don't regret talking. There's no better way to find the hidden costs and traps in things. That's all that's happened here; we're both more aware of what might go wrong, and that's something we ought to know, if we're going to meddle in peoples' lives. I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad you decided to speak up."Carl stands, goes to a briefcase, and opens it, removing a small flask and a couple of glasses. "Would you like a brandy?"
REDLAND (16)
"Ah. No thanks. I'm just a bit paranoid about the ol' noggin, you know. I try to avoid anything (well, other than ideas) that will alter my thinking. Plus, didn't the Americans amend their Constitution to make drinking illegal? Crazy... Anyhow, if you had some milk or a vanilla Coke or something, that'd be great, otherwise, I'm okay as is. Sorry to be such a stick in the mud... "Well, I'll try to keep my ear to the ground on the Rebecca/Robert connection. I'll poke around a bit and see what I can discover... "Hmmmm. I suppose while I have the chance, I should get your advice on Pentheus. Here's what I was thinking: "I'd tell them that, while the King of Life didn't feel that he could make it himself, he was sending Boris and I as emissaries to witness the field test and help them with their observations. "I figured I'd ask them if they knew of a guy named Donal (matching a certain description) and if I could talk to him. I'd like to square this away for Laura as soon as possible, and I figure their answer to the question might give me some information about how trustworthy they are. "I should probably warn them to be wary of sabotage to their equipment, as I'm not sure what the King of Fate's group did while they were in New York. I'd hate for the KoF's idiocy to come back to haunt me. "I'd like to mention that there is a group called 'The Brotherhood of the Beast' who is likely responsible for the murder of their prospectors out in Los Angeles. I can see if they know anything more about this 'cult'. "Other than that, I'll try to suss out some details on the location and the scope of the field test. I'll see what their expectations are for me and Boris. I can then pass this information on to you, so that if you guys are still planning to view the test 'unofficially', you'll be better informed and can show up early to scout things out if you want. "I do want to reiterate my objections to this part of the plan, though. I think that spying on potential allies is not a good pillar on which to build a relationship. I'm also concerned that Rebecca, Henrik, Auda, and/or Valentine might do something 'stupid'. Frankly, it would be hard for me to be less excited about watching a 'blood sacrifice' (just thinking about it makes me want to vomit), but I think that Pentheus has a useful plan to protect the world, and I'd hate for our group to botch it up. "Oh. I also recall that Pentheus had offerred to let us talk to the... victim. I know Henrik wanted to do this, but since he won't be going officially, I'll try to take this on as well, though I have to confess, I don't really want to."
CARL (17)
"No milk, sorry. And no, it isn't illegal to drink liquor, only to sell it. I could brew you some tea if you like...?" He pauses, waiting for your reply before continuing."So let's talk about Pentheus. And the Brotherhood of the Beast too."The things you plan to say sound fine. When were you expecting to get in touch with them? If you can wait a day or so, I can try to get some information from Theo's people, see exactly what they know and have done here. Mentioning the Brotherhood will probably raise a few questions -- like how you know about their prospectors, and how much you know of what they were doing there -- but aside from keeping the old man and the mule out of Pentheus' eye, I see no danger there."I'd advise you not to mention South Dakota, at least not until they do. These folks, however noble their plans, strike me as the sort that don't take kindly to having their works sussed out before they're ready to present them. Not to mention that it's not good to show you know more than you have to in advance, when dealing with unknowns." Carl smiles, and sips his drink. "Now I'm not going to argue the merits of the Pentheus plan with you. I don't like it; you know that. At its best it makes me damned uneasy. But at its worst it's better than nothing at all. The Devil you know can be dealt with; the Devil you don't know might not. That's the only reason I am not acting against them; I really don't feel good about this, but I'm trying to be pragmatic. And honest; you've been candid with me, Jack, and I think we both need that candor. "So why, after all this, do I want us there in South Dakota? Three reasons. One is to take stock of what they have, what we're up against. Another is to stand by to help them out if something goes wrong. And it may. Simple error, treachery, underestimation ... who knows?"The third reason is to have someone speak to the victim. I appreciate your willingness, especially since you say you don't want to. But if you can speak to him -- or her -- with candor and an open mind, we may learn a lot about Pentheus we don't know. Is this a wholly voluntary sacrifice? If so, then why? how was he chosen, and by whom? What is his perception of the process he has undergone, and what does he understand will happen in the field? "Of course there's no reason we can't bring Henrik in to speak to him, if he's at the site.... if there's time."
REDLAND (18)
"Ah. Some tea would be great. Thanks..." As is often the case when discussing things, Jack has a pad of paper and a pencil which he is using to take notes. As he talks he seems to be checking things off. "Let's see. I figured I'd drop them a line soon to let them know that I'd arrived back in N.Y. and that I'd be ready to go whenever they wanted to head out. I can certainly hold off a day or so (I'd imagine) before discussing anything significant. It would probably be a good idea to find out what the King of Fate has been up to in regards to Pentheus (if anything). "I agree that keeping Milo out of the line of conversation would be wise. I think they've had dealings with each other before, but I don't believe that Milo would thank me for bringing him to their attention. "As to the Brotherhood of the Beast, I, of course, know next to nothing about them. I'd probably just indicate that that's who the King of Fate believed had murdered the Pentheus employees. "Is it the case that Pentheus hadn't mentioned Dakota? I guess we heard that from Medea. You're right, no sense in mentioning that up front. Though, unless I have (what I think is) some compelling reason, I usually like to put all my cards on the table. "You don't want to discuss the merits of the Pentheus plan? But I'm sure that if we kicked that horse a few more times, it'd get moving again. "That's a good point, that things could go wrong. Pentheus probably has less experience dealing with Outsiders than a lot of you guys. Of course, I still think it'd be better to go in openly. We could still help them if things go wrong. In fact, you'd probably be more help if you were with them openly then if you were working covertly. That being said, I know that you personally can't take part, given your status. Is it just personal preference for everyone else? "As to speaking with the (presumably) volunteer victim... I mean, it's bad enough that I have to watch this person die, it just makes it that much worse knowing them personally in some way. However, I agree that this is something that needs to be done, and since Pentheus has agreed to allow us to speak with the victim, I will avail myself of this opportunity, if at all possible. Perhaps it would be best to write down a list of questions/topics we want to ask. I'll check in with Henrik as well, since I know this was a particular concern of his. However, if Henrik is there unofficially, I'd rather he not talk to the victim. If everything goes according to plan, Pentheus will never know you guys were there."
CARL (19)
Carl chuckles, waiting for the water to boil."The Brotherhood. Let's see. I don't know all that much about them either, but they are an old and familiar name. Insofar as I recall, the Brotherhood of the Beast is a loose association of sorcerors and cultists that goes back a couple of centuries. The last I heard, there were something less than a dozen key members -- sorcerors of considerable power -- who were quite different from one another but connected by common goals. They were surrounded by personal organizations, as well as by a "church" of sorts dedicated to the worship of Nyarlathotep -- your Black Pharaoh, but in another guise."He glances at you briefly, one eyebrow raised. "The Brotherhood is well-organized, and its members have a lot of resources, both personal and financial. They also have ties to other groups, such as other Nyarlathotep cults. The one key member I have personally met, a man who calls himself Baron Hauptmann, has been active in Easter Europe since at least 1800. Hauptmann is a body-jumper; he knows a technique to transfer his "self" into an unwitting victim, eventually taking them over and living on in a new, presumably younger, body. we had a run-in with Hauptmann about two years ago, and imprisoned him in the Tibetan sanctuary. Hopefully he's still there. "The Brotherhood practices a lot of the more common cultist activities -- worship of the Outsiders, summoning nasty critters, calling forth the so-called Outer Gods to lay waste to enemies, blood sacrifice, and so on. One of the more unusual of their works was an attempt to create a living doorway -- in essence, breeding and raising a young man to become a physical portal for Nyarlathotep to enter the world. The young man, Edward Chandler, rebelled against their teachings and refused to let himself be so used. His rift with the Brotherhood cost them plenty I think; Chandler went on to found New World Industries, and invest an awful lot into occult research. I understand that a lot of Pentheus' initial groundwork comes from researchers who once worked for Chandler."Other than Chandler and Hauptmann, the only other main man I can recall was a Chinese fellow who showed up in a lot of Hauptmann's correspondence. I wish I remembered his name, but I don't. I ment several of the Brotherhood's sorcerors in Tibet, but they were not leaders, merely competent second-rank members. There must be a lot of those."
REDLAND (20)
"Hmmmm. So, the Brotherhood and Pentheus have a link, to some extent, in Chandler/New World Industries. I wasn't aware of this. And now you mention a powerful Chinese 'sorceror' involved with the Brotherhood. Hmmmm. Shoot. It's been awhile now, and I can't recall the specifics from my original vision from the Dark Pharaoh, in regards to the tattoos. I know that the tattoos were being created by folks from East Asia, but I can't recall if they were Chinese, something else, or if I didn't know for sure. Did you see anything about this in your visions? "It's probably not important, but if Pentheus was building it's machines off of what it learned from New World Industries (which I believe did not include the tattoo knowledge), I wonder who they're pirating for the tattoo information. It could certainly be original research, I suppose. Also, there is some chance they have another more nefarious connection with the Brotherhood."
CARL (21)
"Right in one, Jack!" Carl brightens. "There is indeed a Chinese connection somewhere. We've seen the tattoos before, and they do come out of China. Or something like them does anyhow. There's a Chinese sorceror who works with us, Lee Feng, who knows the patterns."
REDLAND (22)
"If Pentheus is making transactions with the Brotherhood, that'd be a bit disturbing, though perhaps not surprising. If you were looking to 'talk' to the Outsiders, a group like that would probably be your best bet. Maybe they had some sort of falling out? Eh. Possibly they have nothing to do with each other, other than a single skirmish in the desert. Well, I'll see what I can find out about this, while I'm at it. I suppose if things go according to plan at the field test and we decide to join up with them in some capacity, these things will become clearer. However, if things go badly, it couldn't hurt to learn as much as possible before we part company. "Hmmmm. Is there anything else we need to discuss about Pentheus? I'll certainly need to organize my 'to-do' list before I meet with them."